YESTERDAY'S SITTING.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1270, 27 October 1911, Page 6

YESTERDAY'S SITTING.

s FAMILY SETTLEMENT PROPOSALS. h i F THE DEFERRED PAYMENT SYSTEM. * The House met at 2.30 p.m. T Mr. MASSEY asked the Primo Minister * when he proposed to circulate the Supplementary Estimates. It would be for the g convenience of members that they should be circulated a day or two beforo they wero brought up for consideration. a The PRIME MINISTER, replied that ho s would follow tho usual coiiTse and cirou- o lato tho Estimates ns soon as ho could, s Probably they would be brought down y with, the Appropriation Bill. c The Famijy Settlement Lands Bill was v introduced by Governor's Message. i: The PRIME MINISTER said ho did u not contemplato that there would be timo c this stesion to deal with the important t proposals embodied in tho Bill, but ho n desired that tho Bill should be circulat- I ed, so that it might be considered by the J country. It proposed a system by which e settlers would be enabled to purchase a land on a deferred payment system, with i; tho Crown acting as intermediary". Hβ li was satisfied that some advanced system v was necessary to ensuro a nioro rapid c settlement of land. Tho proposal was b that the fee simplo of land should bo a convoyed to nnd vested in tho Crown and s disposed of as Crown lands under the a deferred payment system. Provision was \ mado that if the total pavment exceeded c , the prico at whioh tho land was acquired ,] by the Crown, the excess was to be paid f to the original owner with interest at 4 a per cent, for ten years, and when tho \ total payments fell short of the prico p the owner would pay to the Crown tho j. amount of tho deficiency with interest, ,J tho excess or the deficiency being provided from tho proceeds from the pur- T chase of tho land. There would bo de- „, ducted from tho total all moneys spent upon the land by the Crown on surveys, roads, bridges, and other works necessary „ to enable it to be subdivided and settled .R and also a sum equal to one-quarter per cent, to cover the expena of administer- I' ing the Act. I- , . No Ballot for the Land. The purchase money referred to was to bo seenred to the owuer of tho land by si tho issue of debentures at 1 per cone, p under the Land for Settlements Act, u 1908. .payable 11 years aftor tho date of o purchase, Any dispute between tlio own- *

or and tho Crown was to bo referred to arbitration. Tho land was to bo disposed of by tender or by public auction. Mr. Massoy: "Getting away from tho ballot system." The Prime Minister said this Bill ' did not deal with Crown lands. On pay- ' ment of a deposit of five per cent, of tho purchaso money, tho Land Board would issue to the purchaser of an allotment a liconso for ten years, and the yearly feo in respect and the license would be an amount equal to 10 per cent, of the price of tho land with interest at four per cent., payable in half-yearly instalments in advance. The. license would contain conditions ns to residence and improvements, and tho Bill provided that at .any timo after the expiration of five years tho purchaser of an allotment might acquire the freehold by discharging tho balanco of his liability. Compulsory Acquisition of Native Land. An important section of the Bill provided that wherever a railway or rond was under construction, or about to be constructed, tho Government might cause a map to bo prepared, showing the position of all Crown and private lands to which the railway or road would give or increase access. Private land in this connection included both European and Native land, but not land occupied by tho Natives themselves. Wherever the private lands were suitable for settlement, they were to bo acquired by the State at a price agreed upon with tho owner. If necessary tho land would be acquired under the Land hi Settk-ments Act. This was the first occasion upon which the Government had proposed to take Native lands compulsorily. They all recognised that, with the demand esisting in this country for land, there could not be distinctions drawn between Europeans and Natives so long as the Natives were properly safeguarded, as they were under this Bill. (Hear! hear!) As a sequence to this Bill he hoped to submit legislation which would enable tho Natives to work their lands by receiving the benefits of the State Advances Department. Hitherto thcro had been many refusals, but, in dealing with tho land in this country, both Europeans and Natives must bo recognised. Ho proposed to enablo this branch of this important subject to be dealt with on practical lines. All private lands shown on the map to which he had referred, togother with all tho Crown lands, were to be divided into such areas as tho Government might determine, and into three classes: Family settlement lands, individual settlement lands, and ordinary land settlement lands. Family settlement lands wero to bo divided into family settlement areas, sufficient for tho maintenance of not fewer than ten nor more than twenty families, situated ns near as practicable to tho railway or road under construction. A family was defined as father, mother, and children under sixteen. A family settlement was not to excted 400 acres, and no family was to hold more than one such settlement. Families desirous of being grouped together woro to be so grouped as far as possible. Preference would be given in the order of tho number of children under sixteen in the applicant's family, and where that number was equal preference would bo given according to the fitness of the applicants for the cultivation of the lands. No preference would be ! given merely on the ground that one applicant had more capital than another, and no ballot would be made. Successful applicants would bo entitled to the . optional tenure, except where the land ', was national endowment, in which case < they would bo entitled to a renewable | lease. Indiridual settlement lands would j be disposed of to singlo men or women widows, or widowers, or married couples ] without children, and tho allotments • would bo restricted to 300 acres. Pro- f feronce would be given in the order of j the fitness of tho applicants for the cultivation of tho land, and no preference ; would be given in respect of capital, and j the ballot would not Iμ used. Ordinary i settlement lands would bo dispored of according to tho provisions of tho Land i for Settlement Act. It is proposed to repeal the section of the Land Act .dealing with special settlement areas. Scope of tho Bill. The area of land to bo acquired in any one year would not exceed 750,000 acres, and would not be above a cost of .£1,000,000. But the Government by 8 this system would not require to raise a million sterling per year—tho amount ' wouid.be payable by debenture. Ho felt f sure that this measure would enablo J members of tho House and tho public to f fully consider an additional system of l obtaining lands which was so important r to New Zealand, and by a method that , would not interfero with tho existing , land laws of the country or the con- i tinuanco of the purchases under the Laud for Settlements Act. ! Mr. MASSEY said he had thought at ' first that tho Government wero about to f adopt his family home protection pro- * posals, but in that ho was disappointed. \ However, he hoped to introduce it him- i self next session, either from that sido of i the House or the other. Ho did not g think it necessary to discuss these proposals at any length just now, seeing that t it was not proposed to put the Bill on j tho Statute Book this session. So far as e tho general principle was concerned, the j. Opposition were in favour of providing j land for the landless on absolute security j. of tenure, so long as there, could bo uo ! p serious loss to the State. Tho Right Hon. gentleman had adopted part of tho Opposition policy to that extent. The new .f ( idea seemed to l>9 simply an extension \ of tho Land Settlement Finance Act. s The principle of that Bill was absolutely ( right, and ho believed that we had i> placed in that measure a valuable piece 0 of legislation on tho Statute Book. It required, however, to be carefully watch- c ed, safeguarded, and administered, be- ]) causo land was being purchased under t that Act at extreme prices. Settlers would have -no difficulty so long as pre- [y sent prices were maintained, but if anything in the nature of a slump occurred, then he was afraid that some of those r, settlers would get into difficulties and the sl loss would fall on the State. The pro- f> posal to tako Native lands compulsorily I was an important one. While ho was not n altogether opposed to the idea, he did not C think it was necessary, because the P Natives wero willing to sell at fair prices. Even at tho present time there " wore 418,000 acres before tho Maori Land J l ' Boards available for settlement. What j< wo had to do was to see- that the Natives " got a fair prico for their lands, and that 'J sufficient should be left for their main- J; tenance and occupation by them. The J' money for the lands acquired could be I* paid to the Public Trustee, so that the ° Natives could not waste or squander it. f : Mr. M'LAREN congratulated the le Leader of the Opposition on what he ?' said wero his ideals. " Sir James Carroll's Doctrine. 0] Sir James CARROLL said they should ol act in the direction of giving every as- sl sistanco to the Maoris to utilise their ii own lands. Ho had always hinted and ki suggested this doctrine since years and bi years ago. He could not seo how they „• could settle the Native land question p; without using the same means for plac- oi ing Maoris on their own lands as wo ir used for placing Europeans on land. The e chief difficulty was the intricacy of Native land titles, and this hindered not so ", much the transfer of those lands to Europeans as the utilisation by the Maoris of their own lands. The Gov- w eminent had tried to make provision for ?', advances to Maoris for farming, stocking, and fencing on tho security of their nl lands, but the uncertainty of title al- fl ' ways made it difficult to accept the so- c ' curity of tho land. Therefore, unless f 1 both sides in Parliament declared with . a very decided vote that legislation )\ should bo promoted to establish a true., 5, 1 generous, and humanitarian schemo for Maori land settlement, the difficulties v< could not Iμ overcome. A serious blun- ™ dor had been made in tho by all v . ! Governments down to the present time, ?. and it would relieve the situation if they :' would now fall into line and deviso some . proper schome for the utilisation of tho Jj lands left to them by themselves. If that ■ was not tlono the Maoris would come !?' upon the charitable institutions or pri- if vato lands would later on have to be re- , sumed for them. ?, Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchureh North) a . expressed his gratification at tho pro- ' posal to acquire Nativo land compulsor- fS ily. Ho suggested that a portion of the £' proceeds from tho land alienated should "j bo used for the assistance of tho Na- *" tivts in operating the l.ind left to them. ' The Prime Minister: Wait till the Bill is circulated. Mr. W. 11. HERRIES (Tnuranga) assured tho Primo Minister that any pro- h: posal intended to uplift the Nativo race h< would always receive the heart}- support to of tho House. He promised his hearty m support to any scheme to assist tho Nα- hi

tives to work thoir land. Ho wa.s or. I>osc(l to a oompulfiory acquisition c Nntivo land until the Maoris had bee given an opportunity, by Stato assistance to show whether they could make goo fanners. INDUSTRIAL ARBITRATION. Tho Hon. J. A. MILLAR (Minister fo Labour) moved tho committal of tho In dustrial Conciliation and Arbitratioi Amendment Bill, which has already beoj summarised in Tun Doinxiox. Ho re peated !n's statement that he was not pre pared to propose any alteration in tli constitution of the Arbitration Court thi session. Ho promised to do it next so= sion, if ho was returned, and, if he wa no longer a member of the House, h had no doubt somebody else would. The discussion was carried on b; Messrs. Wilford, Field, M'Laren, Luke I'oole, and Arnold. They evinced gener ally a desire to maintain (ho arbitratioi system, with sundry minor amendments The motion was carried on the voices DENTISTS' REGISTRATION. The second reading of tho Dentist Amendment Bill, to give tho right o examination and registration tx> a couph of individuals who arc placed under ai exceptional disability by the existinf lair, was moved by the Hon. D. Buddo NATIVE LANDS. THE WEST COAST RESERVES. The Native Land Claims Adjustmeh Bill was again before the House, laj' evening. Mr. B. DIVE (Egniont) proposed a nen clause in Committee- to enable the hbldei of any lease mentioned in Section 8 o: the West Coast Settlement Reserves Act 1692, to take advantage of that sectioi at any iimo before the expiry of tht lease. The Hon. A. A. NGATA said this would ap ply to 18,000 acres of land. It was taker out of the hands of the Maoris on ac count of their hostility during tho war. The leases were about to expire, and thf lessees had the right to compensation foi improvements up to £b per acre. Whal tho lessees asked" for through this amendment was a 21 years' lease with a perpetual right of renewal—virtually o Glasgow lease. A new generation of Maori; had arisen since the original arrangement, and many of the Maoris were now engaged in dairying.' An inquiry should bo held as to how much of the land could be occupied by the Maoris, and the balance might bo treated as suggested bv Mr. Dive. Mr. H. J. 11. OKJ3Y (Tarannki) supported Mr. Dive's proposal, wliich, he said, had been previously emlo ,, ied in a Bill which had been approved by tho Native Affairs Committee and 'he Lands Committeo. The 130 settlers affected had cleared and improved the land, and raised families, and it would be a hardship to them and an injury to the district if the land was handed back to the Maoris, who had already ample land for their own use near Parihaka. The settlers were willing to pay all arrears of rent, and they did not want to do tho Natives out of a shilling. Sir James CARROLL said he had offered a Commission to investigate the matter, but the settlers bud refused it. He now repeated tho jffer. Mr. Okey: They never refused it. Sir James Carroll suid the lessees should not now claim tho rights which they negected to take advantage of when offered under the Act of ISO 2, 1 ut he would !>e prepared to give ample compensation for improvements, and not insist on the ,C 5 per- acre limit, though the liss;es had deliberately agreed to that. Ue thought tho interests of the 2000 odd owners should be considered mere than those of tlie 130 odd lessees. Sir J. Carroll also said, in reply to Mr. Newman, that the present position was that at tho expiry of the leases they would 1)0 put up to public auction. After further discussion, tho amendment was rejected by 15 votes to 18. THAT RETROACTIVE CLAUSE. A NEW VERSION. Tho Hon. A. T. NGATA produced a revised version of his clause to prevent aggregation of Native leaseholds. There was no change in Sub-Clause 1, wliich provided that' the terms "lossoe" and "sub-lessee" in Part XII of the Native Land Act, 1909, "include and at all times heretofore have- included a lesseo by assignment and a sub-lessee by assignment." Sub-clause 2 in its new form was as follows:—"Nothing in Part XII of tho Native Land Act, 1909, shall prevent or bo deemed to have prevented tho assignment or subletting of a leasehold estate in Native land (whatever the area thereof, and whether created before or after tho commencement of that Act) to any person who docs not already, at the timo when he so acquires an interest in that land, hold any other land (whether Native, European, or Crown land) exceeding five thousand acres (calculated in accordance with that part of the said Act) as tho beneficial owner, lessee, or sublessee thereof, whether at law or in equity, and whether solely or jointly or in common with any other person." This differed from the original proposal chiefly by the substitution of "5000 acres" in place of "100 acres." Sub-clause 3 of tho first version (forbidding the registration of instruments for the acquisition of interests in Native freehold land in tho absence .of a statutory deelaraton of complianco with tho limitation provisions of the Act of 1909) did not appear in the new form j of the clause. Mr. NGATA said that although tho clause in this form was still retioactivo ho thought 'it would be found less objectionable than before. Mr. Hemes in Protest. Mr. HERRIES said that this was a retrospective and retroactive clause of such a kind that it ought to be thrown out by any self-respecting Parliament. Tho Appeal Court, tho Supreme Court, and every Judge in the land except the Chief Justice had decided against the principle involved in the clause. The Government was endeavouring to pass legislation which would upset tho judgment of the Courts instead of pursuing a legitimate courso of appealing to the Privy Council. The question was whether a clause in the Nat'ivo Land Act of 1909 covered the assignment of a leaso that had been lawfully acquired previous to the passing of the Act of 1909. Tho Supreme Court and the Appellate Court said that it did not, that assigning a lease was not acquiring a lease. To take iway i'ho rights that the lessees affected had enjoyed for years and years—some }f the leases dated back for 20 sr thirty years—was distinctly a retrospective and retroactive action jf a character that' tho House should not sanction and never nad sanctioned in his experience. If laws of this icind were to be passed they might go jack oven on the freehold. Penal clauses ivere provided which, if this clause were passed, would practically make criminals if people who had in "the past entered into arrangements which were then perfectly legal and proper. 'A Gross Injustice." Mr. Justice Edwards had characterised vha.t the member for Eastern Maori was mdeavouring to do as striking u heavy )low at tho security of property in land ind at rights honestly and legally acquired. It was not right, in order to :arry out a public policy, fo commit a ;ross injustice on people who had en:ered into perfectly lawful transactions, vhicli in some cases, as for instance in lankruptcics, had been ordered by tho Courts. Aggregation had not been prorented in the past and it was unfair to low penalise peoplo who had taken adrantage of the law in their day. There ,vorc other ways of preventing aggrega;ion than by striking a blow at tho whole ;cnure of land in this Dominion. He vas quite sure that when tho effect of .his clauso became genetally known tho ion. gentleman would receive telegrams rom all parts of the country urging that t should be repealed. No provision at ill had been made for mortgages. Mr. Jerries urged that the clauso should bo vithdrawn. Aggregation had not gone ;o far as lion, members seemed to think. Pho Government might very well be conont to let the present law stand. The irovisions against aggregation would then ipply to all future leaseholders. 'A Pressing Danger." Tho PRIME MINISTER said it never lad been intended under tho law- that a lolder of Native lauds should be allowed :o go on aggregating by means of assignnents. Such a stato ot affairs would not lavo been tolerated for an hour had it

- Ixwn known lo exist. If (.ho proposal of f the lion, mcmbor for Tauranga wore given i effect to it would mean that ono holder , might before next session aggregate, as [ much as half a million acres of Native least-hold land. Unless the legislation suggested were carried, incpaj'»ble harm would bo done before next session. If Iho clauso were passed and injustice ■ were done lo any individual, that could . bo remedied next session. Tho Judges had i decided upon a point which had hitherto i been in doubt. Tho decision of the Su- . promo Court had created this position, . that the holders of n lease for fifty years , might aggregate an additional urea to any i extent they pleased. A money syndiealo could arise to-morrow, if Parliament did ; not act, and hold theso areas for fifty J years on the current period ofthe lease. European loa.-ehol.ls under similar condi- . lions would come under the graduated tax. The .Solicitor-General had stated 1 that immediate legislation was necessary, ' and further that tho first sub-clause of the new clause simply declared the law to be what it was supposed lo l>o before the decision of the Appeal Court. As it now stood tho clause enabled any holder of a Native lease to transfer his lease, but he could do it only to a man holding not ! moro than 5000 acres of third-class land, 2000 acres of second-class land, or GGt acres of first-class land. The legislation would effect what the Legislature had intended to effect in 1909. It had certainly not been contemplated that onto roan should be enabled to have assigned to him the whole 31 million acres of Native leasehold lands. "The object of the clause was to prevent any assignments until Parliament had had tiiie to deal with tho matter next session. The Native Minister had not known until recently that some registrars had been recognising these assignments whenever they wero brought before them. The matter camo to light only when a case was "stuck up" by the registrar at Gisl»rne. This was too important and serious a matter to bo allowed to stand over until next session. The Court having decided that the assignment of leases was legal, any man must recognise that the removal of the doubt would inspire speculative transactions between now and next session, such as had never been heard of before. It was tho duty of Parliament to prevent such an aggregation of Native foayehold land as would most injuriously affect the progress of settlement in tho North Island. Further Protests. Mr. MASSEY said he would have been glad if the hon. gentleman had adhered to his avowed disinclination to pass retrospective legislation. He (Mr. Massey) had always supported tho principle of limitation, but this clause was a very improper attempt to get round the decision of the Court of Appeal. The law that prevented aggregation in Europeanowned land could bo applied to J\ativo leaseholds. He did not think aggregation of these leases was going on. Nothing causrd «o much uneasiness in tho minds of Europeans as any interference with titles. Mr. T. M. WILFORD (Hiitt) said that transactions already completed within the law should not be interfered with, hut ho thought the clause might be applied to leases already in existence, but t yet dealt with by way of assignment. Mr. A. L. HERP/MAN (Wellington North) said that people had acquired lawful rights in accordance with tho Act of 1909, and those rights should be protected. It was a fundamental principle that legislation should bo just, and therefore this clause should bo rejected by tho . House. It would bo interfering with tho securities of any persons or institutions , who might have advanced money on the J leases. Sir J. CARROLL said reasonable amendments could be considered in Committee. The motion to recommit tho Bill in order to add tho clause was carried by 33 io 24. MILITARY PENSIONS BILL. Tho second reading of tho Military i Pensions Bill was moved by Sir J. G. 1 Ward. i Mr. T. M. WILFORD (Hutt) asked the j Premier to consider the suggestions of 1 the Royal New Zealand Veterans' Association "that all veterans of the Maori War in rightful possession of the war medal should bo entitled to 10s. a week in lieu of old age pensions if their incomes wero not more than 255. a week; that, service being the qualification, ago need not lie proved; that the pension should not bo forfeited for a lapso from sobriety; that a pensioner's wife should he entitled (< to an old age pension. J Mr. J. T. HOGAN (Wanganni) congrat- j, ulated tho Premier on the Bill, but hop- ( ed ho would ho able to propose some- \ thing more generous later on. The Bill c would grant tho prayer of tho first peti- e tiou on tho subject, though not of tho a later petiions! i, r. W. F. MASSEY (Leader of tho „ Opposition) said he could not congratu- j; late the Premier on the Bill. It merely c changed tho name of tho pension from „ "old age" to "military." This seemed to \ cast a slur on the old age pension. He suggested that any man who had been *■' awarded a New Zealand war medal, or could prove that ho had been under fire, 1' or served a reasonable term with tho Imperial or colonial forces in New Zealand should have a pension of 10s. a weeic. They had asked for broad and wo should give them a stone if the Bill were pass- a ed in its present form. I More or less dissatisfaction with tho w Bill on the ground that something more j] generous should havo been submitted was Cl expressed by Messrs. Luke, Okey, Wright, C( Fisher, Herrios, M'Laren, Clark, Poland, p liollard, and Glovor. Several wished to c , extend tho pensions to other than Maori t, U ar veterans. T The PRIME MINISTER in his reply, a said ho was just as sympathetic towards j, the veterans as any member' of the ~' House, but was against giving pensions ] f to all and sundry. Many who would not j! accept old age pensions would accept „'. inilitarv pensions as proposed in the Bill. c . He indicated that financial reasons pre- f j vented the Government doing moro. j c The Bill was read a second time. a , it WELLINGTON BILL. ol The amendments made in tho Welling- P 1 iou City Empowering Bill wero agreed to. w ■ ol END OF THE SESSION. c; ti WILL IT BE TO-NIGHT? u . Tho next order of tho day was tha ct Gaming Amendment Bill, hut the Pre- cl miei' propesed to pass it over and tako w tho Mokau debate. Mr. Massey pro- tl tested against beginning so important a w discussion at so late an hour (11.30 p.m.). 0 f Alter some discussion, hi Tho PRIME MINISTER propesed to j s go on with Bills in Committee, and to K sit this morning and take the Mokau a \ debate, and then the Supplementary Es- n , timatcs. He suggested that the session tj could then bo wound up to-night-(hear, , n hear)—but if members did not want to p , do that, he was quite prepared to pro- t j, vide them with further work for Monday. er co BILLS IN COMMITTEE. cii ell ARBITRATION AMENDMENT BILL. ll Tho House, at 11.10 p.m., went into Committee on several Bills. A number of amendments to the Industrial Conciliation and Arbitration Amendment Bill wero approved, on the motion of tho Hon. J. A. Millar. •. Clause 3 was omitted, and a new clause was proposed providing that on its being proved to tho Court that an industrial agreement exists which is binding on ir employers and a majority of workers in ti a district, the Court may declare the tl same to bo an award, unless, in its opin- d< ion, it is against tho public good or in a< excess of the jurisdiction of the Court. er Sir Arthur GUINNESS contended that A the Court should not be permitted to in- ai terfere between employers and workers sa when they had to como to an agreement, ol He moved to striko out tho reference to a "tho public good." in The MINISTER replied thai there was e nothing to prevent employers and workers a j working under an agreement without going to the Court at all. The reservation to which exception had been taken was intended to cover tho caso of work- | 1( ers and employers combining to nrbit- „. rarilv raise the price of the commodity -\\ which they were engaged in producing. . f At midnight there wero 30 members in jj the House. Mr. LUKE said the proposal of the ~ member for Grev was sweetly reasonable. . Sir Arthur GUINNESS declared that f it was owing to the fact that the Court 'j E had often refused, on trivial grounds, to '" turn these agreements into awards that [lie Court had fallen into disfavour. dr The MINISTER stated that, the repre- ad sentatives of tho workers had asked for at the clauso as it stood. tii Mr. LUKE said there was abroad a bn

spirit, in employers and workers, of dceiro for co-operation. Tho proposal of tho member for Grey tended to make for co-o]>eration. Mj. FISHER remarked tluit they did not desiro to give powers to tho Court which in its indiscretion—and it had been guilty of a good deal of indiscretion—it might uso to tho injury of conciliation. Mr. MILLAR, contended that the !>auso mado it mandatory upon tho Court to turn an agreement into an award on proper conditions. At 0.30 a.m. 21 members wore sitting up in their placc.'j. Fivo or rax woro lying down. Mr. M'LAREN said tliatitwas certainly necessary lo protect the rights of others than tho conl meting parties. Sir Arthur GUINNESS'S amendment was negatived on a division by 20 votes to 7. A new clauso was substituted for Clause 1 providing that associations of employers or workers may make application to the Court in tho first instance for an award | to apply to more than ono industrial district. Tho Bill was reported as amended. DENTISTS BILL. The Dentists Amendment Bill was put through Committee without amendment. NATIVE LEASEHOLDS. In Committee on the Native. "Wash-ing-up" Bill, Mr. Hordmau moved an amendment to Mt. Ngata's new Native leasehold clause to make it non-retro-active. (Left sitting.)