THE DEBATE TAKES A SENSATIONAL TURN.

Press, Volume LXVI, Issue 13904, 1 December 1910, Page 7

THE DEBATE TAKES A SENSATIONAL TURN.

PRIME MINISTER. ON HIS DEFENCE. RAKING TJP~THE PAST. When the debate was resumed at 2.30 this afternoon, it at once took a sensational turn. The Prime.Minister began with a reference to his speech of 1896, which had been mentioned by Mr Massey, and in which he had alluded to criticisms of deceased politicians. It followed upon tho time when he resigned his scat in the Ministry, and in the House, and when the - Opposition of that day, he said, had employed a lawyer to dog his steps and find out ail about matters with which they had nothing to do. The speech referred to ""'as a bitter speech, but when he recalled it now, he marvelled at its moderation. He had, however, never changed his opinion that the method of attacking a dead man was one of the most contemptible things that could be done. Mr Allen and others: Hear, hear. Sir Joseph Ward: I will say something presently to which the member for Bruco will not say "Hear, hear." Ihe party that was then in Opposition mado a bitter, cowardly, secret, malicious attack on |iim through his business, and they provided money and paid a man who did the work for them, for the purpose of trying to ruin a political opponent. . He had more than once said that he regretted that portion of the speech in which he referred to- a man who had passed away, and whom bo had never attacked in his lifetime, nor taken any part in attacks upon him. He .(Sir Joseph Ward) had been subjected during the past 14 years to a great amount of malicious and very, very often secretly inspired abuse. He had never raised this subject before, and he only did so now because it had been referred to by some of the speakers who had preceded him iin the discussion. Mr Fraser: Only one. SIR JOSEPH'S PERSONAL AFFAIRS. Sir Joseph Ward: Well, by one member. He regretted exceedingly that it had become necessary to refer to his personal affairs. Ac the timo in

question ho had been at tho head o£ one of the largest businesses in the country, and it was the easiest thing in the world for people to put that business down, and it was put down. It was the easiest thing in the world to ruin him personally, and he was ruined personally. He took the present opportunity of making some statements on tho matter, because he had never had an opportunity of being heard in his own defence. That privilege which would havo been afforded to tho humblest person in the country—, . to a Chinaman—then had been denied to him. • It was said that tho business had been carried on recklessly, and yet under liquidation, which was accompanied by a wholesale slaughter of tho stock-in-trade, it realised £88,345" —a larger amount by far than any other business that had been liquidated in this country. Out of all the farmers who did business with the Ward Association, not a single ono was mado bankrupt as the result of tho liquidation. Statements of reckless trading had been made in reference to au ad- : vance of £2000 without security to a I contractor for the building of a bridge. The liquidator thought it was a bad transaction, and took proceedings accordingly, but everybody who knew uio contractor knew that he could pay, and ho did so beforo tho process was served on him. Six thousand farmers, small and large, did business with the Ward Association, and not one of them Juied his schedule or lost a shilling over it, a thing that -was unprecedented in connection with any large business that was brought down instanter. One of the assets that was officially put on record as valueless was bought back by himself, -with the assistance of two or three friends, and in a short time ho had netted £9200 on it, and ho iised tho proceeds to pay some of the and New Zealand creditors of the association. Within six months another* asset fetched £45,000 in cash, though it had previously been regarded as almost valueless. It now paid handsomely, but neither he nor any member of his family had since had any interest in it. What was known as his own personal estate, which was purchased ■ by him with the assistance of a few friends, after it had been declared to be next door to valueless, was netting £4,000 three weeks after it came into his possession, and was now netting £6000. Side by side with the liquidation process his ordinary business was carried on and was making more. in profits than would have paid all the liabilities, losses, and debits of the Ward Association at that time. One of the first things he did in connection with that business was to see that tho whole of the creditors were paid 20s in tho £ (applause), and quickly too. It was done without difficulty, and ho returned sums of money which had been, voluntarily placed at his disposal by friends in different parts of tSecolony; he accented no money from anybody. (Hear, hear.) THE COLONIAL BANK. Some people had industriously circulated statements that he was responsible for certain things connected with; tho Colonial bank. Ho was never a party to the sale of that bank to the Bank of New Zealand; ho was never a shareholder in the Colonial Bank, and he never received any concessions from it. On behalf of the Government at that time, h© did his best to see that the National Bank was acquired' by the Bank of New Zealand, and' that the general . manager of tho National Bank should become president of the Bank of Now Zealand. Tho people who made the, allegations about the Colonial Bank and himself wero worse than slanderers. (Hear, hear.) He possessed a record of all the losses and writings of the Colonial Rank, as also of the Bank ofNNetw t Zealand, and he had obtained them fairly and legitimately. Tho losses of the Colonial Bank, outside of anything concerning himself ran to half a million sterling, and those of the Bank of New Zealand! to two million. How did his slanderers stand in connection with those losses? He knew every one of themWhere were thoso slanderers nowP, Mr Laurenson: In the Opposition ranks. Mr Massey (rising)-: The Speaker: I must ask Mr Laurenson to withdraw that remark; it is improper to interject. The words ha , used were improper. .-.. Sir Joseph Ward went on to refer to what lie described as a ' mysterious pamphlet circulated by a Russian or Roumanian Nihilist, snd stated that the writer of part of this production was an Oppositionist whom ho coiildname, hut he was net now in Parlia-' mont. Anybody who went down to Southland and spoke to the fanners with whom he had had business relations, or to the directors.or secretary of tho old Southland Froaen Meat Company, would not find • one who would say that ho (Sir Joseph) had ever in all his life attempted to do a dishonourable thing. (Applause.) The. :. J . only people who imputed evil to him -, wpre hirelings paid for the purpose, who never had anything to do with himl directly'or indirectly. IN CONNECTIPN WITH OATS. The suggestion had ,been more than - , once mado that he was connected with...-.-what they called a swindle in connection with oats sold by the Ward Association. He had-''never been directly. -. ■ or indirectly connected with any swin- /--•■ die, either in that matter or any other, ;., matter. Tho cost of the liquidation ■;■>. of the Ward Association -was about j£lß,ooo, though a leading firm offered ', to do it for £1000. He finally pur- "y> chased the remaining debts of tho As- f, sociation for the so!© pttr_»so of get; .; ting the liquidators' books into Ins own hands. He had had them now for a . considerable time. He found _ that \- within three months of the_ UqTiidaior taking charge there came in consider- ' ably more than the alleged shortage of sacks of grain. . He had held for some • timo a letter from the manager or the bank at that time, informing him that he ought to have stated before that the, .. warrants then held by the- bank were for grain in store and to arrive. That was a very common procedure. Tho manager who was then in charge was one of the most honourable men in the country, and would not do any dishonourable thing. After the realisation of tho assets his business was car- . ried on very profitably, and he had never done any business with the Government or any Government Department. RESCUING THE BANK OF NEW. ZEALAND. Sir Joseph also referred to having;' taken an active part with the lato Mr Seddon in the legislation which provented the Bank of New Zealand going down. Members of tho Opposition at , that timo asked for a further examination of tbe business of the bank, and J if that had been granted, the country j could not havo come to tho rescue of ' the Bank and of the depositors in time, ■ and the Bank would not havo paid a shilling on its notes. The statement ,' that he was responsible for tho sale of; , the Colonial Bank to the Bank of New Zealand was a most cowardly one. Out of all tho people who wero carrying on business with the Colonial Bank, not ; one was given less than ten years to make the necessary adjustments excepting himself, and the business he was connected with. They wero given only three months, which thoso responsible for must have known was an impossible! period to do it in. He had never in his life gone cap in hand to anybody in times of difficulty, nor asked anyone to lift a finger to help him. Not a man in Parliament could say that ha (Sir Joseph Ward) had gone to him ~ and asked for the least assistance in any personal matter.' In connection with the Bank's affairs to which ho had referred, he was kept in Welling- .. ton at a Banking Committee for the .« best part of three months, but nothing was proved against bim, an<l he was unable to see the people who were con-

nccted with his large business and ab the end of the three month* the business went into liquidation. "A HIGHER HAND." Ho had a paper showing tho fate which had overtaken fourteen of the people who wore most active against ],im at that time He would not make it public, but looking at what had happened to those people, he believed that I Higher Hand had been looking after those- who, while professing to act-the part of impartial men, had been cloii.g a base injustice. He had never trieto injure any of them, but he believed tha " Higher Hand had taken care that at least a little of the troubles of .world should afflict them. Holipv.,l that his family and himself were better off than any one of them. Mt ha 1 been connected with many leading men in different parte of the v»orld, Z\ not one had withdrawn bus.ne.s from him. That was one ot the strongest answers that could be given to lus •dam Wens and maligners. THAT PAMPHLET AGAIN. Referring again to the '^^Jf lou » pamphlet," Sir Joseph said that the an who had been circulating it, though professing to be as poor as a church mouse and unable to pay a io fine that was inflicted on him had travelled from end to end of the coiintrv delivering the pamphlet free from door to door. It had an addendum suggesting that the people should turn. him (Sir Joseph', out at tho next ♦•lection. ..-,.• t -\f,. jn reply to an interjection by -Mr Massey the Prime Minister said: 1 am not suggesting anything against you. Mr Massey: To whom are you roterring? To Mr Black? Sir Joseph Ward: Yes. to Mr Black himself. Ho would like to ask 'Mr -\ilen if by any chance some person without means printed a letter about "momhe.re of his family—supposing it happened to be his mother, dead and gone; his wife, alive; or father, dead and gone—and by the merest chance it came into his (Sir Joseph's) hands, and he carried it about, produced it in trains, and gave it to _>eoplo to read, what would Mr Allen think of him.'' He would look upon him as a blackguard and a skunk. And he wo>,_'d deservo it. He would ask Mr Hemes what he would think of him if his (Mr Herries's) mother were written about, and ho (Sir Joseph) handed copies of it to anyone else. Mr Herries would say he was a skunk and a cur, and the remark would ho well deserved. Ho would ask Mr Massey if his (the Premier's) organiser carried a pamphlet from which the pamphlet in question had been compiled through the country, prior to an election, what would lie (Mr think of him allowing it to be done? He would use the strongest terms ho could find iv the language Mr Massey knows his organiser (Mr Martin) carried it round. Mr Massev: I will tell you all about it. The Premier went on to say that he recognised that he was put down fourteen years ago; it was also true that he had done a lot to help others. He told the House at the time that they had not heard the last of him. Since then ho had successfully contested five Parliamentary elections. Then, again, he had iron every other election which he had contested. It was perfectly true that he had started life as a boy earning 10s a week, and he was not ashamed of it. (Hear, hear.) It was also true that as the result of haTd work he had attained the highest position in the country. He regretted the personal way he had been attacked during his term of office. These attacks were meant to also bring about the- destruction of the party of which he was the head. It occurred to Mr Seddon in his day, and it had occurred to him .Sir Joseph) In his day. He had taken the trouble- to look at the history of men in other countries who had occupied very much higher positions than the man who, for the time being, ■ happened, to be Prime Minister of this Dominion, and though they had strong fights, he had never found an attempt being made in a British Parliament and amongst British people, to get at a man who, by work and the goodwill of tho people, had gained such a position, as had been ■ mado in this country. The only instances he could find wero in ono or * two Continental countries, and. these were not to be taken as a precedent. He had put a note on his desk with the intention of alluding to a cor tain matter, but on reconsideration he would not do so. He believed that on such ah occasion tie ought'not to cay anything that might indirectly hurt anybody who was not immediately responsible for any matter which he was discussing, an<J as the important matter he was going to allude to would indirectly Kurt other people, he would forego ,it, and would watch events. ! He was probably better informed of what was «oing on in the different portions of thia country than any other man in it. He knew who prepared the greater portion of the pamphlet. Mr'Massey: You ought to name them. Sir Joseph Ward said he knew the name of the woman who prepared a portion of the second pamphlet and he wanted to say that he held in his possession a letter written from the same quarter that a number had come from during the last eight months in tho north of New Zealand, telling him what was to be done to him. Among other things a large number of these pamphlets were to be sent to London to be distributed thero. He held letters from numbers of leading men of London, saying that these packets were posted wholesale. Tho writers were not only disgusted with it, but , offered to do anything in their power to show their hatred of an un-British action. Ho also held letters from people in Australia, which spoke of wholesale parcels having been distributed there, with the object of discrediting him (Sir Joseph), and in discrediting him to besmirch the fair name and fame of the men and women who were tho possessors of New Zea- . land." He took tliat opportunity of giving tho suggestion that he was; anserine after the High Cominissionershio or any other position outside of New Zealand an unqualified denial. Had he been disposed to do so, one thing would have determined him to go over New Zealand and meet the* ■ .people in the highways and byways, and cities and towns prior to the next election, where the filthy pamphlet had been circulated with the idea of injuring him. (Loud "hear, hears.") There had been introduced the name of his dead mother, and the name of his wife. • He knew nothing more despicable, and if he found one of his opponents were being attacked in such a manner, he would have done anything he could to stop it. As the Prime Minister's time was up, the Hon. T. Y. Duncan aslSed that it should be extended for fifteen minutes, and the House agreed. Proceeding, the Prime Minister said when the first copy of the pamphlet came to him in the samo handwriting that gay© him advice from time to time, he handed it to his lawyers for advice. It was an extraordinary thing to-day. that no man in his position coukl legally do anything to protect himself under circumstance of the kind. When the Prime Minister resumed his seat a number of members of his party, led by the Hon. T. Y. I>uncan, rose and gave him three cheers. THE OPPOSITION AND THE PAMPHLET. DIGirrJTED KEPuBIATION BY MR MASSEY. Mr Massey said as the Opposition organiser's name had been mentioned, he desired to make a personal explanation. While Mr Martin, the organiser, . was travelling in the train someone handed him a book to read. He had seen it then for the first time, and went on reading it. He got into con- i

versation with some people in tiie train, and the book was discussed. Ho (Mr Massey) had heard of the incident, and he knew of the book; it was a book written by a man called Braund. He (Mr Massey) at once instructed Mr Martin not to carry the book with him, and that ho was not to use it in any way whatever, and he knew that Mr Martin bad carried out his instructions. In regard to the pamphlet that had been referred to. Sir jrseph Ward had not referred to him (Mr Massey) directly. but only indirectly and by imputation. "If," continued Mr Massey, "he can prove that I have had anything to do with its production prior to its being put on sale in the streets of the cities, I am willing to hand in my resignation and retire from politics for all time." (Hear, hear.) "Now, there i* a straightforward offer, and 1 am wilHng to stand by it. If ho can provo tlmt I knew anything of it, my i-osignation goes in at once." The Hon. Mr Duncan: I am glad to hear it. Mr Masse.. : Very well, I make that offer here, and I'll "make it to the people of this country, and 1 know there are some people in this country who would be very glad indeed to see mc go out of politics. The Hon. T. V. Duncan: Oh. no, not so many. Mr Massey : Well, I am glad to hear the honourable gentleman say so. I know there aro many people opposed to mc, like the honourable gentleman, who are personal friends of mine. Now, sir, I leave that, and the offer stands. 'Hie right honourable gentleman said a member of the Opposition—not a member in the House at the present time—had written the greater part of the pamphlet.. 1 don't know who the honourable gentleman is referring to. Sir Joseph Ward: I am not referring to a member of the present House. A CHALLENGE. Mr Massey: 1 don't think the statement made by the right honourable gentleman should rest there. If it is anyone •joiinected with the Opposition, then he should give the House the name, and 1 challenge him to do so. These innuendoes are not fair; thoy are not fair to us. Mr Fisher: He is doing the same thing as he objected to in Mr Hine. Mr Massey: I know tho hon. gentleman is speaking under some strain, and I can sympathise with the hon. gentleman in connection with that attack; 1 may tell him that my sympathies go out to him. (Hear, hear). So far as Black is concerned, 1 do not know him. I believe he i» a man who owns a little newspaper in Auckland—a Russian or a Roumanian. I have been informed by a man on this side of the House who knows about such matters, that the pamphlet could be produced at a cost of threo farthings a copy, and if it is being sold at 6d, then there should be a particularly good profit on it. I have reason to believe that it was got up for profit, and I am strengthened in that view by the fact that another pamphlet was issued from the same source at' 6d. It is a pamphlet giving the secret history of the Auckland Tramway Company, and it was issued for commercial purposes. This one has, I believe, been issued with exactly the same object, and no one directly connected with the Opposition in any way had the very slightest hand in the issuing of that pamphlet. (Government "Hear, hears"). MR. ALLEN'S EXPLANATION. Mr James Allen, by way of personal explanation, said it was quite true that he had seen the pamphlet. He did not bily it; it was given to him; but he had never read it, and he did not know that it contained a reference to the right hon. gentleman's family. He did Bhow it to one of his own supporters in the train, and that was all he had ever done. * ANOTHER OPPOSITION DENIAL. Mr Herdman said he regretted very much that recent circumstances had made it necessary for ' the right honourable gentleman to deliver the speech he had made that afternoon. It was necessary that some statement should be made regarding this scurrilous pamphlet, that had been circulated from end to end of the colony. The statement made by the hon. member for Christchurch North was . one that was vory serious so far as the Opposition Party was concerned. Already they had had the assurance of the Leader of the Opposition that they knew nothing of its issue. He had been told that one member of the Crown had made a statement in an institution to which he (Mr Herdman) belonged that the Opposition Party was directly or indirectly responsible for tbe Eamphlet, and thai he could prove it. [c gone to that gentleman and had discovered that the statement was hardly correct. He had asked Mr Massey if he knew of any member of the Opposition Party who was in any way associated with that document, either in its compilation or production. He was assured that no member of the Opposition Party bed anything whatever to do with it. and, more than that, they considered this method of fighting was one of the most discreditable, disgraceful, and cowardly methods that a man could possibly indulge in. (Government "Hear, hears.") They on that side of the House always endeavoured to act as gentlemen, and they endeavoured to be fair to their opponents. It was true they hit hard, and that they gave some haTd knocks. Sir Joseph Ward: "Hear, hear,'' and no ono objected to it. Mr Herdman: But no man on this sido of the House would hit below the belt. Mr Hogan: Let each man speak for himself. Mr Fraser: Don't talk nonsense. A CHALLENGE TO MR HOGAN. Mr Massey (rising in his place): I challenge Mr Hogan to give any Opposition name connected with it. (Silence in Mr Hogan's quarter.) Mr Massey: And ho cannot do it! Mr Herdman: I cannot understand the hon. gentleman making the interjection at all. If he has suspicions of anyone on this side, let him stand up and say so. Mr Nosworthy: Let him be man enough to say so. Mr Herdman-. Yes, let mm be man enough to say so. I want the hon. gentleman to understand that there is no man on this side of the House who does not recognise that such tactics ' should not be indulged in, and I wish I tho public outside of this Institution to j understand that we scorn the man who adopted this method of fighting, and repel any suggestion of being associated or connected with it. I regard the man who has attacked the hon. gentleman iv thia way as a blackguard, and there 1 shall leave tbe matter. BACK TO THE HINE CHARGES. This, however, continued Mr Herdman, was not the matter under discussion, and he proceeded to refer to tho Hine charges. Some hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House apparently regarded them as frivolous, but apparently the Government did not regard them, in that light, seeing that they had come to the conclusion that sufficient facts had been brought before them to warrant legislation to prevent their recurrence. Mr Hine, therefore, deserved great credit for facing the Committee and proving his charges -up to the hilt. As to Tammanyism there were different definitions of that term. Where a man sold his vote for some personal gain, that to his mind , was Tammanyism. Where he used his vote for some personal gain, that was Tammanyism: and so was a case in which he used his public position for personal gain, taking fees for a petition upon which he himself was to adjudicate. Surely that was Tammanyism. In the case of Mr Kaihau, obj viously that was Tammanyism. Also ! when influence was brought to bear j

on a newspaper, as was done in this case —that was Tammanyism in a sense, and he ventured to declare that when public funds were spent on roads and bridges to influence an electorate, that 'when persons were appointed to public positions in the service of the country as a reward for political services rendered, as had been admitted in this country—that was Tammanyism. Mr Herdman, proceeding, said that if public- money were diverted for the purpose of Influencing votes, then Tammanyism did exist in this country. He knew that we had not got it in New Zealand in the exaggerated form one found it in other countries. As regards Mr Tavlor, he posed as a pattern or propriety—a man who would fight for what was right, for a pure public lite. Why then, had lie brushed the charges aside? Did he believe that the people affected were justifled in their actions? A member: He went the length ot saying that Mr Kaihau should resign. , , Mr Herdman said he would ask wiry he had brushed aside the charges against Mr Svmes and Mr Major. Mr Taylor: I said Mr Symes had done very wrong. Mr V.'Reed commenced by reading portions of the speeches made by Mr Hine before the enquiry was set up. While he was doing so he broke off and complained that Mr Massey had just referred to him as ono of the judges of the Hino Committee. Mr Massey said the remark was made in orivate conversation with Mr Buchanan, and he did not think any decent man would take any notice of Mr Speaker ordered these words to be withdrawn. At the conclusion of his speech, Mr Reed said he did not know who wrote the pamphlet about Sir Joseph Ward, but he was certain it was being issued for political purposes, else why were they being sold for eighteen pence a dozen in some parts of the Dominion. Three thousand copies had been circulated free in Auckland and Wellington. The purpose was to make political capital for next election. A poster nnd been forwarded to him from his district which contained these, amongst other headlines: "Sensational Exposure of Sir Joseph Ward —His Life History —How He Became Premier of New Zealand —Read the Book and Learn How It Is that Purity of Administration is Impossible While a Man With Such a Career is at the Head of the State," etc. The poster i further alleged that indirect attempts had been made to interfere* with the sale of the book, and threats made to deport the author. Tho pamphlet bore the imprint of an Auckland publishing agency. Mr Buchanan protested with all his strength against the insinuation made that the Opposition was at the hot ton' of this wretched, miserable pamphlet. No one had been more pained than he since this publication came under his notice. Only the other day in his district, when looking for a show catalogue, a man rushed up to him and waited to push the pamphlet into his hand. Had it not been for making a scene, he would have "thrust the pamphlet down the man's throat. Mr Witty: That is what should be done. Continuing, Mr Buchanan said Mr Taylor would always be alone. Ho was a' political Ishmaelite. He asked Mr Speaker if it would be in order to term Mr Taylor a "political scorpion." (Laughter.) He did not want to be personal, but that was Mr Taylor's nature, and it would always be so. When the Hine charges were brought down the statement that they might be true was scorned. The Government, did not decide to meet the charges until a cable was received from the Old Country showing the notice tfiat had been taken of them. Sir Joseph Ward: That is not correct. Mr Buchanan: I am bound to accept your statement. Upon a division, Mr Allen's amendment was rejected by 46 votes to 20, the voting being as follows: — ' For the amendment (20) —Messrs Anderson, Bolland, Buchanan, Fisher, Fraser, Guthrie, Hardy, Herdman, Herries, Hine, Lang, Malcolm, Mander, Massey, Newman, Nosworthy, Okey, Phillips, Scott, and Wright. Against the amendment (46) —Messrs Arnold, Brown. Buddo, Buxton, Carroll, Clark, Colvin. Craigio, Davey, T. Duncan, Ell, Field, Forbes, Glover, Graham, Gxeenslade, Hall, Hanan, Hogan, Jennings, Laurenson, Lawry, Mac Donald, R. McKenzie, T. Mackenzie, McLaren, Millar, - Myers, Ngata, Parata, Poland, Poole, Rangihiroa, Reed, Ross, Russell, Seddon, Sidey, Smith, Stallworthy, E. H. Taylor. .1. C. Thomson, Wilford, Witty, Sir William Steward, and Sir Joseph Ward. PROCEEDINGS AT THE EVENING .SITTING. (-•MBSS ABBOCUTIOW TBUBOBAM.) At the evening sitting, the debate was resumed by .. Mr Herries, who gave an unqualified denial to the statement that he ■had circulated a pamphlet on Sir Joseph Ward's life. He hoped he stood high enough in the estimation ot the House to be credited with being above that kind of thing. However, tho incident showed that there were people who dogged the footsteps ot members of the House, and were willing to carry tales. He hoped the Prime Minister would discourage these practices. He did not believe m digging up the faults of his fellow-mem-bers, but he considered it necessary to make some remarks in regard to the Te Akau block purchase. He gave a detailed history of the case from the beginning. He had always looked upon the T© Akau transaction as a peculiar one. ' SPEECH BY MR KAIHAU. Mr Henare Kaihau said he was not a party man. He represented a district consisting of some 600,000 square miles. During the years ho had been in the House he had never done anything that any member of the House could say was'wrong. Concerning Mr Hine's charges, he" had heard that persons had been paid to say he had received money for work done by him as a member. " He had had nothing to do with the Horomona Watarauihia petition until it was thrown out by the House. There was something behind these charges which did not appear on the surface. Kahu Huatare paid him £10 for work done outside of Parliament only. He maintained that the Allegations Committee had been unable to find him guilt}' on any of the charges brought against him. If other members of the House could attend to their own duties outside, why should he not attend to his in a similar manner? He did not know now what he was guilty of. He deplored the fact that the names of tho Prime Minister and the Government had been connected with tho pharges. The Te Akau matter was simply between Maoris and Maoris. He knew the charges were not really levelled against him. The House ought to uphold the name of the Prime 'Minister of this or any other country. Certain members of the Committee which had investigated the charges against him had made capital out of the .statement that a chief had placed a roll of notes into a member's pocket. No one except the two concerned saw what occurred. The whole incident looked funny to him. Why was that deed done, and did the member return the hundred pounds? Who knew Kaihau was the recipient? OTHER SPEAKERS. Te Rangiliiroa said the charge affected the Maori race, as it was levelled against one of their four representatives. A Maori could not be expected to understand pakeha ways as the pakeha did. The Maori system of ethics and tiie European system were totally different. Mr Kaihau had broken no law in the State book, and

there was no law to condemn him. Alr Massey had received a presentation from his constituents of a thousand pounds. To the Maori mind this was quite the same thing as had happened in Kaihau's case. * _. Mr Hine said with 'reference to Mr T E. Taylor's remarks that he (Mr Hine) had mixed more with cattle than with-men. if all men were like Mr Taylor, he would sooner mix with cattle. No one in the House or the whole country had anything to do with the charges he had laid. With reference to the dead man, the thought • f Mr Seddon had never entered his mind. H'Ls charges were levelled at the Administration, and he believed they were true. Mr Myers said that Mr Hine had signally failed to prove his charges against the Government. There was nothing in tho evidence to show th-it the Government was implicated in the ease;. The committee could hove cotno to no other conclusion than it did. The debate was continued by Messrs McLaren, Malcolm, Fisher and Laurenson . THE CHAIRMAN'S REPLY. After Mr Wright had spoken, Mr J. A. Hanan (chairman of the Hine Allegations Committee) rose to reply. He said the country, from one end to the other, was sick of the Hine business. He attacked the member, for Bruce as being unscrupulous in his tactics. Mr Allen liad attacked him (Mr Hanan) in his capacity as chairman of the Committee. The findings of the Committee were carried by 46 votes to 20, which was a sufficient answer to Mr Allen, who had accused the chairman of the Committee of bias. It was evident to all the members of the Committee that he (Mr Hanan) had done his duty in a most difficult and trying position. The members of the Committee, through Mr Fraser, had expressed their satisfaction at the manner in which he had carried out his duties. Ho defended the attitude taken up by Mr Symes in regard to the '"Stratford Post," which" was a negative one. The letter from Mr Symes to Mr McCluggage was admitted to be confidential by Hemingway. The resolution of tho Committee was fully justified on the evidence. He had been charged with dragging in'the name of Mr Seddon. He did not deny that he had attempted to fix definitely tiie person upon whom the charge should he laid. If the charge was proved somebody had to be condemned. Why was the charge against Mr Seddon in regard to tho Flaxbourne case not' brought up in his lifetime? This charge had failed, as had also the Te Akau charge. The report of the Committee was then adopted. MR. KAIHAU REPRIMANDED. Sir Joseph Ward moved a resolution to the effect that Mr Kaihau had been guilty of impropriety in accepting payment for services connected with Parliament. The motion was carried. Mr Kaihau was then summoned before the House to receive a reprimand. The House then rose. STATEMENT BY MR HINE. MR T. E. TAYLOR'S ADVICE. (SPECIAL TO "THE PRESS.") WELLINGTON, November 30. Mr Hine, speaking after the supper adjournment, stated that mombers on the Government 6i'de had the pamphlet in their homes, and he had seen a former colleague of the Prime Minister go up and buy one at the street corner. He caused some surpriso by stating that as to the charges he had laid, Mr T. E. Taylor was the man who had advised him to go on with the charges. Ho had shown him a letter that had been put in evidence. Mr Taylor said to him "Hinc. with that in your possession, t'Oti are not only justified, but you will do a base thing if you do not reveal it"*" Mr Hino further explained that he had not consulted a single member of the Opposition, and nono of them had any hand in framing lus charges. He had done the whole thing off his own bat. By way of personal explanation, Mr Taylor said Mr Hine had shown him a photograph of the letter written by Mr Symes, and he (Mr Taylor) said, ''Hine, if you have the original of that letter, you "certainly ought to give the details to the House, and fight it out.' On the night of that day he made a speech arguing that if Mr Hino know of anything wrong he should place the facts before the House. DEBATE DEVELOPED INTO A WRANGLE. i UNPARLIAMENTARY RETORT BY | A MINISTER. (special to "thk pkess.") WELLINGTON, November 30. Tbe debate gradually developed into a mere wrangle. At 12.30 a.m. the Hon. T. Mackenzie, who was in _ the Prime Minister's seat at the time, termed a statement made by. Mr Massev, "a lie." The incident arose otft of" Mr Massey accidently referring to Mr Mackenzie (who represents Taieri) as the member for Clutha. When he recollected his mistake, Mr Massey said that Clutha would not have Mr Mackenzie. This drew forth the words from the Minister. When compelled to withdraw Mr Mackenzie said he had been returned several times for Clutha, and had never been defeated there. Further, when he now visited Clutha, he was always honoured by' his old constituents.