TROUBLE IN THE LANDS COMMITTEE.

Press, Volume LXV, Issue 13596, 3 December 1909, Page 8

TROUBLE IN THE LANDS COMMITTEE.

FREEHOLD CLAUSES JETTISONED AND RECOVERED.

A LIVELY DEBATE

(special to "the press. ) WELLINGTON, December 2. For some little time there have been rumours that the Land Bill was having rather a stormy passage through the Lands Committee of the House of Representatives. Then it was whispered • ; in confidence that the Land Bill had been shorn of all its freehold clauses by the Prime Minister's own Lands Committee, and the Press men got to know of it, but could not use the information, because it would have been a breach of privilege. To-day, however, tho cat was let out of the bag in the House iteelf, and practically all the aiternccn w_s occupied with the most interesting debate that we have had for many a long day. The Bill was reported to the House by tho chairman of the Lands Committee, the Hon. T. Y. Duncan, with amendments, and he formally moved that the report of the committee be laid on the table of the House. Mr Massey asked the Minister for Lands <Sir Joseph Ward) whether he woujd 6tate when the Bill would come on for its 6econ_ reading. He would also ask the chairman of the Lancis Committee whether he would lay the minutes of the committee's proceedings before the House. Mr Hanan said he hoped that the latter request of the Leatter of the Opposition would be agreed to. It was currently reported, he 6aid, that when the Bill was before the committee it was considered up to a certain stage, and that certain proposals were then struck out. It was also reported that in order that these proposals should be re-instated', it was decided that another meeting of the committee should be held. That meeting, it was stated, had been held to-day, when Mr Guthrie, an Opposition member of the committee (who had been absent yesterday), was present. The result was that the proposals in question were again inserted. Sir Joseph Ward: "Is it not a breach of privilege to disclose what takes place before a committee?" 'Mr Witty: "Mr Hanan is not a member of. the Lands Committee. How did he get his information?" Sir Joseph Ward: "If he were {present as a visiting member, it is not fair for him to disclose what took place." Mr Hanan: "I was not there." Sir Joseph, Ward: "Then how did you get the information?" Mr Hanan said that he was stating what was reported to have taken place. If the request of the Leader of the Opposition, which was a, reasonable one, were acceded to, the House would know whether the report was correct or incorrect. Sir Joseph Ward, in replying to Mr Massey's first question, said that it was not usual to fix a day for the second reading of a Bill in the way <itesired_ This intimation would appear upon the Order Paper. How could he name a day when he could; not tell when the work now before tbe House would he finished? Mr Massey: "You mean that you will give Tie half an hour's notice?" Sir Joseph Ward: "You have always had more than half an hour's notice."Mt Bollard: "I suppose we will get the Bill next June?" Sir Joseph Ward: "Notice will be given in the usual way upon the Order Paper." THE PLEA FOR THE LEASEHOLD. Mr Taylor said it was common talk that the Bill had been shorn of all its freehold clauses, but that they had been reinserted as the result of bringing in an Opposition member who was not present at the former meeting. This member (Mr Guthrie) had to be sent for- specially to restore .to the Bill clauses that were going to take away from this country the vested interests of the people in the renewable lease. That was what was stated', and if it was true, this country was coming to a pretty pass. It amounted to -this, that the Liberal Party was practioally in coalition with the most conservative interests in the House in regard to most important measures of policy. The Government were in this position, that their policy could only be maintained by a combination vote. The Bill, he supposed, would now be brought forward and the House would be "bull dosed" into passing it. The process of exhaustion would be brought to bear under atmospheric conditions that during the next three weeks would lead to the surrender of any party to enable it to get home and get away. An hon. member: "You won't see it down this session." Mr Taylor. "I don't know. It is said whom the gods destroy they first make mad." " Mr Massey: "Whom they wish to deBtroy." Mr Taylor: "Anyhow, they are in a great hurry to bring it down now.- No doubt they are afraid it may lose some riore of its limbs. (Laughter.) I congratulate Mr Guthrie on the importance ihe has assumed in the counsels of the Empire. Things have come to a pretty pass when Opposition votes have to be brought to the aid of the Government by telegraph." Sir Joseph Ward': "That's not true so far as I am concerned.'' 'Mr Taylor: "That may be so, but a few days ago only the Prime Minister and the Almighty had the slightest notion of what the land policy of the Government was—(laughter),—and the Almighty had not taken us into His confidence at all, nor had the Prime Minister. (Laughter.) The great dominating party in New Zealand politics could not have told what they land policy of the great Liberal Party was; no one knew now." Mr Taylor went on to refer to the importance of the Liberal members in regard to tho making of their Cabinets, and in regard to the contemplated legislation. They were useful, only for some, purposes, but not for major purposes, only for minor purposes. Ihis kind of legislation was & reflection on every member of the House. The members of the Liberal Party in actual politics were automatons. This Land Bill was a breach of trust. In reply to an interjection about some newspapers changing their opinions, Mr Taylor said that was so, and many of them were now silent'; many of them had lost courage. There was apparently a sort of mesmeric power attaching to Cabinet/influence in this country—a power that robbed ooth the newspaper Press *_d the public man of their sem» of duty and trust. pxu-lr ' M * mber: '^ he P 0 of *he Mr Taylor went on to say that they n « 0 f fc A*M' y * resistance power of the House would be The Hon. A. T. Ngata: 'The ™> W er __ DC V riU > ■" eoTng as yon are,there. & Mr Taylor: "What does he say?" and Mr Taylor enquired of hon. mcmi 2Lw2R t *l- mter a? ct,on - Tkis was explained to him. Turning upon the Maori member, be then proceeded to

castigate him. "Mr Ngata," said Mr Taylor, ''may be very funny, but he must remember that he is occupying a position that he would never have occupied had it been left to the members of this House to decide. At least, therefore, he might be modest when, he is dealing with the affairs of the white people of the country, and when the Maori land question comes up I'll expect him to plead on behalf of his Deople. as we are now pleading on behalf of tho white people.' That, continued Mr Taylor, was not a becoming interruption on Mr Ngata's part against as honest a protest as was ever made in this House on broad lines. It would be just as scandalous a breach of trust to force the native owners of the Greymouth areas to giv* up the ownership of that land to satisfy the greed of the European population, as to ask the people to give up their title, and the title cf their children, in these lands. For What ? To secure in their present positions the Cabinet of this country. A Government Member: "Hear, hear." "It is an appalling fact," added Mr Taylor ••that the Labour Party should find the Minister for Railways, who time after time has declared his absolute hostility to any further alienation ot the public estate, sitting silent on this issue, whereas he should have led the forces of the opposition to the propcsal. Is the mere fact of his occupying a Cabinet position a justification for tho abandonment of his principles?" asked Mr 'favlor with dramatic gesture. "Is his Cabinet position It. be the price of his silence. \\"e claim his assistance; we have a right to it. We ought also to have the assistance of Mr Fowlds. _his Land Bill ha. no right to pass this session at all. .-.-»t least we ought to give the people six months in which to realise the momentous changes proposed." Mr Poole: "Hear, hear.'' Mr Taylor said there were thousands of small farmers who would oppose the freehold proposals in the Bill. An Opposition Member: ''Nonsense.' Mr Taylor: "The man who says nonsense doesn't know what he is talking about. There are thousands of men today who are being dragged at the heels of this cry for the freehold and who never would have been farmers but for the leasehold system." t Voices: "That's right." Mr Taylor: "It's only because they want to gamble in land' values that they want this." AN AMENDMENT. Mr Herries moved an amendment to add to the motion "and that the minutes of the proceedings of the committee in reference to this Bill be laid on the table of the House and printed." This, he said, would give tho Head «.f the Government en opportunity to reply to the severe strictures of Mr Taylor, ■so that he thought he was doing th© Government a service. (Laughter.) Mr McLaren said' that the Labour Party in the past would have been reedy to cut the throats of tho Liberals rather than assist them to sell, the people's heritage, as was now proposed. Ho denounced the policy of appealing to the passion of greed. If he had to stay in the House six months, and half-a-dozen members would stand by him, no freehold proposals would go through. Mr Massey said that he knew nothing of what had taken place in the Lands Committee, although he had heard certain rumours in the lobby. He wished to make an explanation in regard to Mr Guthrie, who was absent from the House to-day owing to the death of a relative. Whether Mr Guthrie had been sent for to attend the meeting of the Lands Committee he could not say. Mr, Hardy (Opposition Whip): "He was not sent for." Mr Massey: *T'm just informed that Mr Guthrie was not sent for. It is a fact that he attended the meeting of the committee this morning, and in that he was only doing his duty. Mr Arnold: "You won't deny that the matter was held over from yesterday?" Mr Massey said he knew nothing about the proceedings of the committee. ' Speaking of the Bill, he said that he was supporting it, and that he wished' to go a great deal further than the Bill pro,p-sed. Mr Witty: r 'You haven't a hope." Mr Massey, in referring to Mr Taylor's remark as to the House being "bull-dosed" into passing the Bill, said "whether I drive the Government or whether I lead them, and I have done both—-" The Hon. R. McKenzie: "You can't do either." Mr Massey: "Whether I do one or the other, I will not be a party to "lacing any legislation on the statute book by a process of exhaustion; I will not do it." (Hear, hear.) Continuing, Mr Massev said that it was .aot correct, as might be inferred from Mr Taylor's remarks, that if the freehold Bill passed there would be nothing left m the shape of leasehold. Speaking as the Leader of the Freehold Party, he said that tho option of the freehold should be siven to all. A Member: "Then the leasehold cannot last, and you know it." Mr Massey: "I am a believer in the leasehold for those who want it, but I also believe in the option of the freehold." Mr Russell: "Do you mean that a man who takes up a lease to-day should have the right to get the freehold tomorrow ?"' Mr Massey: "Certainly; if he has complied with the requirements, and has shown that he is "a bona fide settler." Mr Ell: "That would mean, the abolition of freehold." DENIAL OF "BULL DOSING." The Prime Minister said that one absolutely gross misrepresentation had been removed during the speech of the Leader of the Opposition, and that was the statement that Mr Guthrie had been sent for. He assumed from Mr Massey's statement that no member of the Opposition sent for Mr Guthrie, and certainly no Government member sent for him, and no request had been made by himself. It seemed to him extraordinary that those members who favoured the leasehold tenure only were ready to grasp at any shadow to oreate the impression that the Government or himself had been acting wrongly. In regard to the suggestion, of "bull dosing," he had to cross swords with the Leader of th© Opposition. Mr Massey had said "Whether I drive or lead the Government and I have done both—l .ifn not in favour of a process of exhaustion. Itwas very wonderful to see what extraordinary capacity Mr Massey assumed to himself when it was convenient, and he did not know when Mr Massey had driven the Government. Mr Massey: "Ask the country." The Prime Minister said that Jxr Massey had not done so in his time or in that of his predecessor, and ho did not think he was likely to succeed in a driving policy. He was welcome to say that he was driving the Government, but it was an idle boast. Neither did he know any instance in which Mr Massey had led the Government. Mr Massey: "I don't know whether 1 m leading, but you're following mc." (Laughter). The Prime Minister: "I don't know whether I am following you yet; so far j I have not done so." Continuing, Sir ' Joseph Ward said he was not in the interests of the country to have any "bull dosing" on any Bill, and he never had been. Any man who applied this term to the Government forgot its history with regard to every fight on great measures in recent years. There had never been a great measure in, trodooed without the public having a FoU opportunity of considering it.

A Member: "Has this been before the country?" The Prime Minister said he did not know a man on either side of the House who had not had the land question before him at his election. Mr Taylor: '"There was not a man on your side who at the hustings said he would let renewable leases be converted to freehold. ; ' Sir Joseph Ward: 'There was not a man who before it was put on the statute book said he was favourable to tbe renewable lease; you can't deny it." Mr Taylor: "Oh, yes, I can." Sir Joseph Ward stated that the Liberal party was demanding a shorter lease for*ten years past. AGAINST A REFERENDUM. A referendum on this question, said the Prime Minister, would be useless and certain to defeat the intentions of its advocates. If they took the opinions of the constituencies, and added these together to get the opinion of the country as a whole, those constituencies and members which did not believe with Mr Taylor, and those associated with him, would still persevere in their opinions, even if a majority of the whole country affirmed the position. Mr Taylor was urging that after the referendum was taken, a majority of the constituencies would compel their members to support that tenure in the House which the individual constituencies themselves desired, and there would be just the same differences in the House as there were to-day. This question would have had to come up this session if the Government had not moved in the matter. It was the fact of the Government moving that prevented it coming up in some other form. Mr Arnold: "It won't be settled if you put this through." Sir Joseph said he was not satisfied that it would ever be permanently settled. To ihe leaseholders he would say that the various Liberal Administrations 'had made it a cardinal feature of their programme to endeavour to hold on to a portion of the public estate. " Nine-tenths of the Crown tenants had turned right round against the tenure under which they were placed on the land. Strong men residing outside the cities—in all the country electorates—had in recent year?; changed their views on the land question. Whether critics liked it or not, they could no more stop the current of politics bein? carried out in accordance with the will of the people than they could stoo the Pacific Ocean from moving. It should not be forsrotten that for the first time in the history of the country there were nine million acres set aside under the leasehold system. Mr Taylor: 'They will go, too." Sir Josenh Ward : "Yes, if you and your friends have their way." Mr Taylor: "Bunkum." __ T J l< \ Prime Min >ster went on to say that the country could rot continue to borrow money as it was doing, even W the acquisition of lands for settlement. . Mr Witty: "Why not? The money is interest bearmar." Sir JomW, Ward: '-WW is the eood of you talking about it being interest bearing if you can't get the money?" The debate at this stage was inter £L P c", th * 5 - 3 P P-, m - adjournment. The Speaker said that the Prime Minister could resume his speech tomorrow. re-. Later.' # In referring to a remark on the subject by an.Onposition member this fining, the Prime Minister said : — When the proper time comes I am quito prepared to say what took place in the Lands Committee, and to say it straight out. I did not do anything that was not quite rieht and proper, or anything that I would not hesitate to do'again under similar circumstances."