DEPUTATION TO THE PREMIER.

Press, Volume LII, Issue 9126, 10 June 1895, Page 5

DEPUTATION TO THE PREMIER.

MR SEDDON'S REPLY. The Hon. tho Premier met a i!<u)tiUtfoa from the local bodies and others »o the Provincial Council Chambers on aatur* day respecting - the unemployed tion. Among those presont wero thoir Worships tho Mayors of Christchurcb end Lytteiton, Air Waymouth (St. Albaa3 Couucil), Mr C. Burgcaa (Avon Road Bovrd), Messrs W. W. Collins, J. Joyco, J. G. Smith, G. \V. Russell, D. Buddo, M.H.R.'s, Mr R. M. Taylor, Mr J. JDawaou (Chairman of C\B.A.b.R.S.), the Hon. W. Montgomery, M.L.0., Mr H. B. Kirk (President Industrial ond Mr G. Humphreys (President of the Chamber 4 of Commerce). There were between forty and fifty othera preseut, either in the gallery or gathered about the door of the Chamber. The Mayor of UuaisTCHuacfl iutroduced tho deputation, and explained that at a meeting of representatives from local bodies and dilfc-renb organisations at the Council Chambers, last Monday, it was resolved to ask the Government if they would subsidise money raised tor tho relief of the unemployed and would open up some of the lauds on the Midland Railway. Ho night say that* the resolutions vrere not passed altogether by tho local bodies, who looked upon the qaost'ou as a colonial one, and that tiiey had done nil they could to relieve the distress. Bis Council hud passed a resoluiion that it could do no more than it had done. Mr Seddox said it was for those present to slate what was proposed to be dove, after which he would give the mind of the Government on the matter. After a short period of silence, Mr Kcssell, AJL.H.R., said that as no one appeared ready to speak, he would state uaat seemed to him to be the position. Owing to the breakdown of tho cereal growtu the unemployed trouble had become more and more severe, as the grow* iug oi graiu, &c, gave more employment) than was afforded in connection with the rearing of sheep and cattle for the frozen meat trade. Tliia year there was a large amount of congestion, aud it was considered that it was v tiino when the Government should be asked to assist. He referred to the meeting held, a& which tho resolutions wero passed, which wore i of or red to by the Mayor, aud remarked that though it waf attended by members of local bodies, many present were not accredited by thoic respective Councils to do more than report, so that at present no local bodies had endorsed tho resolutions, and same, like tho City Council, had taken up a position which he submitted they ought uot to have done. He waa of opinion that tho Govornmont should nob bo asked to remove the men from their families. He believed it the Government wero willing to give assistance no doubt nreouuro would bo brought to boas to have work provided by the local bodies* As to the Midland railway it waa thought that U3 it was now virtually in the hands of the Government something could be dove oa suggested, but there were difficulties ill the way. Then there waa the suggestion that tho Government should do something undor the Lands for Settlement Act. He mentioned also that on some of the near railway plantations trees had died, and thus ro-plantinq might bo used as an outlet for th<- men. There would bo no difficulty in finding trees, Mr R. M. Taylob dopreoatefl the moving of people from their fatniUoa to other parts of the colony, and e&id ho hoped that the local bodies, with assistance from the Go* vernmont, would bu able to find work oloso ao homo for the men. Ho considered the rysteni of separating families as iug. If tho Government made a liberal offer he had no doubt the looal bodies would bo compelled to adopt a, cours" wbiob. would bo for tho benefit of the people around. Hβ was firmly of opinion that the better plan was the opening up of large estates, and he hoped that ere long he would see suoh places as Glenmark open for settlement. Mr Surra, M.11.R., pointed oat that last year the unemployed wero assisted through , the pinch of tho winter, aud in doing ao many of tho local bodies strained their fluanoee to almost their limit. Consequently they were nob now in a position to grapple with the trouble. Last year tin country local bodies practically bad no great strain and the town bodies now thought that their country neighbours ehould bear a lair share of the burden. Th- idea was that if a subsidy were granted, and the looal bodies wen mad? trustees to expend the money something might be done in that way. If it were only the question of sixty or seventy men past the meridian of life, the local bodies could no doub , ' manage, but thero wero hundred* of able-bodiod men unemployed, end it waa thought the people had a right to come to the Government and ask that assistance should bo afforded to relieve the distress andor which they were suffering. Mr Dawson hoped tho Government would bo ablo to take complete control of the difficulty, whidh he thought might) be met, or partially mot, by an income tax on all incomes over £100. Mr Bubcess said ho did not think it waa wise to send men away and leave thoir families dependent on charitable aid. II a sum of money wore granted, no doubt looal bodies would find work to keep the men in the place. As far as the Avon Road Board was oonoerned, it had twenty miles of roads! that were unformed, which could be used Aβ an outlot for relief. Mr Waymouth said the St. Albona Conn* oil rocoguised the urgency of the case, bat were in the position of having no funds at their disposal to be subsidised. They would, however, be willing to help the Government could it manage to assist tho city and suburban local bodies to relieve the unemployod. / Mr Collins iaid there wero in Christchurch about 106 unemployed, wbo had between 300 and 400 aoule dependent, oa them. It appeared to him that they had arrived at a deadlock through the looal bodies having decided to do nothing, and the Government being unable to grant subsidies to them. What really waa wanted was some immediate assistance, and those who were wanting it threw themselves oa the clemency of the Government, who were aaked if they could recommend anything which would go towards solving tho difficulty. Ho felt that it was the duty ot both tho State and local bodies to do something. If the latter could not then tho former were asked to. He alluded to the fact that come twenty men were going away to employment. It was rumoured that they were going to half-time employment. If that were so it appeared to him that very little -sr no relief would reach their families. Mr Joyce looked upon the question is & broad sense, and said that to grant the local bodies here the assistance asked, meant granting it to similar bodies all over the colony. That would not be feasible, bub he thought it would be feasible to do something in respect of tho Midland »&»* way, which was now in the hands of tee Government. . Mr Kibk did not know what would be the end, the rate the unemployed question was increasing in difficulty every year. He knew that local bodies hud little funds to asabt. He was of opinion that if people would support and depend on themselves there would be work enough for all. For instance, if in the matter of boots people wore colohial-mado articles there would be immediate employment for some 10.UUU people. These remarks would also apply in some measure to other trades. Mr Daoombe said there was nobbing done to assist the able necessitous man, who bad in the past been assisted under tho old Public Works policy. He handed in a list of people who were in need of immediate employment to help their families. The Mayor of Lyttelton said that bis Conncil was of opinion th*C the question was a State one. His Council last yeax spent £300 in assisting the unemployed, and had now a big overdraft Ho attributed a lot of the depression to the fact that many men found work in the summer and thea manfully spent their cheques and went on the winter unemployed list. . If men lived moro economically he felt that there would be lees of the trouble. Aβ to men being sent away, he suggested that the single men should be sent inetead of heads of families. The Hon. the Pbemieb said that he was disappointed with the deputation. When he received a telegram asking him to meet representatives from local bodies and others, he expected he would meet a body of gentlemen who would have some well prepared practical scheme to place before him, wiw» which he would be ablo to de»l. An

they came * before him that day, the position appeared to him to be * unique one, *if he might say so. One gentleman had/told him that there was no one present in a position to pledge the local bodies they represented to any scheme, and be was also told that at the Tuesday's meeting the members were there informally, and not accredited to do anything more than report to their respective bodies. If the nutter was of such moment as they would have him inform the Government surely the least one might expect was that the Jocal bodies would have some suggestions, because they did havo responsibilities in this matter, whatever they might say to the contrary. There was no use in blinking that fact; there waa nothing like apeaking out plainly. Under tho Act under which they wero constituted they had a duty to perform which was different from that of a charitable aid body. The position these local bodies had taken up was a childish one. The duties of local bodies were laid down hy the Legislature, and if they did not perform them, then the local bodies had no right to be where they were. Had the local bodies come with resolutions that if the Government would assist them £1 for £1, they were prepared to put works in hand aud help the Government to cope with the unemployed difficulty, there would be some* thing to so upon. Did they come ao prepared ? Was there any one local bedy so prepared ? There was not one. Then they asked what wonld the Government do. If he gave them an answer in the affirmativo the members would go back stating what the Premier was prepared to do, and then they would discuss the matter and see what they could do. This was only playing with the question, and putting both the local bodies and himself in a peculiar position. As to subsidies, they muat know as well as he did that the Government could only .expend moneys in the way they were permitted by Parliament, and in accordance with the law which distinctly forbade the granting of subsidies unless the particular work for whioh they were asked end the particular body which was to receive them were specified in the Estimates. By tbe law under which they worked the local bodies would be surcharged, and the members become personally responsible fcr I illegal expenditure. The General Govern-j ment was tied up in a similar manner. If it was to go outside the law and offer subsidies such as were asked the reply from the Auditor and Controller-General, when the vouchers went in, would be that they must be stopped. But the law provided for subsidies. The rates were subsidised ; the contributions to the Charitable Aid Boards, Hospital Boards and Benevolent Trustees were subsidised. The Legislature said the State should pay certain moneys for specific purposes. The local bodies could not say the Government had failed in its duty, and this was a complete answer to the local bodies when they stated that they had no duties cost upon them in this matter. If they had no duties in that respect, why take money from the State and why collect money from the taxpayer ? This emergency, tbia unemployed difficulty, was now more acute than it had been for some time, and they had not to seek far for the cause. A difficulty met was more than half overcome, and he felt sure he voiced the feelings of the people of Canterbury and Christchurch, and the local governing districts, when he •aid that if the members would take the lead they would have the people at their back to support them. The representatives on those bodies were not doing what the people wished them to do. He could not believe that there were people who would see their fellow human beings wanting for bread, or see intelligent and good .children wanting for the necessaries of life. It pained him to the heart's core to think that itshould be allowed to go forth to the world that this was a community where such a state of things was allowed to exist; that local authorities and our leading citizens would stand by and see it go on, and allow the question to resolve itself into a dispute aa to whose duty it was to deal with it. It was the duty of every manhigh or low, rich or poor—with what means he hod at his command to see that no fellow being wanted for bread. What would the Government do consistent with law? Lost year when the Wellington people contributed £500 and the Wellington Council made a special grant oi £500 to the Wellington Benevolent Institute the voluntary contributions were sabeidisod by 24s to the £, and the amount from the local body by £1 to the £1 on the Touchers and a declaration that tbe money waa to be applied for benevolent purposes. There was a recent case in Dunedin. He received a telegram from Mr Chisholm, Chairman of the Benevolent Institute, stating--" We are led to believe that £1000 can be raised in the city of Dunedin to meet the present! unemployed emergency. What are the Government prepared to do t" His reply was to the effect that the Government was prepared to snbsidise, providing that the money was used solely for benevolent purposes. That was the position in Dunedin. But compare that with what the people here had done.

The Mayor—We did exactly the same. The Premier—This winter t The Mayor—No, lost winter. The Premier continued that having seen their way last winter to do that and the necessity being greater this winter, surely the feelings of humanity of the people here were not dead because the summer had intervened. If they recognised their duty last winter and received assistance, why not do tha some this winter T Why allow this trouble to go so far as it had gone ? Having done something last winter, he hoped the meeting would have the effect of moving bis Worship to do now what his predecessor had thought was the proper thing. It would not be creditable to the Mayor of this city—one of the _rgesb cities in the colony—to quietly stand by doing nothing. If hia Worship moved as suggested, he would do credit to himself and to this great city. Now what had the Government done ? It foresaw that there would be difficulties this winter, and it put £20,000 on the estimates for tbe unemployed. That amount had been more than spent before the end of the tin<MMff--l year. The Government had power to continue for three months a proportionate amount. Tbat had also gone, and the difficulty still existed. Then within fourteen months the Government had from the three centres—Canterbury. Wellington, and Dunedin—taken some 2000 men, for w horn employment hod been found through the Labour Bureau. That should strike any man who was prepared to be guided by reason, as having been a stupendous work for the Government to do with the limited means at its command, because the three centres were not the whole of New Zealand. There were now twice the number of co-oper-ative men there had been any time previously. Whilst the Government had done this, what hod the local bodies done ? He did not think there was a local authority in New Zealand which bad put forth its hand to help the Government. Then he was told what be could scarcely crodit, that persons with means, who could employ men, had deliberately refused to give employment, and that they did this partly to accentuate tbe trouble and make tbe difficulties greater for the General Government. Men had said that who hod been round the pastoral country. He took a brighter view of human nature, and would not credit the statement. There were a few perhaps inhuman enough to do such » thing, but he hoped the statement was considerably exaggerated, that there were not more than a few who for politic-! purposes would calmly watch their fellows suffering. He knew that those seeking employment and the labour organisations did not credit it themselves. An important factor had to be borne in mind. During tne last year prices received for wool, frozen meat and tbe staple products had been very low. A number of persons who had shipped their wool Home bad really drawn more against the wool than they hal received for it, so that instead of moneys available to provide employment they had actually to raise money to make good the advances. These men had not the means to give employment, and some might have been stupid enough when men applied to them to say, "Go to the Government." Well the man who bad tramped all day, whose feet wero sore, and whose stomach was empty, would resect this against any class who said it. To such they should extend their sympathy for the great trc-ible which had overtaken them. He felt that this stoppage of employment for political purposes was not widespread, though do doabt there were a few trans-f-rnaurs. Tie Government, he submitted, J-*d grappled with the difficulty so far, and wench a way as should meet with general oomtneodatia-. He wanted to put this frtoisuy t» item »o that tfaere should be no.

misunderstanding. The Government was not prepared to allow this question or any other to put it in a position beyond what its finances would permit. To maintain its credit and pay its way it mast keep its expenditure within its income. Thia had caused serious trouble to the Government and had already cast discredit on the great party to which they belonged; and therefore Ministers had resolved to avoid the same error agaiu. To the people which the present Government represented he would say •* Do not ask us to again bring discredit on you." Though there had been and | there was suff he could not go beyond ' the means Parliament had given him to i provide employment. Io answer to Mr Collins he would say that the men were not going on half time ; but the Government had double the number of men it had during the conesponding period last year. The Government had only a limited appropriation and it must be spread over the largest possible surface. The working time of the men on the cooperative wo.ks had simply been reduced by one-fifth, which meant that work could be found for an additional 500 men. Now, as most of tho men had been making the current rate of wages, to take one-fifth from them and provide bread and butter for another 500 of their fellow-sufferers and allow them to live was following out what had been laid down by the labour organisations in the Old Country and in New Zealand. This principle was also suggested by the Wellington Typographical Association when they waited on him about a large number of printers who were out of work, and suggested that they should have a fortnight about at the Government Printing Office, which would enable them to live. While reducing the time by one-fifth, the Government scouted the idea of reducing the pay, which, of coarse, would have had a similar effect. From Chiistchurch, since the 4th of May, 50 men had been provided with employment. Compare that with what had been done by the local authorities and tha people of the place, and surely under such circumstances no reflection could be cast on the Government. It rested very largely with the local bodies to cope with the difficulty. And this brought him to the statement that the Avon Road Board had twenty miles of unformed roads. Here was a chance. The local bodies had power to raise money. Here was an opportunity for the Avon Road Board to apply, under the Loans to Local Bodies Act, get the money and use it, thus increasing the value of their properties, and inducing people to settle in the district. It was an opportunity for the Avon Road Board to set an example. The money was in the hands of the Colonial Treasurer. They had only to make application for it and then put their men to work. (Applause.) The Government was trying to help in another direction by the purchase of private lauds. A great trouble to Canterbury and Christchurch was the fact that large tracts of land were in the hands of a few. They were worked for a certain time. Then came a blank, and the men flocked to the towns, where they became a burden on the community. When the Government could acquire these lauds work would be provided in roading them and settling them, and so far as the settlers were concerned their difficulty would be removed. In the past land was bought too dear and owners would not come down to the inevitable ; people who had lent money on the land would not come down, and this was the difficulty found in Canterbury. Time after time applications had been received by the Purohaaing Board, but the difference between tbe selling price fixed by the owners and the purchasing price of the Board was such that there was no chance of the land being brought within a saleable figure. The previous day he had received a telegram from the Hon. Mr Reeves that the Board had reconsidered some applications, and that they were now ready to submit them to the Cabinet for approval. He had communicated with the Minister of Lands, and asked him to have the recommendations put before the Cabinet. He (Mr Seddon) would be, in Wellington on Monday when, no doubt, the lands would be approved. Then these amended offers would be sent to the 'owners, and the probabilities were that 90 per cent, would refuse to accept the terms offered by the Board. The State had appointed this ooard of conscientious men, and it was not right that they Bhould be expected to give more for the land than it was worth. It were better not to buy land at all than to buy land and pnt men on it at such rents a* would not admit of their making a living. However, nothing should be wanting on the Eart of himself and his colleagues to acquire _ds. As soon as this was done it would be delightful to him to say, " We have pur* chased some of these farms ; there is road work and we can take fifty men and put them on it." From what had been said by Mr Taylor, he (Mr Seddon) wondered what the people were thinking about tha*) they forced the Government to remove some of the population. If there were anything calculated to bring down values it was that. Those who owned properties would find out at the end of a year that in depreciation they bad lost more than if they had spent a little to assist tbe Government in keeping the men in the place. As to the aged and infirm, other places would have good cause to complain if the Government transferred such people from Christchurch to other districts, there to become a burden on the community. The Charitable Aid Act made provision for such cases. The Government assisted by finding work for six months, and then the men had to get it somewhere else. This phase of the question had not struck him before, and surely it was not right that the burden of one local body should be shifted to another. He had laid thia down, that so long as there were reproductive works to construct so long would he ask Parliament to find money for them, and so long as the work had to be done it should be done by those in our midst who required employment. The co-operative system—much as it bos been abused by those who were not in a position to criticise it—had beeu a commendable effort to grapple with the unemployed difficulty. That which had been done waa as satisfactory as could be wished. It waa true that some of the men had been on the works for three years, and were beginning to look upon it as a thing to be provided every time. The Government had found thia work, and for three years men had made wages, yet they were no better off. As they earned their money ao they spent it, and hotels had made a good living alongside of the co-operative works, while the wives of some of the men had been receiving charitable aid. If men who had made big earnings in the past had been thrifty and put a little by, had not drunk so much or frittered away their money, there would now be less distress. The fact was that New Zealand was becoming a pleasure loving com-nunity, the theatres and circuses were well tilled, and the totalisators were patrouised, and while tbia lasted we should have the state of things which now existed. If public men would put their foot down and endeavour to inculcate thrift, then we should be in a fair way to reform. Instructions had been given to hia officers that the kind of men he had referred to should not be kept on co-operative works. They must go, and if they suffered it served them right. As to railway planting, he would be told that the Department had no extra vote, and the revenue last year fell short. (Mr Russell—" It's p : cking up now.") That might be, still he did not see that the tree planting would help much. He would, however, place the suggestion before the Minister for Railways. The question of country versus town had been raised in the statement that the unemployed left the country and became an extra burden on the towns. There was something in the statement. But what was moat painful to him. was this: He knew there were some local authorities—without specifying any in Canterbury—who really hod large sums of money on deposit, and were not calling upon the ratepayers for rates. Now was a most opportune time to deal with this surplus deposit. The Government was shortly going to deal with the question of local government, and these surpluses would probably go into the general pooL (Laughter.) He gave thia j not as a threat, bnt as a broad hint of how that money could be reproductively spent. That this should exist showed a defect in the system : that there were too many of these small bodies, and not one of them had sufficient funds to meet the present emergency. As regarded the Midland Railway, for some time past it had given the Government great anxiety. It had for three years been practically a dead letter. Three years ago it was said the Company had no money; that its.fanda were exhausted. The question beoome whether it should be permitted

to go on or whether the contract should be determined _nd the State placed in possession. Now he had no hesitation in saying that the original contract had been determined, and had the Government the plans for the extension he had no hesitation also in saying that in the present emergency there was no question about the next section being gone on with. It would have been a matter for the Government to have accepted the grave responsibility, aud relied upon Parliameut ratifying what had been done. As it stood there were no plans, and Government could not do much, though he had told his officers to go carefully into the matter, and on his return to Wellington he would have a report from them on the situation. Hitherto the Government had not shirked its duties, and it did not intend to, but he wanted this to be understood, that the Government would not allow the unemployed class—anymore than it would the pastoralißts were they to apply to the Government to administer in respect of their industry—to set aside law and order, nor would the Government take it upon itself to raise money and scatter it broadcast among the local bodies to spend at their own sweet will. (Applause.) He was surprised to hear such a proposition put to him by sensible men. Supposing the Government were to do sucii a thing, why then the local bodies would wait for winter to put work in hand and tell the men they must do it at starvation rate 3. If the Government did such a thing it wonld deserve to be condemned by every person and colonist. His reply might not be as satisfactory as they expected, but he had taken the trouble to reason out tbe matter with the deputation, so that all parties should understand their relative positions. In conclusion he would say that the Government with its co-operative works, its alternative system, and its purchase of Native and private lands was doing its beat to grapple with the question, and if there waa land in Canterbury, the owners of which would take the price offered by the Purchase Board, why all he could say was that a wire would come down at once and instructions would be given to have roads surveyed and men put on as speedily aa possible. In the meantime, he woukl ask the local bodies to assist the Government by taking an equal share of the trouble and meeting like New Zealanders as they did last winter, the unemployed difficulty. New Zealand was in the vau in every other respect, and why not in this ? Those who went crying at street corners and agitating round lampposts, finding fault first with the Government and then with the local bodies, he hoped would take some of the blame on their own shoulders, because a great deal lay at their door. Let there not be demonstrations. Why, in Dunedin it was represented that 400 wanted work, and when work was found ninety-seven toed the mark. In Christchurch it was represented that 100 were out oi work, and when men were asked for not one was to be found. It was wrong to tbe district and the colony that those statements should be allowed to go about, while as wise and prudent men the people should see that no deserving man or family was in want. So far as the Government was concerned, it was anxious to meet the matter honestly and fairly, and it would do so within the law. As long as he was Premier he was not prepared to allow any fellow beings to starve. (Applause). The May or said that Mr Seddon had lauded Wellington and Dunediu for what they had done for the unemployed, but ho would point out that he had assisted last year iv collecting £400 in Christchurch for the benefit of the unemployed. As to his position at the meeting, he (the Mayor) was there by invitation.

Mr Seddon said he did not intend his remarks to be personal. Christchurch had done well, and would do more yet. As to the local bodies generally he would tell them that the Government were not going to be forced by them- or anyone else, and that so far as he could see the Government were doing all that could well be expected of them.

Io reply to Mr Russell, M.* Seddon said that any subsidies given to locil bodies would be through the Charitable Aid Board, as last year.

In reply to Mr Collins, Mr Seddon said that if there were twenty men who were iv really necessitous circumstances he was prepared to send them away to work. Tbe Mayor then thanked Mr Seddon, and the deputation withdrew.