HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Press, Volume L, Issue 8544, 26 July 1893, Page 5

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

(press association tslbokam.) Tuesday, July 25. AFTERNOON" SITTING. The House met at 2.30 p.m. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. Farther leave of absence for a week was granted to Sir G. Grey on account of illness, and to Mr Mitchelson for a week owing to urgent private affairs. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Saunders, Mr REEVES said the object of the Workmen's Wages Bill was to protect the wages of all classes of workmen, but if further provisions were thought necessary for their protection they would receive consideration.

Replying to Mr J. Kelly, Mr REEVES said he would consider the question of making provision for securing proper accommodation for shearers and other employees in shearing sheds. Replying to Mr Hogg, whether in making advances to settlers on the security of their permanent improvements, the Government would place Government leaseholders upon the same footing as freeholders, Mr WARD said this master had received consideration, but at present all he could say was that it was unlikely the request would be agreed to. Replying to Mr Tanner, Mr J. McKENZIE said he feared it would be impossible to deal with the codlin moth pest by legislation this session, as the views of eettlers were so diverse on it.

Replying to Mr Shera, Mr REEVES said the police had received instructions to suppress such barbarous exhibitions as prize fights. Replying to Mr Palmer, Mr WARD said the Government could not allow farmers the privilege of obtaining fencing wire free of Customs duty. Replying to Dr. Newman, Mr CARROLL said Tawhiao had returned part of the pension granted to him by Mr Cadman as a question of policy, and he would not accept it any more. Replying to Mr E. M. Smith, Mr SEDDON said the only circular issued by Mr T. F. Rotheratn, Locomotive Superintendent on the Government Railways, was to the effeot that broken service Would count in the same way as continuous service for promotion.

Mr FISH moved the adjournment of the House, and spoke at some length on the question of the Fernhill Railway, claiming that the Railway Commissioners had no claim to the railway and asserting that Sir R. Stout was really the owner of the line through being a creditor. He urged that Sir R. Stout should not obtain a preferential advantage over the other creditors at the assistance of the Government.

Sir R. STOUT seconded the motion, and said it was better that this matter should have been brought before the House than that it should have been talked about in the lobbies behind his back and the insinuation made against him by Mir Fish. Hβ might if he chose refer to certain entries in the Dunedin Harbour Board's books, regarding bribery alleged against the honourable gentleman. {Mr Fish—l shall second any such motion or any other you like to move). He went on to explain that Mr Logan had bought a certain line and borrowed from his (Sir R. Stout's) firm, who held the first mortgage, but there were also second and third mortgages against the line. All that had been asked for was that the Government, as practically trustees for the private Company who owned the line, should hand the line to this private Company to construct. This had been brought forward by Mr Fish to have a personal fling at himself, because they did not agree in politics or in anything else. He suggested that the Bill, when it came before the House, should go before an impartial Committee of Opposition members to go into tha matter fully. After further discussion, The motion for adjournment was lost. FINANCIAL DEBATE.

Mr PARATA resumed the debate on the Financial Statement. He said Native legislation was a serious matter, and he thought two sessions would be well spent in dealing with, it alone. The Natives were quite in the dark as to the Native legislation, and it was due to them to have more information on it. He spoke at some length on the Native land question, and said that seeing the Natives represented 46,000 people, they should have a Minister to'represent them, instead of the Native Department being abolished. He regretted Mr Carroll had not been tully appointed to succeed Mr Cadman as Native Minister, as he believed he would be acceptable to the Native people. Mr Carroll at present had no power at all, and he was Native Minister in name only.

The House rose at 5.30 p.m. EVENING, SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr SEDDON referred to the difficult position in which he was placed on the present occasion, inasmuch as MrßoUestbn, as leader of the Opposition, had abrogated his position to his Mend, the member for Ellesmere. He (Mr Seddon) had been twitted with not having sufficient courage to reply to the Speech made by Sir J. Hall, but a good general chose his own time to act, and he had chosen the present opportunity. The debate had not been unduly prolonged, and it was only natural that members on both sides should be anxious to place their views before the country on such tea important occasion. He had no desire to be personal in what he was about to say, and he hoped when he sat down there would be no heartburnings. As to the financial policy of the Government, that had scarcely been touched at all by the Opposition, and "this; placed him in a difficult position. He would indeed assert that if two-thirds of the Opposition speeches had been analysed they would be found to be rather in favour of the Financial Statement than otherwise. No apology was required from either side of the House for the length of this debate, and there was no foundation whatever in the statement that the debate had been prolonged owing to a side issue. He had heard that Mr Bolleston was waiting for him (Mr Seddon) to speak, and further that Mr Bolleston would not have addressed the House unless the Premier had done so. He (Mr Seddon) held that if he had spoken after Sir J. Hall he would have been accused of a de- J sire to bring the debate to a close. He re- j gretted that the colony was about to loce the services of Sir J. Hall, and he desired to compliment that honourable gentleman on the speech he made on the Statement. At the. same time he (Mr Seddoa) could not withdraw a single word he had said respecting Sir J. Hall a old colleague, a gentleman whom he (Mr Seddon) greatly respected although he differed from him politically. The records of 1879 would not allow him to forget it, even if he were willing to do bo. He asserted that since 1879 there had been borrowing and reckless expenditure. The land of the people had been parted with. He had been asked why he referred to this matter ia his Auckland speech. It was because it had been aaid when the Liberal Government went oat of office it was weak in finance and that the country was robbed. He maintained that he was correct in saying the liability quoted by Sir BL Atkinson is 1879 waa a fictitious one, and he could prove on the authority of Mr Oliver, & former Pnblio Works Minister, that in 1879 there was £1,230,000 of liabilities as against the purchase of Native lands. He was prepared to prove by returns that Sir EL Atkinson overstated those liabilities ia various ways, that £50,000 had been quoted for the gnrohw of Native lands

jtefcead of £15,000, that $r E Atkbwm bad stated that one liability of £200,000 existed which should only bare beat £41,450, that £700,000 stood against ti* Public Works Fond which sboold have beea £440,000. When Sir J. Hall asked him Us revere Sir H. Atkinson's memory, he should also allow him to cherish the memoritid old friendships like Messrs Sheehau, Ballauee, and another well known and respected public man (Sir G. Grey), who was not in the House this session. Hβ then quoted from documents at great length in support of his contentions u»t Sir H. .Atkinson had overstated the liabilities in 1879. The reason why he had told the people of Auckland about these overstated liabilities was because it hr/l been so frequently asserted that the of the Grey Government had nearly wrecked the colony. He also justified the assertion he made in Auckland that the Atkinson Government had indulged in borrowing and squandering. Referring to the statement he had made that 14,293 people had left the colony during two years of tho last Atkinson administration, he quoted returns to prove what he had said about it. "Let them go, they will be good advertising agents ior the colony." He thought, however, it would be a bad day for the colony when its population left its shores. Coming to the Financial Statement, he should not deal with the details of the Budget, bat would leave that to his able lieutenant*, and here he desired to acknowledge the compU* ments that had been bestowed on Mr Ward for his successful Budget. He defended his Public Works policy, and said that op to the present the Government had met all their liabilities and still had something to go on. Sir J. HALL—" But what will you cave in March T) Well, the revenue was keeping up, so there was nothing to fear is that respect. The present Government had also to meet a sum of £153,000 for contracts entered into by the late Government, and which the present one was in no way responsible for. He defended the Govern* ment from the repeated charge of living Ott released sinking fund, and said the total amount they had obtained from that scarce for three years was a paltry £45,000, while* on 31st March there was no less than £177,000 to the credit of the public works fund. Referring to the graduated land tax and the criticism made against it that it would cause alarm, he said he did not think their proposals would injure the colony in any way, and he quoted from a speech made by Mr Scobie Mackenzie to the effect that the graduated tax was % sham, and would not have the effect of bursting up huge ontatoa as was claimed for it. If that were the opinion held by the Opposition, how could they now say it would injure the colony t What the Government wished by this tax was that there should be no aggregation of large estates. Sir J. Hall had stated that the Government had dealt unfairly by the country in favour of towns, but he quoted from returns to prove that the country would fare better under the Government proposals than the Opposition *d*nf*fr»fl. The proposals had been framed so as to be fair to both country and towns, and the Opposition would find that to be the case. Referring to Sir R. Stout's speech last week he said that hon. gentleman was in accord with the Government policy on all points except the graduated tax and tine exemption of improvements, but he was not opposed to the principle of exempting im« provements, only he feared that the nnance might Buffer through it. He had lately visited several parts of the country, and he found improvements taking place, and more labour being employed, which showed the wisdom of the Governmecb policy. The Government did not wish ta destroy confidence, or to cause alarm, bak they must be progressive in their taxation. He next referred to one of the most important questions of the day, that of deoliB& with Native lands, and he hoped the Hctue would not prorogue until an Act was rtnmni dealing fairly with the Natives, and at the same time promoting eettlemens. That brought him to a large question which aa I Government had yet dealt with, namely, that of taxing Native lands. He was surprised to find that the Natives themselves did not object to taxing their lands in disr tricta where they would get the benefites roads from the public works. Referring to the question of the Railway Commissioner*, he thought the Government proposal in that respect was one of the brightest proposal in the Budget, and it would restore to the people the power to deal with property which cost fifteen millions of rasmey, ana Would also put in the hands of the reprf* sentatives of the people the power whioe should never have been taken from them. One of the first acts of the Railway Cora? miasioners had been to increase the salaried of the higher officials, but no increase w»a made in the lower grades of the service. The Government was compelled to redoes its expenditure, but the Commissioners w| increasing ifc. No details was given, to the Government as to the way the moocri , Wc*a spent, although they were repeatedly applied to for farther rotet. After referring at great length to the whole question, he said the Government did &o& intend to abolish the Commissioners, ba£ they did intend to pub a Minister on the Board in order that some information might; be given to the House as to the expenditure; of the department. A great deal had been said against the construction of publla works on the co-operative principle, bat be asserted that if they went back to the old contract system it meant going back tp borrowing, and borrowing meant squandering. The. co-operative system, did not require a large loan or a balance at the Bank, and as to the argument that the works cos* 25 per cent, more than under the contract) eystem, they cost no more, in fact the earning of evea first-class men were very little more than those of men who earned current wages. If they dispensed with the co-opera-tive system the result would be disastrous in many respects and the colony would be flooded with men looking for work. Hβ thought it could not be denied that the colony was in a fairly prosperous condition, and the Government policy was meant to encourage people. As to the purchase ol the Cheviot estate .he would simpiT say that the Government were called upon to make that purchase and were advised to do so by the Commissioner of Taxes. With so many advantages also from a settlement point, of view, the Government were justified in purchasing the property and he felt satisfied that it would come out all right. He held that what w*a contained in the budget, namely, putting taxation on the shoulders of those who were able to bear it and the exemption of improvements were both steps in the right direction. The graduated tax would cause no alarm in the colony, and the Government were protecting labour by their labour proposals. As the world progressed they most advance with it. The Government had now placed their proposals fairly and fully before the country, and they would not go back, but were determined to stand oc fall hf their policy. Mr Seddon then resumed Ma seat, the speech having occupied .exactly three houra.

Mr P.OLLESTON said the Premier bad just talked for three solid hours, and thas he evidently followed his usual habit, and his own side even appeared to think be "Wβ* stonewalling. His speech was fall of wind and sound and foam, bat there was very little in it, either in facts or figures, ifr Seddon had stated that he (Sir Bolleston) had put him in & false position by sot speaking before, and stated that he abrogated bis position ; bat he hoped the Premier would in future wait until he had asked him for hie advice as to his action. It was fitting and proper that Sir 3. flail should open the debate, as he was a veteran Statesman, who was well qualified to do so, and the Opposition were perfectly satisfied with the way the ban. gentleman had perfonced his task. Mr Seddon had stated that there had been- no criticism of the Budget, bat h# contended that there baa, been ample debate oa ifc, and thafrtiie debate had shown that* it wae perilously ****- The Premier had really e*id nothing atwee the Budget in hie lengthy speech, fcfii yefc he had told them tbat if he hadepsacea before it would hare closed the debs ta. If that were so, why bad the debate not <&oae& now ? He deprecated raking dp of past Governments as the Premier had been doing, bat he would simply say that the verdict of the country was against the Grey Government in 1879, and that tfc| statements made by the Government of which Sir J. Hall was head- true. It was a discreditable statement for Mr Seddoa to make that Sir H. Atkinson had raised bcgua liabilities in order to discredit the previous Government. He (Mr Rolieston) asserted that there were £2,200,000 of outstanding liabilities when the five million loan was raited, and if the loan had not bam nlsad

there would have been serious financial difficulties. In addition to that, there was £900,000 liabilities for land purchases which had to be met. He quoted from a speech of the late Mr Macandrew, who stated that it had been charged against the Grey Government that the five million loan had been forestalled. Mr Macandrew said, •* Of course it waa forestalled, and a good job too." As to Mr Seddon'e statement about the population leaving the colony, the fact was that the Atkinson Government had introduced a system of economy after a period of public works expenditure. But what did they find at present? Why, there were more unemployed in the colony now than ever before. In Chriatchurch alone he bad eoen it stated that theie were nearly 700 men out of work. This etate of things waa largely owing to the ridiculous policy of the Government, also to their bunkum cries and mob oratory. There had not been a einglo new industry slarted for the l&et two or three years, and in many cases men only obtained two or three days' work in a week where formerly they got five or six. The fact was that the industrial classes were beginning to find Ministers out, notwithstanding all they claimed in this direction. Referring to Mr Beddon's remarks on the railways he said the country recognised that the Government of the dt-y did well on the whole in placing the railways in the hands of the three gentlemen at present on the Board. It was not fair to suppress the fact that the Government did their best to get a qualified man from Home before they Appointed the present Commissioners. He hem it was degrading for Ministers of the Crown to go on to every platform and attack high officers of the Crown as the present Government attacked the Commissioners, and he thought when it came that either the Commissioners or the Premier should go his opinion was that the verdict of the country would bo that the Premier should go and not the Commissioners. As to the increased expenditure of the Commissioners which the Premier made so much of, the Commissioners themeelves explained that it was owing to the increased traffic and damage from floods. Could any senBible men condemn them on that score t (The Premier had complained that the Commissionera had incurred enormous expenditure, and submitted estimates which no one could explain; but, if so, more shame to Mr Seddon, for it was his business by law to make himself acquainted with these estimates. He combatted at some length Sir R. Stout's arguments on the subject of Parliament having control of the railways, and said the Act appointing the Commissioners was deliberately passed by Parliament, and it would be a great wrong to alter it without consulting the people. Ho thought the Opposition hadevery reason to be satisfied with the debate to show the weakness of the Government - finance even if they had only to rely on the speeches on their own side of the House, but the fact was ' that the remarks of many members on the Government aide absolutely pulled the policy of the Government to piecew. He particularly referred to the speeches made by' Sir R. Stout, Messrs Blake, Earnshaw, Carncross, McGuire and R. Thompson. The general impression left on his mind by the Government finance was that it was in a great muddle. They had now introduced a fresh system of taxation such as they had not dared to introduce for some ten years, and the effect of which they utterly failed to comprehend. The verdict of the country would be, he felt sure, that the incidence of the taxation was not equitable. Even the Colonial Treasurer himself had not grasped it, and he apparently did not-know how it was going to turn out. The taxation was in no way relieved to those who earned their bread by the sweat of their brow. The middle classes were escaping taxation, whilst the wealthy would have to bear additional burdens. The new taxation was also largely in favour of towns, as was shown by Captain Russell. He saw no improvement at all in the new taxation. Banks -and monetary institutions were let off by it, although the Government professed a great desire to get at those institutions. He believed when a radical change was made it was nob in the Interest of the country to make another Sudden change. He objected to the graduated tax as a punitive tax, and he Hoped the Government would see their way to go back, upon that. They had no right to pursue the aggrandisement of one class at the expense of another. Mr Reeves had rather incautiously told the House that Mr Scobie Mackenzie had stiffened the graduated tax, aud that if he did not take care it • would be stiffened further, but what a spirit in which to approach the question of taxation. He was x satisfied that the Government had " not felt the effect of their policy. The industrial classes were feeling the result of the taxation now. and yet he and others were attacked on every platform by Ministers for telling the people that they were being deluded by 'the Government. As to the surplus, he felt it waa accidental, and not to be relied on. He was satisfied that the surplus anticipated for next year was not such as to construct public works out of. current revenue. Any system of public works which depended on an accidental surplus "Was to his mind simply madness. The position now was that the loan money was largely used, and was nearly done, and at the end of the financial year not a single sixpence would be left if the revenue did not keep up. How, then, could public works be constructed ? He did not think at present there was cause for alarm, there was cause for prudence and caution. The whole system of taxatiou was disorganised, and they wanted a strong finance and careful administration. The Treasurer had a difficult task to perform, but there would in time be kite flying. He did not think that £260,000 of borrowed money should be spent on the Cheviot Estate when so many people could not get on tho land. It was all very well to tulk about taxing Native lands, but he did not think that the Premier with all the confidence he felt in himself would find it bo easy a matter to deal with. The fact was that taxation appeared to bo the whip with which the Government wished to drive everybody. He complained that the Government were keeping back necessary information about the public works of the colony and condemned the constructipn of such works as the Grey-mouth-Hokitika and Thames railways when other and more remunerative works -were urgently required. Hβ referred to Sir R. Stout's speech, which was applauded by Ministers although ho differed from them in every important point of their policy. What he (Mr Rolieston) complained of in the Government was that they were making stalking horaes of the working classes but they should endeavour to bind all classes together. He held that the Opposition were trying to teach the people a different doctrine from that preached by the Government, and ho ventured to think that before the elections came ou the people would be tired of being dragged through the mire. But if he never came back to the House again he should never cease in his efforts to explain to the people the fallacies that were being practised on them. MrSANDFORD moved the adjournment of the debate. Agreed to, and the House rose at 1.25 a.m.