PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Press, Volume XVI, Issue 2158, 18 March 1870, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, March 17. The Speaker took the chair at 5 p.m. THB NOETHBBN BAILWAY.

The House then went into committee to consider the following resolutions : —" That immediate steps should be taken to procure from England the necessary rails and iron work for the construction of the bridges." To which an amendment had been moved to omit the words " from England." Mr Knight asked whether the Provincial Secretary was now disposed to give the fullest information on this subject, and he would , now take the opportunity of saying that there was no record Bince the Provincial Counoil had been in existence of any Government refusing to adjourn a debate which had been continued for seven and a-half hours. He believed, however, that the Government were not unanimous in wishing to back up the Provincial Secretary in the disgraceful eoene which had taken place last night. He trusted, however, the lesson which had been given last night would show the Government that ifc was useless to attempt to smuggle anything through the House. Mr Jollib deprecated the course taken by the hon. member. He considered that it was the duty of the Government to endeavor to back up the majority of the House as was done last night, in the attempt to carry on the business of tbe country. He regretted that k hehad not given a fuller statement at first, but he considered that he had done so as the resolutions came under consideration, except perhaps as to some minor matters of detail. He would at once deny that the Government had attempted to smuggle anything through the House.

Mr Bhown pointed out that if the members of the Government were omitted from the majority last night there would not have been a majority for pressing on the motion. Mr Wynn Williams inquired what object the Government could have in keeping back information or endeavoring to smuggle resolutions through the House.

Mr Montgomeby, whist believing that the Government had been actuated by the best intentions, must still affirm his belief that the hon. members forming the minority had not been actuated by factious motives. The mistake complained of on the part of the Government was that the Government had omitted to supply such information as hon. members required.

At the request of Mr Bbown, the Provincial Secretary Mr Jollie reiterated the statements he had formerly made as to the reasons which had induced the Government to submit to the House the course they had proposed.

Mr A. Duncan would support the course recommended by the Government, as he believed in the end it would turn out to be the most economical and advantageous for the province. He approved of the action proposed to be taken by the Government in undertaking the supervision of the work, and letting it out in a number of contracts. Then, too, with regard to the complaint that had been made that sufficient publicity had not been given to the advertisement respecting the Northern Bailway, he did not think that was founded on fact, for it was admitted that the " Lyttelton Times " was one of the best conducted journals in New Zealand, and was circulated at home and in the colonies. He considered that by advertising in the ** Press " and the " Lyttelton Times" that greater publicity had been given than if advertisements had been published in other journals. Mr Bbown contended tbat sufficient publicity had not been given to the matter so as to induce foreign capitalists to embark in the enterprise—in fact be must state that there was a strong contrast between the course adopted by the Provincial Secretary to give publicity and tbat adopted by the Otago Government. He argued that the fullest information ought to have been afforded to intending contractors instead of the meagre information tbat has been furnished.

Mr K-NNaway said that the question before

the Council was whether eineo of lest session sufficient time h»J r ? l0, »«<m, sufficient exertion need, t 0 c 2 Cla Psed. 0r systom then proposed For hi."' 7 ° Ut t!i « hardly thought that suffieiont time uS ff n jo that the guuraatee system fair trial. ""(,'.t ha? 2» Mr Jollie .Hid that no change hsd i"" made in the plan of the p ron * J, d >n except such as would probably bo foL i '?. sajry m any plan under circumstSl?*might arise. °»»ucea which Mr Johnstone enquired whether »* .' formation could be obtained by intend ln " tractors as would enable them ♦« tender ? m to ™*h , # Mr Jollie said that he had supplied _» .. information in the posaeasaon of {hJ« ! ' 3 ment. Ule «<m m .

Mr Hall said it appeared to hi ra tn . t ~ question was whether they should adoS 5° guarantee system or adopt a system of v • a bonus for the construction and the line. Now, it was known that to i" 8 great extent the guarantee B y ßtem had »** a failure in India, inasmuch as partis* 1 , in economy-their dividends being paid h,,? Government, as would be the caso■ with * who had not such guarantee. Then aa tIT bonus system-vi.., giving tt bonus , 0 ft contractor for the construction of such _V -leaving him to make up any deflect the levying of tolls. Now, j D /J y to carry out that efficiently ; t mt necessary that the line should bo determiS by tbe Council-this had not bZ 2 hitherto, and the Government, thero&wo S been unable to carry out tho bonus e4C That difficulty had, however, been™.ft the Council having now determined oa a J' ticular line, and now he thought there wm reasonable prospect of the line being earned into effect. He thought, therefore, that the best thing for the Government to do would b to offer the contract *r what they hi ia hand, and a share of the profits cf tb a ]\ nfi Mr Peacock expressed himself ia f Mor .j tbe guarantee .ystem.

Mr Johnstons said ifc appeared to faim if they adopted the plan proposed by tha Government, they would certainly not bo able to carry the railway to Kaiapoi; ifthe* did not adopt some other system of raieinj? money beyond that proposed, he did not s«a how they could construct ths Great Northern Railway, and he thought if that railway wera not made entirely he thought it would bs very little use to attempt it. He thought it would be much better if they could get hold of some rich contractor and induce bias to construct the line.

After some remarks from Mr fin, the Committee adjourned for twenty minute. On resuming, the amendment for tho omission of the words was agreed to.

Mr Jollie moved as an amendment that the word " construction of bridges" be left out with a view of inserting the words "for the construction of the line m far as Kaiapoi" The hon. member said in this resolution the Government were applying only to the line as far as Kaiapoi. Anew Council would shortly meet, and it would ba idle for the Government to take a resolution for the construction of a railway to the north, and only be able to carry it as far ao Kaiapoi.

Mr Maskbll opposed the amendment for the insertion of the works proposed by Mr Jollie.

Mr Knight said that if the Government undertook this work—a work which would cost some £28,000 more than wo had in hand —the money would have to come out of the Land Fund. He should oppose the amend* ment.

After some remarks from Mr MoHKOMSSf and Mr Wynn Williams, the "Bmrmoui Sbceetabt obtained leave to withdraw his amendment.

Mr Hawkes moved as an amendment that the words " for the construction of ths Ijfl?" be added after the word " rails." Mr Bbown deprecated the course proposed by the hon. member for Chriatchurch. H» thought it was advisable to allow the Goran* ment to procure the necessary materia?!. Mr MoNT<_o_f eby agreed with the hon. member for Rangiora, and he thought that if the Provincial Secretary would atate that it was the intention of the Government to carry out the Northern Bailway, the matte? fcrigot be left in their hands.

Mr Jqliob said that it wai, and had always been the intention of the Government, to carry out the Northern Bailway as laid out on the plans. [Hear, hear.] The amendment was carried on'ths voices, and the resolution was parsed as sjaanded. Mr Jollie moved—"That the work should be proceeded with in such contract or contracts as may be found tho most adyantsgeoM on tenders being called for." The bos. member explained that it was th@ intention of the Government to let the work ia mm contracts. . , The resolution, on being put, was earned oa the voices, and reported to the House. The resolution, on being put, waa carrwd«» the voices. Progress was then reported, sna the House resumed, when the resolutions, » amended, were adopted by the Council. bouthbkidge and leeston ■±i | J rAT ' Mr Knight asked the Provincial SaW'JJ what has been done towards nwtmg *« publio to undertake the SoutMnidge m Rolleston Bailway or Tramway. . : Mr Jollie said that the Government st W end of last session immediately too*fg * ascertain what the owners of land ta?OW which it was thought the line «f nW ■?, would take for their land,,and tbe w* Surveyor had delivered notices to> w effect all along tbe line jb«J * thought would be best. The Chief W veyo? had reported on the subject-,-gJ had proposed certain deviations on w. as originally proposed, and along »•«•*«, he had also delivered similar ™M«* J»*,, Jollie) had only received the Chief -SjJ% report the day before yesterday, other papers he begged to lay upon tt«* He really thought that the hon. *f } might have waited to see what % Government proposed to give on tbo ««l*» before he put his notice on the pap er « TAI TAPU BOAD. . . « „.«. Mr __NXGHT asked the tary what steps have been ta.ee *~ opening up a road in the Tai ' itt E"» ' a frl which £50 was voted by the Cb_- J« session ? .. .. u r .4 fccos Mr Jollie said that the subject considerably under. the attention w ■ w vernment, but certain arrangements *» . , b2 made with parties, through who* t , road was to pass, before the ro_a j~ & , opened up. He thought that it •»^j (r , of the Boad Board to negocrate &9 and when that was done the w* ■; would bring down a bill to c*nj negooiations into effect.

~ LANJ> AT LYTTELTON. ,r T/s Sed the Provincial Secretary M _ .nvaDolications have been made to 8 « Snent to lease any portions of the rech» inl£ Yjforwics applications had Mr S one for a coal depot, which Wn Wanted, and the other for putting up b - wftßrefußed oil,^^lilMlGßATlON. by leave, withdrew his reso • " That this Council is of opinion that !a{, °wion sbould be conducted by the Government "—as resolutions on the were to be moved by the Government. BAKAIA BRIDGE. , T g Williams withdrew the following rL standing in his name—" That a select appointed to consider how far ffSSpS construction .adopted by Mr White in his temporary bridge over the SI is likely to be of general utility in -TZo ths rivers of the province ; the comb f£ C conTist of Messrs Jollie, Mont- , iery, Stodholme, Kennaway, Lee, A. f fSunci, and tbe Mover. IMMIGBATTON. Mr JOUIB moved that the House resolve fa to committee of the whole to consider he following resolutions :-(l.) That having tfir- to the future requirements of the pro Scs in consequence of the increase of the amber of flax manufactories, and the probable Growth of other in<3ußtrieß, th,s Council tot opinion that efforts should be made to Lure a steady and continuous flow of poputstion into this province over a period of wars (2) bftt in default of any B eneral Jcbeme being initiated by the General Go Uonent of the colony, it is desirable to ob J- throngh the General Government a loan of an amount not exceeding £30,000 for the onreoses of immigration. (3) That this sum, together with such further sums as may be voted by thfl Provincial Council for the purm ea should be expended over a period of three years from the Ist of September next. (4) That the numbers and the classes of immigrants to be brought out should be modified from time to time as may be found desirable to meet the requirements of the province, and arrangements should be made for diffusing further information through the country districts in England and Scotland by means of an agent or agents, whose duty it sbill be to promote the selection of suitable immigrants. He eaid that he thought there eoald not be much difference of opinion with regard to tbe question that immigration was necessary. The events of the last few weeks would prove tb_t had it not been for the beautiful harvest weather with which they had been favored, half of the crops, if not more, would have been spoiled. Then, too, they bad flax manufactories springing up ground them, and many of these were not only in full work, but their number was largely increasing ; and there was another fact that he should like to call attention to, and that ms tbat flsx lands were being largely sought after with the view of erecting flax factories upon them. He thought, therefore, that they might fairly expect a very large number of persons being employed in the manufacture of fiaxj in fact, there would be no lack of employment during the winter months, as the flax industry could be stopped during the busy time of the year, and worked in the dull seaaon. He believed that the Council would agree to the first resolution. As to the second reiolution, the Government considered it posiible that some scheme of immigration might be introduced into the General Assembly, by the Colonial Government That was possible, but be hardly thought it probable, still as there was such a possibility, the Government bad guarded themselves in this resolution, by not asking for the £30,000 J if the General Government contemplated a scheme for the introduction of immigrants. He sincerely trusted, however, that the General Government would not have anything to do with a scheme of immigration He thought that the system of immigration which bad prevailed in this province was a food one, and that the immigrants brought here would compare favorably with those of any other part of the world. His chief reason for hoping that the General Government would not enter into any such scheme was tbat Canterbury and Otago were the only colonising provinces in the island—the rest of the provinces not being in a position to engage in immigration. The expense of immigration *as borne from the land funds j indeed, he believed that when the land fund was to the province, there was an implied contract that a portion of it should be spent in introducing immigrants. Now the North Island had no land fund, and Nelson and Marlborough had no jand fund; if, therefore, a general scheme of Emigration was carried out, it would be at the expense of Canterbury and Otago. He, therefore, hoped tbat the General Government. would not engage in any scheme of general immigration. The Government believed tha* &» sum of £30,000 would bring into the province as large a number of immigrants as jould supply labor. The cost to the wo'erament for each adult immigrant was *9 per head, and with £30 000 they would be able to introduce 3100 immigrants, and that they believed would be sufficient for their **Bts. The Government had thought it w&srtoaak for £30.000 extending over three jeara, rather than take a yearly vote. It was «so qaite possible that the £30,000 might not °* quite sufficient, and the Provincial Council *oald then be asked to vote an additional sum . He. believed that the Assembly was much Store likely to grant a loan for immigration than for public works, as every increase of immigrants brought an increase to the revenue; « wsß calculated that each immigrant contributed yearly to the general revenue the sum v ir * Q< * '*" a sum the province would gtt ffi £1 directly and £1 indirectly; so such.a sum as that asked for being exP«ade4 in immigration, benefits not only the P«mnee hn% the whole colony. Before he •« down he begged to lay before the House information :— The total cost of the passages of immigrantt "tooduced into the province since May, 1868 ?*> £13,411 the number of immigrants being JjJ« Qr about £15 per head ; but of this sun * w »B3 was contributed by (or for) the immi |*&nta prior to embarkation, leaving £9871 lo * tbe province to pay j thus making th< average cost on arrival a little over £11 i aead, and w h en foe p ro n_i ßßo ry notes givei °r the immigrants are paid, the ultimate cos 10 the province will be £8560, or about £910 ahead, * if, however, the amount paid for fre passages for single women is deducted th P r e*eat oost to the province for the familie Jf*^ 1 * men introduced (in all 408 adults 55 33543 or about £6 5s a head, and th

ultimate cost will be £1225, or about £3 a head.

" The scale of assistance granted by the Canterbury Provincial Government to persons sending for their friends is on bills—Married couples under forty—male, £11 6< 8d ; female, £11 6s 8d ; children under twelve years, £5 13s 4d. Single men—agricultural*laborers, £11 6s Bd.

"Cash paid in advance—married couples under forty—mnle, £8 10s; female, £8 10s ; children under twelve, £4 5s j eingle men (agricultural laborers), £8 10s. " Single females between the ages of fifteen and thirty-five, free.

" The number of immigrants introduced into the province from January, 1869 to March, 1870 was 699J statute adults, of which number 380$ were assisted and 319 free, the latter being single women The total coat of passage money being £10,402 10s, or about £15 each. The cost to the province, however, is decreased by the sum of £2907 6s 8d cash paid by immigrants prior to embarkation, by £204 2s Bd, amount collected on £340 2* Bd. the proportion covered by bills, and £14 collected out of £897 13s 4d, the proportion covered by promissory notes, making a total of £3125 9s 4d paid by immigrants in cash and on bills and notes ; and leaving £1019 13s 4d still outstanding, and which will no doubt be eventually paid. The cost, therefore, of each immigrant introduced into tbe province since January, 1869, will be, when the bills and pronmory notes are paid, about £9 a head, inclusive of those receiving free passages, or £3 17s 6d for every adult who received an assisted passage."

Mr Johnstons said that he was very glad that the Government had come down with the resolutions proposed, as it showed that they had at last awoke upon the subject. He thought however that the sum of money proposed to be borrowed should be very much larger in amount, as although the Provincial Secretary had stated that the cost of immigra

tion was only £9 a-head, yet he (Mr Johnstone), believed that it would be nearer £15 per head. He did not believe in the General Government conducting any scheme of immigration, for if that were done he felt satisfied that Canterbury and Otagro would have to piy for the whole of New Zealand. There was one subject tc which he wished to draw attention. When he was in England he found, oniuquiry at the immigration office, that there was a very great difficulty in filling the ships with proper immigrants, because of the one-third they had to pay for their passages, which was a sum twice as much as would pay their passage to America. Hi would support the resolution that an addition should be made to the sum proposed in committee.

Mr Montgomery cordially agreed with some of the resolutions, but at the same time he wished to express his opinion that the time had come when the General Govern ment should take up the matter of immi gration to the colony, because there could be no doubt that in order to carry on a system of immigration to any extent would require more funds the provinces had got. There was also this to be considered—if Canterbury got £30,000 for immigration, each of the other provinces would go to the ministry with its little want; some might want it for immigration, others for publio works. Now he decidedly objected to this. He thought it more desirable that the immigration to the colony should be borne by a loan, say of a quarter of a million—that it should be carried out by means of machinery in England, provided by tbe colony, so that a proper chiss of immigrants might be sent out. If they had a loan of say £100,000, and a gentleman of true nobility, such as colonial ministers were made of, was sent home as agent-general, he could tell the people of England that the colony of Zew Zealand was not a colony of white men struggling against savages—but that in Canterbury they had farms, one of which had in one year produced 3000 bushels of wheat —that they had numerous flocks and herds—good homesteads, and all the comforts and appliances of civilization — that in Otago progress and civilization had been making rapid strides —and that it was only a very small portion of New Zealand which was in a disturbed state. In order to supply the labor market they ought to show the people of England that there were homes here for themselves and their children after them, that the little troubles of the North Island, except as to the

trifling matter of £ s d, had no more effect upon the comfort, security, and happiness of the people here than a war in Italy would have upon the people in England. If this had been done instead of sending home two gentlemen to tell tbe people of England that we required England to protect us—gentlemen who he believed would get but little for their pains—if this were done people would come out to this place, and Canterbury would get back its old prestige of 1860. With regard to asking a loan on account of the province for immigration, he did not wish it to be said that Canterbury should be the first to initiate a system which he was sure would have a demoralising effect; but he trusted that the Government would accept and the House affirm the principle that the time had come when the Colonial Government should take up immigration. Mr J. S Williams was pleased with the remarks of his hon friend, who had just sat down. He thought that .if a general system of immigration was conducted by Board they would get a better class of immigrants, and a better admixture of immigrants of all claases. What they wanted was to induce people of all classes to come and settle here, and he thought if a person in London, by paying a small sum were to receive a warrant enabling him to go to any part of New Zealand, a great many would be attracted here. It was not labor that was so much wanted as population and settlement, and this he thought would be best effected by a scheme of immigration carried on by the General I Government.

Mr Hall said that he agreed with the hon. member who had just sat down that there bad been a great deal of panio talk on the subject of labor. It waa perfectly true that there was an insufficiency of labor during the harvest, but that was not owing entirely to the insufficiency of laborers for ordinary requirements, but to the circumstances that in one year double the amount of land had been brought under cultivation, and he believed if they got a number of laborers into tbe country to supply such a harvest, thry would not be able to employ them during the other parts of the year. Still there was no doubt that immigration was wanted, and he thought it m«_ld be much better both for the colony and the provinces if there was one general agency to afford information as to every part of the colony. Before he sat down he should emphatically protest against

that portion of the Regulations which provided for the introduction of immigrants partly by bills given by thoir relatives in tlrs colony. He considered that it was owing to this vicious system that the class of immigrants had deteriorated during the last few years—and yet to these people was entrusted the task of selecting future immigrants. He felt, however, disposed to give a general support to the resolutions. Mr Wynn Williams contended that to ask for a loan for immigration would not have a demoralising effect on the colony, even supposing other provinces did apply for a loan for public works. He differed from the scheme of issuing warrants in England enabling the immigrant to go to any part of the colony he liked, and he (_fr Williams) believed if that system prevailed, before the end of a year both Canterbury and Otago would be crying out that they were not being fairly dealt with He quite agreed with the remarks of the hon. member for the Eakaia as to the vicious system of bringing immigrants partly by bills given by their relations in this<olony. Mr Knight said he was pleased to find that the Government had brought forward these resolutiops, but he was disappointed with them inasmuch as there was no provision for an alteration in the present system. He had implored the Government session after session to make an alteration in the present system, but in vain. On the second resolution, when they came to it, he intended to propose the insertion of some words which were con-

tamed in the notice of motion which he had obtained leave to withdraw. His views on the question had been somewhat misrepresented. It had been eaid that he was op-

posed to immigration. He had been pointed out as the person whom the farmers had to thank for the scarcity of labor during the harvest, because of the resolution which he had proposed last session. Now he held in his hand a report of the speeih of the Provincial Secretary on these very resolutions, and the Provincial Secretary there said that the course pursued by him (Mr Knight) was the one which the Government hud adopted for some time. It was a mistake to think that borrowing money would keep immigrants in the province. What he objected to was that no provision was made for the introduction of immigrants at a period of the year when employment could be obtained. They poured iv their immigrants in driblets throughout the year, and they should recollect that every immigrant landed with a debt of £8 on his shoulders. They are landed in winter when work, as most hon- members were probably aware, was h»rd to get. The immigrant thus landed on a foreign shore hears of the prosperity of other provinces, of goldfields, &c, and the consequence is that he skedaddles, and the Government did not take any steps to remedy this state of things. If we were to go on with provincial immigration we must give orders to the agent at home to spend the £10,000 so as immigrants would be landed in the province in the months of November or December, when work to any amount could be got; they would get employment immediately, and would speak wel- of Canterbury ; instead of which we persisted in introducing them in driblets. Perhaps some would object to what he had said, and state that labor was not scarce. He could assert with confidence that there was not nearly sufficient labour in the province - to supply the wants of the employers. The great problem to be solved was, how we were to induce them to stop in the province during the winter months. He was certain that double the amount of labor would be employed if it could be procured for 3d or _•• per day. He held that immigration must be carried out on an entirely different principle It was useless to attempt to carry it out under the pre.ent system. The remedy was, he believed, to introduce a settlement clause into their land regulations. He had proposed this course but it was lost by two votes on a division. Such a course had been adopted by the neighboring colony of Victoria with great success ; immigrants were pouring into that colony, not only from the mother country, but also from Adelaide and other colonies, attracted by the liberal offers of the Victorian Government. The Government of this province, however, would not see it. Another means of retaining immigrants in this province would be for the Government to deal liberally with the Boad Boards. Money wa3 doled out to those Boards in a most niggardly spirit. If money was furnished more generously to the various Road Boards throughout tbe province, they would furnish employment to many men, and keep them within the province He was in hopes that the Government would have relieved the land fund of that burthen. He held that the Road Boards should have every sixpence of money raised in the district after the cost ot survey had been deducted. The laborer had, in his opinion, a perfect right to say to the Government, " You have brought mc to the other side of the world ; give mc employment, or I shall have to go to another province." With respect to borrowing money, he was doubtful whether they would be able to obtain the consent of the General Assembly to the loan. Of course this was only his opinion, but several hon. members who held seats in that body would be able to put him right if he were in error. Otago — a province whose credit deservedly stood high—applied in the last session of the General Assembly to borrow £50,000; a proposition which was thrown out, as was stated at the time, on principle. There was therefore, he thought, no chance for.Canterbury being allowed to borrow the £30,000 required. With respect to the General Government undertaking the emigration, some might object to them doing so as beneath their dignity, but he thought that those who had the real welfare of the colony at heart would not listen for a moment to this. He trusted the Government would pay some elight attention to this matter, and issue instructions to the agent to send immigrants out in large batches at a time when they would be sure of employment. He would now Bay a few words respecting immigration as it had been [hitherto conducted by the various agents of the province. [The hon. member then proceeded to review the various regimes under which the immigration to this province had been conducted for years past] From past experience agents were a failure. The immigration office of Otago in the mother country was a case in point, where, when an emigrant applied for information, he was referred to the "Handbook on New Zealand." [Laughter.] The agent who who should go home under the system of General Government immigration onght to be a man of position and influence not only in the colony, but kiao in England, and who would act as an ambassador between the colony and the mother country; when instead of

Mr A being despatched upon a mission costing the colony some thousands of pounds, and Mr B. and Mr C. on other separate missions, costing several thousands more, they would have one mnn performing these functions thereby saving the country an enormous sum of money. Of course th»»re would be sub agents under the Agent-General—men who had worked their way up from the ranks,who had acquired wealth and property in the colony. Let them send John Smith the Fnglishman from Leeston, and Wm. Boag, the Scotchman, from Fendaltown ; and Philip Tisch, the German, from the Styx. He made the assertion with the assurance that it could not be controverted, that New Zealand was becoming less known year by year at home, and it was their duty to bring tha province under the notice of the population of England. The hon. member was addressing the House when Mr Kennaway moved that tho House be counted, which was done, and the Speaker having declared no quorum the House adjourned at 11 25 to noon this day.