CONSTRUCTION OF COUNCIL.

Press, Volume XII, Issue 1542, 16 October 1867, Page 2

CONSTRUCTION OF COUNCIL.

A resolution was brought forward i n ~, House of Representor vcm on Sent,/ I ho mission to inquire into this matter •— Mr McNeil snid it was to h» that the question he was about to ?£**}** ward had been so long deferred T? 8 , ' been several instances already of J 0 "7n !? d public through the want of foresight in ,1 matter, and there probably would be agS deal more before the construction of J-i ' was completed. He might mention (t/T the proposed Otago railway it w . ia v- r that between £12,000 and £14 000 h„i f e<i paid for tho land, and for the railway JlJ **" Inveroargill and Winton l'-1000 hadk paid for the land required; whiU f , U Auckland and Drury Kailway, about « ' 8 five miles in length, including « £35,000 had been paid for land ° T, • ch - that he thought it important tit 7° f steps should be taken which mieht i the effect of cheapening railways j n r f Te They all hoped to sco the railway BvntJ! ' tended, and he believed, if the House a !" H u' the appointment of a commission, Bf?n tT ■, ? might be done in the way of reseS, j for future trunk lines. It might be dfffi in some cases to s.iy whero a line was tn but there might be considerable latitul" allowed in reserving lands, without my .v lute waste. They might be leased, and if tound afterwards desirable to alter the '" those lands might be a set-off agauwt Zi that might have to bo purchased for theopTu tion. It, was hardly necessary for him to»« anything as to the importance of tho settle ment of the question of gauge. The MM n« and the inconvenience arising f rom a break of gauge was very great It had been found ou Ihe Great Western Kail way, notwithstanding the fact that every mechanical appliance had been brought to hsar, tho loss ffa3 something very great, and ultimately they had to resort to laying 'extra lines to permit the rolling stock of the narrow following after the rolling stock of tho wider gaugo. On tl'o score of expense, no doubt, there might b e some objection, but still ho thought that that expense might be lessened considerably by employing the leading provincial engineers of the country, who plight undertake tho duty to a certain extent without it being ncceaaarj to employ men solely for that purpose who had no other salary. It would be, so to speak, an interproviucial arrangement, and one' in which all provincial engineers would naturally bo interested. He would more the motion standing in his name.

Mr Moohiiousk seconded the motion. Motion made, and question proposed— " That a respectful address be presented to his Excellency tho Governor, requesting him to be pleased to issue a commission to inquire into the subject of railway communication throughout the colony, and more especially to determine which are the most advantageous lines for trunk railways, with a view to the reservation from sale of a portion of the unsold Crown lands adjacent to such Hues < and also to inquire whether, in all Acts hereafter to bo passed by the Legislature for tho construction of railways, provision ought not to be made for securing one uniform gauge throughout the colony, and determine what that gauge should be."—(Mr McNeil) Mr Cam/eton considered the matter of rery undeniable importance, and was exowdinglj glad the hon. member had brought that motion. Had he not seen the motion on the notice paper he should, under Btaadiaj Order No. 67 of the Orders relatihf to private Bill*, have felt it his duty, on the third reading of the Otago Southern tet Railway Bill, to have brought the qw&ab. before the House. Tho question had reived careful consideration in tho Privafe Bills Office. There were already two gauges in; tho Middlo Island, and there might be clliird, for on asking tho engineer the gauge of that particular railway he replied that tho gauge had not yet been decided upon. In fact ili was in his mind a serious objection to the Bill itself, but there being no prdviaion in law he did not feel justified in insisting upon the gauge being immediately settled; but ho had immediately resolved to bring .tho whole matter under the consideration of tho House, in order that it might taka steps regarding it. He trusted the Government would take the matter into consideration this session.

Mr Stafpobd was' glad attention had beon called to the question. The Legislature was to blame in allowing the question to get into that position. In 1562 a Railway Bill was broaghs before tho House and as a private member he took leave to suggest that it was desirable there should be a determination thenconißto as to what should be the gauge in each ishuid. No action had been taken then or since, and he was afraid even now it would be inconvenient, because at the present moment tkera were two lines of railway, several miles of which were completed on different gauges. The line from Lyttelton to Selwyn had a gang* of sft. 3in., and on the lino from Invorcargill to the Bluff the gauge was 4ft. Biin., and they were twenty-three miles to twenty-seven niiles long respectively. When it was determined what the uniform gauge should be, thew would arise the question which lino shonld be altered Perhaps both might be altered, that they might got the advantage of the best gauge. There was doubt whether action could be taken this'-session on. the question, which was a reason for P^ o, 5 u f the Otago Southern Trunk Raiimj Bu»----to be passed, as, unless legislation on tho subject took place this session, it would w unfair to hold back that Bill when way Bills had been allowed to pass. Ei&iif 1 understand the nature of the coomW' 8 " the hon. gentleman would propose. W** missions could not act without some although the expense might be reduce*. b 7 placing those persons in the. campM® who were already drawing salaries, and who were competent to give an opinio" oB subject. , Mr G. Gbaham suggested that the *o™ "and canals" should be inserted after W words " trunk railways." The sum or»o,ww would connect the Waikato with Pi«° *>> means of a canal, by which all tho P could be conveyed into Auckland, and o? forty miles of road there might be a t»niw»7 laid to New Plymouth, and so connect it»"» the Waikato. The expense of a cominmicn might be found too great in the pwW* financial Btate'of the country, but during ttw recess the Superintendents of provinces n»g»* collect information on the subject, md ne» session a commissioner might bo sppoiuup w look into their suggestions. . Mr Macandbevv thought it would bo mt better to deal with the matter this session, « there were plenty of materials on the spot™ enable them to arrive at a conclusion witho o " appointing a commission. It would be jncoa* venient to put, the question off till ncxt.ees.non. It was very desirable that the uniform g»«*«« whatever ft may be, should be fixed before we work of the Otago Southern Trunk Batiwav was proceeded with, 'ihat would be one oi the main lines of the colony, and ho had every reason to believe that tho contract would ds entered into aud the work commenced belorc the next session of the General Assembly; » was therefore highly important that the promoters of that railway Bhould know what was to be the fixed gauge for the colony. t . Mr Wood thought this a proper tune w settle the question us to the gauge of W w» The appointment of a commission would tw* clow process, and one attended with muen expense, and probably a select committee wow meet tho view of tho hon. mover ot }'*. motion. Superintendents of provinces ffiigos be requested each to appoint one duly q"* * fiod person to decide not only as to the wline to be taken, but also to select sitaatw» where tho elevation of tho laud suitable to connect one province witheaotfl

"*tv He should, support the motion, ra tiier a select committee were ap- :_ pHT> Y.C., would point out that iN or tjre ]y impossible that in a new j { was . hi but an ac tual survey could country ai J h Bhou ](j be the ultimate det*r (D,ne for a tru nk line through the islands. necessary, before this could be Jtwoulu <- 9( , V e r al lines should be surat«rtm e ne d a ' a gre;it numbe r of levels taken, rejea 8 ° gec (ions should be put one sad j be ofc her. The settlement of new &■* the increase of population, and the 8 . , noW . towns would always affect - fc»«* tl0 ° t j 0n of the direction of trunk & appointment of a commission or ineS " -tt»e would do much good, as it would ?"° a»nti on to tae matter, and keep * ra5T neriftendents, engineers, and surTeyorj being done W is the object in -new, and draw the *° *fon of the leading settlers in the country * ! ts to the exploration of the best lines BtrlC Id be well if a committee were appoiuted U flSßion to consider the subject of railway * anication, and a chairman appointed so keep up a knowledge of the circum- * Ota and general bearing of evidence ad'tiftom time to time, as also with a view «nir the gang o uniform in different lines Si as possible. He would support tho • B M°EAii did not think that the question of v reneral direction of trunk lines through- % e country could be well disposed of by sdect committee, and the reservation of * blands as would'be eventually required ! the construction of those lines. That subvrf conW only be dealt with properly by a and that commission could not f\ with it vei 7 satisfactorily without the of a very great deal of time and T In many cases it would be difficult to Sn exactly the best line trunk railways Told take. In other cases comparatively little - ense would be incurred. On this occasion, the same course might be adopted as .taken in Canterbury, where they reserved VLa of land, say one mile in width, to give time for °uch inquire to be made as would Lie the exact position of the line. That ould obviate a vexatious source of expense in the shape of compensa' ion for taking private '' ronerty. S 0 di( * not Delieve the q aeßtion of 2e would be dealt with so satisfactorily by r select committee as by a commission ; but Lttna to the fact mentioned by the hon. nonbn for Clutha that the Otago Southern (SnVimk Krilway in all P robabllit y would be contracted for, and that the Government might % anxious to proceed with the construction of it beforo the next session of the Assembly, they should make an attempt st settling the question of gauge. The committee might find that more information fas required to enable them to say what was, titer all, the beßt gauge ; but he did see any Vltuon why they should not make the attempt. Swing taken a considerable amount of inter«tn the question of railways in his own nwriace, he was very strongly impressed with (be great advantage of a uniform gauge .throughout the colony, and the disadvantage *that would bo the result if they did not avail themselves of the present opportunity of teeuring uniformity of gauge. Future generations would lay serious blame on their 'shoulders if they did not take some action in the matter. He would cordially support tho proposition of the hon. member for Wallace. He hai bis own opinion as to the best gauge, but he would not go into that question. Mr J. C. Richmond had great doubts whether the question could be settled in the way the hon. member desired. There was no doubt the object in view was very desirable if it could be accomplished, and any expense incurred would be abundantly compensated. sFo one had yet reduced his idea of the system to be adopted sufficiently low to be wi&in the means and to the advantage of the. colony, and if the result of the commission >ihould be to introduce modesty into our plans for the future, a committee would no doubt Obtain a great deal of information. He would call the attention of tho House particularly to the course being pursued in tho neighbouring #Kiy of Queensland, where many miles of fldway had been constructed on a very much analler gauge than had been used for locomotives up to the last few years. Unless gome such system were adopted, a large number of the links in a system that should extend from North to South would be missing. A large gauge would be suitable for level countries, but would be impracticable in the more rugged parts of the colony. If any uniform gauge were adopted it must be a small one. He believed that railways, on however small a scale, would be ample for the next twenty years. The French branch lines were constructed on a very small gauge, and had to do a traffic far larger than any New Zealand line would have to meet for a long time to come.

Mr Tbavebs said there appeared to be only two directions by which a line could be constructed from Nekon to Canterbury—one by the coast via the Wairau, and the other via Clarence. It was well known that nine-tenths of the land lying along these lines was private property. It would be therefore impossible to make any reserve in that case, and arrangements would have to be made with individuals ia respect to the land. Looking to the character of the North Island, lines for railway traffic must be very limited, and there would perhaps be a great difficulty in reserving tracts flf country for railway purposes. A great deal . of valuable information could be obtained, and jmch limits of deviation chosen as would aid in the selection at a future time of the particular line. He had considerable doubt whether any uniformity of gauge ;?ould be" adopted. Men of capital might find themselves embarrassed by it, and be prevented embarking their capital in undertakings of the kind in New Zealand. The fiuge at Lyttelton did not appear excessive, ait was the great mouth through which the Wiorfor miles was fed. The inquiry, he Wht mighj; be made exceedingly useful. *' Mt Br/BNS moved the following amendfetot:—"To leave out all the words of the Ui sentence of the motion, with a view to aabstituting the following :—' That a select .committee'be appointed to consider the necessity of adopting one uniform gauge throughout the Middle Island ; the committee to consist of-ifessrs McNeil, Macandrew, Moorhouse, Seaphy, Hall, Tanored, Curtis. Taylor, and *ta mover, with power to call for persons, ■japera, and reports ; three to form a quorum, and to report on the 21st instant.' " He coopered that some inquiry of the kind was very necessary. What he wanted was speedy action. He thought a committee could get to »ork more quickly. A great deal of information eauld be got at that moment in Wellington- There were a good many engineers from Afferent parte of the colony at present in Wellington. 'Mr Bunny seconded the amendment. What was wanted was speedy action. There *as no subject more important than railway communication through the colony. The labour of such a committee would be very

valuable. A select committee would be of Ktfle or no expense. He wa3 glad that most < important subject had been brought before &6 House. He was sure the hon. member 6r Wallace deserved the thanks of the House »* bringing its attention to the subject. I s£? Ivbtjjolds did not see there would be

Kiy object gained by having a commission. It Was competent for every Superintendent to save a line surveyed in his province, and to *Ppoint reserves for railway purposes. The Governor had power to re-assign any lands for such purposes. There were other in•jknees where most of the land had been sold ■foe latter part of the motion referred to the fangs that should be in each island. The fittge need not be the same in both, but it Would be the same in each. Major Heaphy, V.C., could not agree with 'N' Con. member for Dunedin. He could not & how it was possible for a committee to do %thing towards determining the direction of trunk lines. They might perhaps take yfwence of uniformity of gauge, . but beyond they could do very little.' As to the |°ffipetency of Superintendents to reserve •*f"Wt it should he remembered that the points « connexion and continuation of the hounda■F*of provinces would have to be determined D Joaeriadividualg,

Mr Bakjent thought the committee would have very great difficulty in coming to anything like a conclusion that would be of any great value. -,

The Speaeeb said the question had assumed rather a peculiar complexion in respect to the matter of • order. Within the terms of one motion were included at one and the same time the appointment of a commission and a committee. The motion of the hon. member for Caversham not strictly regular. He sought to appoint a committee to make inquiry, without having given any previous notice. The best course would be to negative the last sentence. The hon. gentleman could then give notice in the usual manner for his committee.

Mr 'BtjKl.-s thought it would be a simple VE-nv- if the hon. member for "Wallace would withdraw Iw motion, and allow tlio motion for the committee to be made next day. The one mode was urgent. Mc thought the more speedily inquiry was made the more useful would be it* result.

Mr McNeil, said he was quite in the hands of the House. It was a subject of importance to which he thought the attention of the House should be called. His wish was also to have the matter Battled iv the speediest manner. If it were the opinion that he should withdraw the motion with the view of adopting a quicker mode of proceeding, he would adopt that course. He could not help thinking that a committee would have to encounter greater greater difficulty, or that the difficulties would be greater for a committee to deal with than would be the case with a commission. He was entirely in the hands of the House.

The Speaker did not think there was any conflict between the first part of the motion and the amendment. The hon. member for Caversham had only to move that the last sentence of the motion be left out.

Mr McNeil said that it seemed to him that in dealing with the question of gauge they were beginning at the wrong end of the subject. The gauge depended so much upon the directions of the grand trunk lines of the colony, and those directions depended upon Other considerations —considerations which the commission would have to inquire into as a preliminary to the whole subject. It was purely a question of money, and not of convenience and luxury. Systems had been initiated in several provinces of the colony, and there was no doubt that for the purpose of furnishing means of communication between the settled districts and existing ports, as well as for the accommodation of existing populations, these systems might be well adapted to answer the purpose for which they were intended. Although the provincial systems might be very complete in themselves, he feared that when they were extended to the adjoining provinces, and through communication was established, that many of the lim s would be found to be superfluous, and the result would be a loss of money. The question arose, what was the object of railways ? What ought they to look for in the construction of railways ? Were they merely to supply the wants of existing populations, or for the purpose of developing those resources which were known to exist in all parts of the colony, and to open up large tracts of country which might otherwise remain unexplored for years ? He believed it was well known that the West Coast of New Zealand was rich in mineral wealth, and one might easily imagine that if those resources could be developed, "and a mining population once settled there, a market would be afforded to the residents on the East Coast. That was his view of the question, and it appeared to have presented itself to the committee while they were engaged upon the consideration of the matter. Motion agreed to.