KEEN INTEREST.

Auckland Star, Volume LXV, Issue 126, 30 May 1934, Page 8

KEEN INTEREST.

MANY QUESTIONS.

DETECTIVE'S MEMORY. PRECISE DETAILS SOUGHT. LONG CROSS-EXAMINATION". In anticipation of defence counsel s cross-examination of Detective T. W.

Allsopp, crowds of men and women formed separate queues outside the Supreme Court from nine o'clock onwards this morning. Again women rushed up the stairs to the gallery in an effort to obtain front seats and so get a glimpse of Bayly as he sat in a corner of the dock. Men in the downstairs public part of the court were packed hard against the rail, while many of both sexes again waited outside most of the morning. When the court rose just before five o'clock last evening, Detective Allsopp had been in the box two full days, with the exception of half an hour. The cross-examination of the detective was begun by Mr. Northcroft in the last few. minutes of yesterday's sittings and elaborate cross-examination came with the opening of the court this morning.

Bayly faces the following counts: — At Ruawaro, on or about October 15 last, he did murder Christoble Lakey; " And further, at Ruawaro, on or about the same date, he did murder Samuel Pender Lakey.

Mr. Justice Herdman is on the Bench. The Crown case is being handled by Mr. V. R. Meredith and Mr. F. McCarthy, and Bayly is defended by Mr. E. H. Northcroft and. Mr. L. P. Leary, instructed by Mr. R. B. Lusk.

The croes-examination was followed ■with close interest by Bayly himself. He frequently leaned forward in the dock to catch the replies of the detective. At the morning adjournment, he had a brief word with his counsel and went below with his depositions and his notebook, smiling. Much of Bone Not Human. With only a few minutes before the Court adjourned last evening, Mr. Northcroft cross-examined Detective Allsopp on several points. Mr. Northcroft: Speaking generally, Detective Allsopp, of the pieces of bone produced, a Tery great deal has not been identified by the experts as being human bone? —Yes, that is so. Taking the opinions formed by experts, many of those have proved to be wrong, have they not? Take exhibit 155, the container of specimens found outside the cow shed?— Yes.

Now look at the box containing exhibit 156. I suggest that what is within is a piece of burnt bone and a piece of stone?—l cannot say. I understand an expert las so described it?— Yes, there are three pieces in the • box.

Do you not know that what you at first thought to be burnt bone has been pronounced by an expert to be stone? —No. You speak of burnt pieces of bon<?, nails and a chip of wood thought to have blood on it. Do you know that an expert has said' there is no blood on the " piece of wood? —It is quite possible. Do you not know that?—No, I do not. We will take the palmernap trousers. On those you found buttons similar to those found in various places about Bayly's?—Yes, burnt buttons in various parts of the orchard. Mr. Northcroft then showed witness a pair of Bayly's denims and a pair which liad_ come from Lakey's house. He asked witness to look at the buttons on both pairs, which lie said were both metal and had the letters "Acme" and three stars on them. Detective Allsopp said the markings were the same on the buttons, but the eolour was different. Mr. Northcroft: Yes, but the buttons found have been through a fire. Search of Swamp. Ton have told us that the swamp near Bayly's house had been dug over? —Yes, that is so. Has anything been found in that iwamp of which you have not told us ? —Not to my knowledge. You have told us that the swamp to the north of Bayly's house was also dug over. Was anything found there ?; Not that has been reported to me. We can take it that if anything had been found it would have been brought to your attention?— Yes. After the examination of the two bullets found in Bayly's orchard, Detective s Allsopp said he could not say whether the inner tube of the Winchester rifle found in the swamp ■was rifled. Ho did not know -whether Bayly's Spandau, rifle was rifled ■ or _ not. Ho could not' answer the qvos■""ica whether the bullets, produced, hai

been fired from a rifle with rifling in the barrel. That was a matter for an expert.

Record of Findings.

After referring Detective Allsopp to an aerial photograph of Bayly's house ancl orchard, Mr. Northcroft asked whether each envelope in which exhibits

1 were placed contained a separate finding I ; Detective Allsopp: Each envelope coni tained the findings during the day— ! findings in various parts. Sometimes the finds would be larger than other days and there would be different enI velopes and containers. I Did the containers at any time hold the findings of more than one day?— | Yes, towards the end. As things were found was a record made of the precise position? —In connection with the tooth—yes. Was a record made generally ? —I think I have explained — Have you made a record of where the things were found—everything, I mean? —That was impossible. Have you made <: record of where any particular thing was found?— Yes, the tooth found on December 22. Can you give us a list of the things you found and the place you found "them?— Yes. The tooth found on December 22 was embedded in the roots of the grass just out oil the right of the second fruit tree in the second row at I the bottom of the garden looking from Bayly's house. | Now, we will continue the list. What else have you recorded?—l think I have explained — I Mr. Northcroft: Mr. Allsopp, you don't need to become aggressive— His Honor: I do not think Detective Allsopp is aggressive. Mr. Northcroft: Well. sir. liis reply

implied that my question was an unnecessary one. Detective Allsopp then waited for the next question. Holding a photograph up to the jury the detective pointed to spots on the photo where articles had been found. He said that on December 18, three or four yards from the fence round the orchard, he saw Constable Mills recover from the grass what appeared to be a burnt joint or knuckle-bone. You have said the bone was' trodden into the roots of the grass?— Yes. Was it deliberately trodden in? —I can't say that. The grass was well trodden down.' Further minute details of various findings, the dates on which they were recovered, and the exhibit number wero next given by Detective Allsopp, who marked in red ink on the photograph where particular articles had been found. He read from his notebook the exact position in which various things were found. After counsel had asked further questions, his Honor inquired if he desired to know where the watch was found. Mr. Northcroft: I probably will later, sir. So far we have only had the general locality of the various finds. What I'really desire to know with some precision is what was found and where it was found. His Honor: Would it not be better for vou to ask him about the particular articles ? Mr. Northcroft: I don't know what they all were, sir. Detective Allsopp alone knows that. Detective Allsopp continued to mark in red ink on the enlarged photograph, positions of the articles found. He pointed out where the drum was found in the orchard. "All the bone, the teeth and other things were found near this spot," he said. Mr. Northcroft: Did you find anything to the right of the old digging down to the extreme right hand fence of the orchard? —No, nothing. The findings were all in the locality of the left hand side of the orchard? — Yes, near where we found the drum. What was the area in which all material was found, excepting the small quantities in another part? —About COft by 60ft.

"Not for You to Dictate."

.. Mr. Northcroft: We will now go to the garden— Detective Allsopp: Would it not be better to deal with what was found on December 4 — Mr. Northcroft: Mr. Allsopp, it is my privilege to ask you questions and not for you to dictate to me the form of my question. You do not know my reason for asking these questions. Questioned about the operations in the garden and the method, witness said the soil was sieved after charcoal was found. Can you tell us the location of different exhibits in the garden? —Yes, approximately. What was the total length of that strip I—About 30ft. Detective Allsopp then gave in detail the position of articles found in the garden, and said all were found within an area of 10 square feet. Mr. Northcroft: Where was the drum found?— About half way along the lower edge of the dug portion of the orchard. There is a patch of dried grass in the pig paddock. Was that area cut?— No, it was searched. Referring the detective to an aerial -photograph of the cowshed and surrounding paddocks, counsel asked Jiim what exhibits came from tha standinglyard. These witness

At 11.25, when the morning adjournment was taken, Mr. Nortlicroft* was still questioning Detective Allsopp concerning the exhibits found- on Bayly's property. On what day was material taken from the concrete behind the cowbails? —On November 10. I saw Detective Findlay take it. He drew my attention to a stain on the concrete. Are you in a position to tell us where we can find that material? —Detectivc Findlay will tell you. You cannot tell us thenMr. Meredith: If my friend wants these exhibits I can give them. Detective Allsopp cannot be expected to keep the numbers of so many exhibits in his head. Mr. Northcroft: My friend cannot give evidence. His Honor: Mr. Northcroft wishes to know if the particular exhibits are on the table — Detective Allsopp: I can find them sir. if I have a look at the exhibits on the table.

Witness then left the box and pointed out four exhibits on the (able, comprising scrapings from the lloor of Bayly's cowshed.

Mr. Northcroft: In addition to the four exhibits, were any further exhibits taken from the cowshed ?—Yes, on December 7 and 13 I took possession of some unburnt bones.

Did you cut grass on the upper side of the separator room ?—Yes.

Well, when did you find the exhibits there?—l don't want generalities.—On December 8 I found in the soil what appeared to be burnt bone.

How many pieces of concrete did you see 011 December 7 ?—About 30 pieces.

Plates on Lakey's Table,

Now, I want you to take your mind to the first visit you made to Lakey's house. You said you found, amongst other things, three clean dinner plates of large size?— Yes.

Under a small table you found two plates. What size were they?— They were clean, and they looked "like soup plates.

Were there any plates on the kitchen table?— Yes, two. They looked like] bread and butter plates.* Did yon not see any pudding plates? —Those were the two" I said i thought were soup plates. Were the plates on the table under the telephone?— Yes. So now wo have on the table three large meat plates, two soup or pudding plates, and two smaller piates. Were they all clean?— Yes. There was also an egg. His Honor: What was the place like when you first went in?— Clean and tidy, sir. Concerning the sledge niatks, did you have a tape measure with you at the time you inspected them?— Yes. Well, did you measure the distance between the nearest point of the sledge runners to the fence?—Xo, I only measured the sledge runners. The distance between the is ledge and the fence was approximately Oft from the fence. Finding of the Guns. On October 30, the day on which the guns were found in the swamp, you saw Bayly and went up to him, I think? —I heard his car approaching, and I went up to meet him and told him some guns had been found and asked him to come and see them. Did he make some mention of you being muddy?— No. Did you make a record of the conversation as you walked down to the swamp?— There was no conversation to record. Bayly did not say a word on the way to where the guns were in the swamp. When you took him down to the swamp, you have tojd us lie looked surprised?— Yes, it was when he saw the two constables in the swamp. Did you ask him how the gun parts came to be there?—l may have asked him that. Is it on your record of the conversation?— Yes. He did not know who they belonged to or how they came to be in the swamp. Well, your's is not a verbatim report of the conversation?—lt is practically all here. "Practically" may not bo good enough. Is it a complete record?—l think so. Did he volunteer the information spontaneously or is that a group of questions ? —He said he did not know how the guns got there. You have not got a record of the conversation, but merely an abbreviated note ?—Yes, sir.

Was it then or later that he told you that that was the only swamp searched? —No, later, when he galloped down on his horse.

Do you know from where he came galloping on the horse?—l saw him come from the direction of his house, but he disappeared from my view for a short distance. Where did you first see him on horseback?—On his road just past the tool and car shed. How long after that was it that you saw him again?— About three or four minutes. Is that the longest it could have been? Could it have been seven or eight minutes? —No, about three or four minutes.

He asked you about another swamp? He jumped off »and told me he wanted to make a statement. He said, "Who told you the guns were here? This is the only swamp von have searched today." that occurred after he galloped down to you?— Yes. Mrs. Bayly Questioned. Did you ever. get a statement from Mks. Bayly?—Yes. In conversation with Mrs. Bayly did you ask her if she ever did any milking?— Yes, she said she never took any part in milking. Was that the day Detective Findlay was with you? —No. Detective Allsopp then said that Detective Findlay might have been present at an interview with Mrs. Bayly. Did Findlay press Mrs. Bayly oil the "oint?-—That is not true. We believed her. Did you look at her hands? —No. From what I had seen of her hands I should say she did no milking.

When you spoke to Bayly about the lower part of the petrol drum found at the well bore, he told you he had used it to heat a piece of iron?— Yes. What day was. that? —On November 2ft, the first time I had any conversation about it.

Did he show you any iron?— Yes, he searched around and found an old cart axle.

Did it show any signs of being heated ?—Yes.

Did you show that to Furniss and ask liim if he had ever seen that piece of iron being heated? —No. Furniss gave mo the information about the piece of drum at the well bore. Nothing was said about heating the iron. Were you present when most of the bite and pieces at the tool shed were found? —Yes, when the bark part of a watch and parts of a lighter were found. And these things were found in various receptacles ? —Yes. Were other things in these receptacles? —Yea, various tilings. In the locality where you found the sheets of corrugated iron there were other things?— Yes, other sheets of iron. Both sheets shown as exhibits were fo\md in different places but close together the back of the car shed. The Court adjourned for lunch.