Mr Ormond's Charge Against Sir George Grey.

Auckland Star, Volume VIII, Issue 2336, 11 September 1877, Page 2

Mr Ormond's Charge Against Sir George Grey.

[PRESS AGENCY.]

Yesterday afternoon the debate Avas resumed on Mr Rees's motion, to inquire into the Hawke's Bay land transactions. Sir George Grey gave notice of motion " That inthe event of the motion for the appointment of a Hawke's Bay Land Transactions' Committee being agreed to, the committee be instructed to inquire into the allegations against Sir George Grey with respect to partnership in a proposed association for the purchase of lands in the Taupo district." Mr Cox made a personal explanation. In 1867, Sir George Grey first urged him to come North to invest in land. During the session of IS6B, tjie Hon. Henry Russell and himself had several interviews with Sir George Grey in reference to leasing 250,000 acres south of Taupo. At the first interview they told Sir G. Grey fully their plans. At the second interview, a few days after, Sir G. Grey asked, would it interfere witli their plane if he joined i» the venture 1 They said they had no objection. Plans were fully discussed, and Sir G. Grey urged that due provision must be made for the native owners. At the third interview, a few days after, Sir G. Grey asked to be allowed to withdraw from the matter, as ke did not wish to give his enemies any opportunity of accusing him of any improper conduct. After this, the Hon." Henry Russell and himself went ou wifli the negotiations, and Sir George Grey furnished him with letters to native

owners. Sir G. Grey had no further connection with the matter. He had never entertained any idea of Sir G. Grey being corruptly connected with the transaction. Any such idea was an entire misiake. Sir G. Grey never knew who the members of the proposed company wore. The project was for various reasons abandoned. At the end of ISO'S, when he heaud Sir G. Grey talking about the impropriety of any man holding above 50,000 acres of land, he thought him inconsistent. He mentioned the fact to several members. Tbe wholp of the letters he had obtained from Mr Locke referred to this transaction, with one slight exception. He had given Mr Ormond permission to use them with Mr Locke's consent, but had he been consulted he would

have objected to letters being ÜBed in the way they were; but such charges as had been made against Mr Ormond were calculated to make a man's tongue run away with his reason. Mr Macfarlane thought the Supreme Court the proper tribunal to inquire into the points raised ; he therefore moved the previous question. j Mr Hursthouse 'said he had heard from , Mr Cox last session what he had now | stated. j 1 Mr Stout expressed regret that Mr Or- j mond had not withdrawn his accusations, which were completely contradicted by Mr ■ Cox. " [ Mr Ormond considered all he had said ) ! fully confirmed by Mr Cox. He had been j blamed for his bitter speech but he had suffered frequent and gross provocation, and nothing he said was so bad as what Sir George Grey and Mr Rees had constantly said. He felt bound to reply and retort to the constant repetition of accusations which had killed Sir Donald McLean. He objected to the appointment of a committee to go behind the Supreme Court, but he would like to see a commission. Mr Bunny urged the production of the letters, as Mr Cox's statement failed to bear outthcinipressionarising from Mr Ormond's speech. Mr Carrington agreed with Mr Bunny.

Mr Barff defended Mr Rees, and condemned the intemperate tone of the debate. Mr Lusk expressed regret at Mr Ormond's not withdrawing the statements proved to be unfounded, He supported the appointment of the committee. Mr Bowen justified Mr Ormond's speech by the gross provocation the Government and himself had received, The House should not interfere with cases pending before a Court of Law. Mr Hodgkinson thought the country would believe the charges true if Government stifled inquiry. Mr Woolcock thought the charges must be inquired into, but not by committee. Mr Montgomery thought Mr Cox's statement completely exonerated Sir G. Grey, and that no previous provocation justified Mr Ormond's speech • made deliberately in cold blood. The debate was interrupted by the dinner hour.

FROM OCR SPECIAL REPORTER.]

When the House resumed at half-past seven Sir George Grey rose to reply. He said that when he had arbitrary power it was not proper for him to engage in land transactions, but when responsible Government existed it was not improper. The proposal of the natives was to lease for a period of 21 years, and application was first made to him by the natives. If the proposal had been carried out there would now lie no shelter afforded to murderers in the interior. He desired to see Europeans placed there as run-holders. He would as soon hold laud under the natives as landlords as under Europeans, and believed in some respects he would receive more fair-play. As to any conversations which took place ten years ago, lie could not pretend to recollect details, but, at the same time he could recollect circumstances. Yet if someone mentioned some particular circumstance, he might not recollect it, but other circumstances lie could not fail t& recollect. If, for example, someone had said he drank spirits and water on the occasion, he would say that was incorrect, because he had made it a rule never to drink spirits and water in his life. So it was in reference to the statement that he had been a partner in the transaction. He had understood Mr Cox to say last night that he had not understood him (Sir George Grey) to be a partner, but he had under consideration the question of becoming a partner. Mr Cox (who was sitting close to Sir ('eorge Grey with his hand up to his ear) : " Eh ?" Sir George Grey repeated the statement. The real meaning conveyed to his mind by Mr Cox's statement Avas that he (Sir George Grey) had under consideration for several days the propriety of his becoming a partner. He would say that when such accusations were made against a man rapidly advancing in old age—that he had demanded a bribe for assisting in the acquisition of certain land—that was an accusation gravely affecting his character. He believed now that justice could not be done unless au inquiry was held, and all the letters were published. He presumed his hon. friend, the member for Waipa, would have no objection. [Mr Cox: "No, not I."] He Avas informed that the only part of the letters which referred to him was a statement to the cllect that for State reasons he declined to have anything to do with the proposed Company, and that perhaps sonic other monied man would come in. Perhaps they wanted him as a monied man to come in. His character as a member of the House was public property ; therefore the letters should be published, as they would vindicate him from the aspersions upon his character. He thought his hon. friend (shouting in Mr Cox's car) had said he was one of the most inconsistent men lie had ever knoAvn —[Mr Cox nodded his head, affirmatively and smiled].—Sir George C_s-«y : The object of the proposed plan was to' prevent natives from selling the land in perpetuity. In the Company, as formed, there were fifteen persons. The Whitaker Company consisted of five ultimately. He did not think that a lease of 200,000 acres (which was the area contemplated, according to Mr . Russell) in a place where no one was likely to require land, was excessive for five persons. MR REES AND MR ORMOND. Last night Mr Rees chaffed Mr Ormond, declaring that when he attacked Mr

Sheehan he caught a Tartar. The charge of bankruptcy he declared to be untrue. Having met a number of bills for which he was not morally, though legally responsible, he was urged by political enemies to a composition with his creditors. He had since been gradually paying off, and in a year or two would have paid all. The member for Waipa had shewn that the letters were wri^en to Sir George Grey after he had declined to join tbe proposed Company. With reference to the challenge made by Mr Ormosd to resign and contest Clive with hira, he now challenged Mr Ormond to come to Auckland and meet him at City East; not at Clive, where Ormond has his dogs to bark at people's heels. The very fact that Ministers resisted the appointment of a committee shewed they had something suspicious to eonCeal. The public would think se, and would demand inqury. The House divided on the me _io_i that the question be now put. The Speaker put the question three times, then declared the " ayes" have it. The " noes" called for a division. There was a rush from Bellamy's, and the " lobbies. A good deal of bustle and interest was observable. The whips in running out nearly upset unfortunate members rushing in. The Spealser gave his decision for the "noes," on the voice. The House divided; noes 31 ; ayes 34. Mr Stout gave notice of the same motion fer Thursday. THE DIVISdON.

The House divided last night on the question " That the question be new put," with the following result :— Ayes. Thirty-four: Baigent, Rarff, Basting. J. C. Brown, J. E. Brown, DeLatour, Dignan, Fisher, Gisborne, Grey, Hamlin, , Hislop, Hodgkin_.on, Lusk, IVraeaudrcw, Montgomery, Nahe Oroke, Pyko, Rees, Sedton, Sheehau, Stout, SAvanson, Tairoa, Takamoama, Thomson. Tole, Travers, Wakefield, Wallis, Williams, W. Wood. Noes : forty-one : Atkicson, Ballance, Bryce, Burns, Beetham, Bowen, Brandon, Curtis. Douglas, Fitzroy, Fox, Gibbs, j Harper, Henry, Hursthouse, Johnston, Kelly, Kenny, Macfarlane, Manders,

McLean, Moorhouse, Morris, Murray Aynsley, Ormond Reid, ReynoldRichardson Raymond, Russell, SeymourS Sharp, Stafford, Stevens, Sutton, Tawite Teschenaker, Wason, Whitaker, and Woolcock. Pairs—(Ayes) : Shrimski, Bunny, Rolleston, R. Wood. Noes : Kennedy, Button Hunter and Cox. ' I THE RESULT.—STATE OF PARTIES i This carries the previous question in j favor of the Government, aud shelves Mr j Rees' motion for a select committee. The I result was received with only a few cheers. : The Ministers did not cheer. Major I Atkinson coughed conveniently. Mr j Whitaker was dry. The facts shewed j plainly that thirty-four are in Opposition, j A want of confidence motion is again rumoured. Ministers claim to have a majority of fourteen if such an event arise. EDUCATION BILL.-A SCENE. The House then went into committee on the Education Bill. A scene occurred between Major Atkinson and Mr Gisborne. Several members in committee on the Education Bill touched on abolition. Major Atkinson jumped up in temper heat, and beat about in an unusually warlike manner He addressed his remarks at Mr Gisborne. -' And now," said hi, "I am going to talk to the hon. gentleman. lam going to tell

of the means he adopted to get into this House." Mr Gisborne, at this, jumped up, and objected to what he considered an imputation that he had used unfair means to get into parliament. The honourable member seems unhappy, continued Major Atkinson, but before he could proceed further, Mr Rolleston jumped up, and exclaimed, "I am unhappy. No member of this House can now criticise the Government without receiving volley- of personal abuse." The excitement in the House, which was unusually full for committee, grew intense. Mr Rolleston's face was suffused with anger. Major Atkinson's was not much better, lie stood with his hands in his pocket, swaying backwards and forwards. Mr Rolleston and Major Atkinson both spoke together for a minute. Mr Gisborne joined in. At last Major Atkinson, amid loud cries of -"adjourn," apologised for any thing he might have said to hurt the honorable member for Totara, and the House adjourned.