MR GLADSTONE ON THE EIGHT HOURS' QUESTION.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume XX, Issue 43, 12 August 1892, Page 19

MR GLADSTONE ON THE EIGHT HOURS' QUESTION.

The following is condensed from the official report of Mr Gladstone's interview with the deputation of the London Trades Council : — Mr Gladstone — Your desire is that this qneßtion should be put into my plans ; but 1 must tell you that I have always thought it to be my first duty to the industrial classes to put them in a position, so far as I can, to use their legitimate power according to their consciences and convictions for the advancement of the objects they think mo9t important. Therefore, apart from such questions as free trade and an open market for the goods of the people, my desire is to perfect the instrument which gives power to the bulk of the nation. That instrument is the franchise — a franchise protected by secret voting, and made thoroughly effective by good registration laws, and by some other changes that arejas yet incomplete. A gooi ile»l,no doubt, still remains to be done in conjunction with that duty. I meitioned at Newcastle many of these points. lam very far from regretting that you have raised this discuf>9ion not only in this room but in the country. lam indeed very glad of it. If you had set about this question 30 years ago you know well how different would have been the circumstances, You have had meetings, discussions, and demonstrations, which I regard as extremely useful ; but of course you must recogni c that there are difficulties in your way. I am not quite certain, for instance, whether yuu are as near unanimity as Mr Bbipton has suggested. With regard to the mudeof shortening the hours of labour, there are two sets of views which are probably represented by the writers of a couple of letters that have been scut in. One of these gentlemen is aMr Edeon, who represents that be belongs to the Amalgamated Society ot House-decorators and Painters. He calls attention to the fact t'<j.t whea a vote was last t.ken on the subject through that society there were 158 for a legal eight-hours day and 354 against it. Mr Shipton— That is perfectly trui, an 1 that was the difference of opinion I referred to in my earlier remarks. Ihe right hon gentlemm then inquired whether the deputation co isulered that under legally-restricted hours of labour the labourer w.lB to continue to make the same profit 1 Mr Shipton — We think that questiou would find its level. He might even make more profit with the shorter hours. Mr Gladstone— Because of the greater efficiency of the labour ? Mr Shiptou— Certainly. Mr Gladstone— But is the efficiency of labour to onke eight hours do the work of ten ? Mr Ship'ou — It might not in all casps. Mr Gladstone— My point is this. Will the employer have the same amount of inducement to employ which be now has ? So far as I understand, you do not hay that eight hours' labour, speaking broadly, wou d pioduc? as much as ton hours. Now, theu, if the employers are not to make the same profit ho* are th^y to continue to give the same employment 1 Would not the dimiau'i jii of prtfits enta\' the diminution ol employment? Mr Gregory said that wag .'8 woul 1 under an eigh" h :>urs' system ba more eveuly distributed, and that personally he w uli even prefer to have a slightly sm-iller wage in order that cure persons might be employed, and havd regular pay. Mr Gladstone — Your answer rather contemplates a reduction of wages on the p-trt of those now employed. Mr Gregory — Of course we cannot regulate the methods of production, nor cm we increase tha ac'iiu wages paid, but we are anxious, evt n auppjMin^ iha' the aggrjgsUe wages should remain the same, that the amount should be divided among the applicants for work. Mr Glaistoue— Supposing tha aggregate wages to remain, the same ?

A delegate — We do not Bay that would be the result, bat if it were we would stand by it. Mr Taylor— Whilst a number of men are working excessive hours at present, others, in consequence, can get no work at all, Mr Gladstone — The effect of reduced hours upon a question of wages will have to be studied, and I think goodwill come out of such a discussion, whether the more sanguine or the less sanguine view prevails — the more sanguine view, which supposes that an Eight Hours' Bill can be passed, or the 1e39 sanguine view of those who, though they do not see their way to such a measnre, will yet promote a general movement in that direction. You have two methods of proceeding. One ia by an Act of Parliament absolutely imposing a limit of eight hours. The other is by an Act imposing the limit, with the option, and, according to a very able little pamphlet by Mr Mathers, there ia a third— that those who require an eight>hours' system should be entitled to call for it, instead of voting themselves out of it. — If you could have a universal eight-hours' day imposed you would make the law comparatively simple ; but I rather gather that yuu are inclined to think that there are trades in which the limit could hardly be imposed. How, for instance, could yon impose it upon seamstresses ? Mr Taylor — The law should prevent them from working in their own homes, and require tha work to be done on the employers* premises. Mr Gladstone — How would you secure that ? Mr Bateman — An enoc ment might absolutely forbid work being done in their own homeß, where some of them now work excessive hours for fome 3s or 4s a week. Mr Gladstone — You would prevent the seamstresses from taking the work home, and so prevent them from earning that 3a or 4a a week. Are you not startled at the extreme length of euch an interference with individual liberty? Mr Shipton— Our Council has not discussed tbat, and we ihava no conclusion on that point on record. Mr Gladstone — The strength of the working classes lies, I maintain, in holding to the principle of liberty. Mr Bateman — Bat, it is not liberty to permit these poor women to commit suicide. Mr Gladstone— That is not quite an answer to my question, which rather is, — Are you prepared to pi event these girls from doing woik in their own homes. Mr Roy— l am personally. Mr Bateman believed the seamstresses themselves would like it, Mr Gladstone — What? They would like to be prohibited from earning even 3a or i* shilliuga per week ? Mr Bi f eman — No ; they would like to be relieved from the neceasit7 of working at home, and to be allowed to work on their ernplojora' premised. Mr Gladstone — Oh yes, I can unders'and that the seamstresses would s*y — "' If you piss a law to secure me employment, lam content to have my employtneut at h ira; prohibited. Mr Bateman — The employers do not give ont the work for philanthropic reisins, but because they waut the work done ; and if it could not be done at homo they would have to provide workshops. Mr Gladstone — Hjw aie the seamstresses to be organised for the purple of expressing their opinion? Mr Pearson — Thjy would have to organise and decide for themselves. Mr G'adstone — Bat if you have scores of thousands of poor persons without organisation dispersed all over the country, how are they | as a body to give an opiaiou on the subject? I Mr Taylor -In the samo manner as the match girls did with I regard to Mr Lowe's Biil, Mr Gladstone expressed doubts whether that settlement was arrived at ia the most satisfactory way, and pointed out in addition.

that it was the case of a restricted industry confined mainly to one locality. It was a very difficult thing to impress the House of Commons by outside opinion an i to seek an enactment carrying legal consequence. He would like to know which of the three m°thods he had suggested they would prefer — ao. absolute eight-houra bill, a bill with the option of exemption, or a bill with the option of inclusion Mr Roy— We shall prefer the middle course. Mr Gladstone — Then the majority of a trade are to impcss legal consequences of which courts of law take notice. How are you to know who are the majority ? Mr Taylor— The majority of the organised trades. Mr Gladstone — But this is to apply to all trades. Do you mean that a voluntary organisation of the character of a trades union is to involve others in legal consequences ? If so, the organisation of the trade itself must become a matter of law and legal authorisation. I do not doubt that with existing arrangements you can get at the opinion of your trades to a very large extent, and perhaps to a satisfactory extent ; but the moment you come to say that the union of the majority of the trades should carry without legal consequences and inclusion or exclusion from a certain law, then you must hare a legal organisation and legal definitions of your membership. Mr Bateman asked if that condition was not fulfilled with regard to trade unions by the requirements that their regulations should be approved by the registrar ? Mr Gladstone said that was so only to a very limited extent, and if the law was to be contingent on the op'nion of the majority of a trade, that majority would have to be fixed just as the majority in a constituency was fixed, and that was a consideration of great practical importance. With regard to the industrial classes of this country the more respect they showed to persomal liberty the better. He repeated that as he had told them bis only attitude to the industrial classes of this country had been to help to put them in possession of the franchise, and now in various points to enable them to use their franchise with thorough efficiency. This was a self-governing country, and the first duty incumbent upon a politician was to enable them to govern themselves. Mr Pearson— How far do you think our proposal is practicable, Bir? Mr Gladstone — You must not aßk me. It is a very serious thing in my position to say that I think anything practicable at all. The moment I say that, people will say, " Then why don't you propose it," Mr Pearson — That is certainly what we do. Mr Gladstone — Don't you think my hands are full enough. Mr Pearson— But perhaps you might drop something less important. Mr Gladstone— lt is difficult to say what might be dropped. If you are satisfied that this eight-hours question ought to take precedence of all others, I say heartily "God speed you ;" bat you must look to some man who is of less age than lam for your purpose. It is fair I should say that in my opinion one of the very highest duties of all politicians, under all circumstances and at all points, is to eßchew and to repudiate the raising of any expectations except what they know they can fulfil. Therefore I say nothing more. I appeal to my life, I appeal to what I have hitherto viewed as my duty to the industrial classes, putting them ia the position of standing up for their own right, and I say that what little future I have you must judge by the past. Beyond that I see my way and know how things are to be done and under what conditions, I must not excite any expectations, even if I believed I could fulfil them, even if I held to the hope that I could fulfil them.