PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume XI, Issue 34, 21 December 1883, Page 21

PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.

Friday, 10th AUOUST, 1883. Bit. Rainsfobd Baviw,. examined. 420. Hon. the Chaibman : Mr. Bavin, yoa have expressed a wwh to give evidence here on the grievance of the Catholics and others in regard to the education system of the Colony !— T was not aware of the specific nature of the investigation. I understood, ia a general sense, that it was on certain proposed amendments of the Education Act. 421. What is your position in the Wesleyan Methodist Church ? —I am chiefpastor in this city, and for the present year I am President of the Wesleyan Conference of New Zealand. 422. Have your body presented any petition to Parliament in regard to the Education Act ?— Not that lam aware of. 423. What is the number of Wesleyans under your charge 1— ??^o^A tt i hh t t 1 if < i urG^ es^ nthecit ywitllßittily witllBittill ff accommodation for 1100, 250, 150 ; that is the actual sitting accommodation. r^** How many do your body Bomber in the Colony I— About 40,000, according to the census returns. 425 Have you any special school of your own?— Only one in the Colony. 426. Do the children of your denomination attend'the State Svi£Jolß 7 — Yes, generally speaking. v 4 . 27 » ye yon any reli g° n s objection to their attending these schools ?— None whatever ; on the contrary, speaking as pastor to «ay own members, I encourage them to attend. I think it is a very admirable system. J co *2?' Howman 7 children are there at this one school you spoke of ?-— Not more than fifty ; it is only a small infants' school, existing under very peculiar circumstances. 429. Are you aware that the Catholics have a conscientious objection to availing themselves of the State system 2—l am 430. Are you in the habit of visiting the State schools I— Yes. ITor many years past I have been more or less associated with the public system. In Nelson I was a member of the School Committee for two years, and, as such, I visited the schools. At Wanganui I was Chairman of the Grammar School Committee : and I have held an appointment for some years under the Minister of Education as Inspector of teachers in one particular department. On these accounts I have had pretty full opportunities of familiarising myself with the public schools of the Colony. 431. Are you aware that the Catholics have schools solely at their own expense I—Yes.1 — Yes. 432. Have you visited any of them ?— No. „,, 433 - .Iv. Iv visiting the State schools, have yon found many Catholic children m them ?— I am not able to answer that question + , . idi ' Haye J m examined any children in tbe public schools as to tlieir religious knowledge ?— No. 435. Can you tell the number of schools the Catholic have at their own expense ?— I have no means of knowing beyond having observed generally that in every important centre they have their own schools, and usually, I believe efficient schools. 436. Are you aware that there are children of other denominations attending them I—Yes.1 — Yes. 437. Are there any Methodists at these schools ?— Very few indeed, " 438. Do you find that parents of your denomination have any great objection to their children attending the Catholic schools ?-- They have. 439. Upon what principle ?— I am prepared to say they have conscientious objections. ■ 440. Can you state that the Catholic schools are under the Supervision of Government ?— By no means, as far as my information goes. 441. Do you think they have auy objection to it?— l am not able to answer that question. 442. Do you approve tbe State system of educatiou ?— I do not Approve of the operations of the present Act ia so far as the course of instruction provided under it must be purely secular. I should like to be permitted to say that in making that statement in no sense do I claim to represent the Western Church. lam quite aware that, both as regards ministers and people, we are divided on the question. A good many very excellent ministers and members approve ithe present system, secular and compulsory as it is, while on the other hand lam prepared to state that a great number— l am not prepared to state the proportions-of ministers and members are aggrieved at the operations of the present Act, with myself, for this twofold reason : first, that there is no recognition whatever of the Divine Being ; secondly, that the Bible is a proscribed book. 443. Do you approve of the Bible being read in all schools daily ? --I do, provided that it shall be guarded by a strong conscienceclause, and that the power is left in the hands of the local Commititess. I state this because I know there are some of the day-school 2*5.?^* h «f£«»|?I.«OTone l would be very sorry indeed to see the reading of the Bible permitted. They are pronounced sceptics, and for that reason, taking the thing as it is Just now, 1 should prefer Bible-reading being permissive, the power being left in the bands of tbe local Committees. 444. Do you object to the principle of laymen reading the Bcnptures ?-Not at all. I say this because Ido not want one who avowedly disbelieves m a God or the Bible to be called upon to read tne cible in the day-school. 445. Then, you condemn the Gorerr ment for appointing teachers not m any way suited for tbat office ?-I think it ia "i misfortune and LT^J!? \ at teachers who are known to be sceptics should be appointed to that office. I do not think any great proportion are of that class, but, seeing there-are some, I should S p?epa?ed to sa? without disturbing the existing order of things, let thequestion of ?he vi'wiW tbC haDdß ° f the local Committees! That i

446. Do you approve of denominational education ?— I am not prepared to reply to that question in the affirmative, I scarcely know what it means. If it means, Do I wish to see the present national system broken up ? I say, No ; certainly not. Bat I think the withholding of the Bible from the day-schools is imperilling the present system in New Zealand, for which I have fought for years past. I think that allowing the Bible to be read would be a valuable means of strengthening and consolidating the present system of education. At the same time I have no objection personally against grants-in-aid being made to those denominations who cannot conscientiously send their children to the present schools ; always provided that their school are under Government inspection, and that the payment is according to actual ascertained results. 447. The statistics say the Catholics number one-seventh of 'the population. Do you think it would be wise and just that they should have a fair proportion of the grant for education given them for the support of their schools ?— I could not single out any particular religious communion, but I am prepared to say that, in my own judgment, I see no objection against any religious body that through coiU scienhous objections could not send their children to the present schools receiving payment from the State for secular education imparted by them under Government inspection, according to ascertained results. 448. Do you consider that any relief should be given the Catholics on the grievance they allege they suffer ?— Personally I think so, on the ground that any grant-in-aid made to them or to anybody else for the seculaT results produced in their schools is not money granted to build up a religious system. The State takes no cognizance whatever of the religion or irreligion taught in the schools ; but this money is paid on account of secular educational results produced • and if these results are satisfactory to the Inspectors appointed by the Government, and in every other respect their schools come up to the standard prescribed, then I fail to see that there is any wrong done in that, or that the grant in any sense can be said to be a grant to that particular denomination. It is on account of secular results produced only. 449. What alteration of the present Act would you suggest to remove the grievance of the Catholics without inflicting injustice on other denominations ?— I am not prepared to answer that question except so far as the statement I made just now is an answer, - 1 am prepared to say what alterations in the Act I should personally like to see. 450. Have your denomination made any claim to the Government for anything for denominational schools ?— Not since the Act of 1877 has been in force. . 451. Then, your body does not ol>j»cfc to the present system ?— We have not taken any action as a b »<ty, although, in my own judgment, such action is looming. Ido not think it will be long before there will be action in favoor of Bible- leading in schools, bat not beyond that. 452. In your visits to the State schools, do you find that the children of other denominations besid s yours are backward in the knowledge of Scripture?— l have no means of ascertaining, inasmuch as the^course prescribed in the present Act is entirely secular. If you mean, Do I consider that under the operations of the present Act there is any considerable amount of religious ignorance in consequence? lam prepared to say I believe there is. 453. Do you think that secular education tends very much to infidelity.— No. not very much. lam not prepared to say it does. At the same time I believe the outcome of the present Act is to withhold the knowledge of God and the Bible from a number of children — I will not say a considerable number — who neither get this knowledge from the Sunday School nor in their homes. They do not therefore, get it at all. I have ascertained that is a fact. And I believe there is a considerable increase of " larrikinism " and crime as the outcome of it. 454. How. Db. Gbace : Will you state what you mean exactly in saying you believe the withholding of the Bible from schools is imperilling the present system ? — I mi an there is a growing amount of dissatisfaction with the present Act in consequence of the exclusion of the Bible, and thus it is alienating many of those who had been supporters of it. Generally speaking, we went in heartily as a body for the present national system, and consented to give up our day-schools for it— we had some important schools in Canterbury, for instance— on the understanding, I believe, that the repetition of the Lord's Prayer and Bible-reading was then contemplated under the national system. But, in consequence of the Act being entirely secular, I am bound to say that, in my own judgment, a good many of our own people, and a good many of the public generally, are becoming dissatisfied with tbe Act. And I think that any provision ia the Act which occasions any large or growing amount of complaint is imperilling the system. 455. Were the schools your body bad before 1877 efficient and satisfactory ?— I believe they were, both to our body and to the Government Inspectors. 456. Were you in the habit of receiving State aid.— Yes. 457. To what extent?— lt was under the provincial system. I do not remember the ekact amount. In Canterbury, for instance it was the amount prescribed under the Education Ordinance of the province. 458. It was of material assistance ?~ Yes. 459. Did you supplement that amount by the voluntary system — We did. 460. To what extent do you suppose your voluntary contain bntions -went on a capitation basis. Was it a heavy tax ?— No ;it was chiefly in the shape of school fees, which, together with the capitation allowance, almost supported the schools. I was Acting Chairman of the School Committee in Kaiapoi for a year, and, as far as I can remember, the only actual cost upon us outside the fees was the co9t of erecting and maintaining the buildings. 461. What were the school fees ?— I am not able to say precisely. They ranged from 4d to 8d or 9d a week. I know we had a graduaj ted scale in the case of families. If there were several children in a ! family, there was a proportionately smaller fee.

462. Did you find that the parents complained of the cost to them of that system ?— I do not remember that we were troubled with any serious complaints. I know there was trouble in collecting the fees. On the whole I consider it was an objectionable system having the fees. 463. On account of the difficulty of administration?— Yes. 464. What alterations in the present Act would you personally like to see ?—ln? — In the interest of the Act itself, for I heartily believe in a national system of education, and I long to see the present system strengthened and made more effective — in the interest of that I simply propose, in the first place, that the schools should be opened by reciting the Lord's Prayer; secondly, that the permissive power of having Bible-reading should be given to the local Committees ; in the third place, I should like to see the question seriously considered whether the Wednesday afternoon of each week should not be given up so that ministers and others duly accredited might, in their own way and in their own or in the school buildings, just according to their consciences, impart religious instruction. My reason is that ministers and churches are blamed, I am quite aware, for not doing their duty in imparting religious education. I find it is practically impossible to do it. The children are under high pressure. The home lessons and the work of the school become so exacting that often there is no time left, and there is no brain-power or fitness left. Saturday afternoon is a most inconvenient time for parents. I should very much like to see tried the giving-up of Wednesday afternoon in this way. I observe it is done in some superior Bchools, e.g., the Wellington College, where there is a holiday every Wednesday afternoon. Ido not see why that might not be tried as regards the primary schools. These are the only alterations I should like to see in the Act. 465. Hon. Me. Reynolds : You would have no objection to any religious denomination having State aid ? — That could not conscientiously avail itself of the public system. 466. Who is to decide as to conscience ? — Themselves. 467. Not the Government ? — By no means. 468. Do you think the Wesleyans would take advantage of that permission — in cities, for example ? — I am satisfied personally, were those concessions I have referred to made, no such application would be made by us ; but, if the present secular system is maintained intact, I am not prepared to say, in my judgment, it is not improbable. There is a growth, in v my opinion, of feeling in this direction ; but, as this is purely a matter of opinion only, I wish to be exceedingly careful how I speak on behalf of the Church to which I belong. 469. Do you know the feelings of other denominations in the matter ; for example, do you know the Episcopalian body would go in for denominational education ? — Well, I think myself, if this were allowed — Bible-reading optional with the Committee, together with anything like a provision for an afternoon a week to be set apart — I do hot think myself, to any considerable extent, the Episcopalian Church would then object to the presat system. 470. Do you know sufficient of the Presbyterian Church to give an answer with regard to them I—Only1 — Only just my own opinion, which is that they would welcome the present system then, and would never dream of establishing different schools of their own. 471. Then you would give grants-in-aid to Freethinkers as well as to other religious denominations? — I am prepared to abide by my statement — to any who have conscientious objections, and they should decide that for themselves. 472. Mb. Swasson : Would you propose that the Bible should be read m the schools by the scholars verse about by the teacher, or how ?— I have no particular feeliDg as to the mode ; I would leave that in the hands of the teacher to provide what selections should be read. . Would you recommend that passages be selected, or have indiscriminate reading ? — I would rcommend that the common-sense of the teacher be trusted in the matter; I would leave it to him. 474. How would you propose to utilizT Mn Wednesday afternoon in a large school ? — Asiar as the schools are concerned, my proposition would be to close them all on Wednesday afternoon. 475. And let each denomination use their own or other buildings I—Just1 — Just as they might arrange. For instance, in Nelson, we found no serious difficulty in closing the schools an hour earlier on Wednesday afternoon, as we could do under the present Act, where all the Protestant clergymen were at that time on the Committee. We secured the four hours of teaching required by the Act, and we were able to agree amongst ourselves, and we selected the Provin cial Hall and gave religious instruction there as per agreement betwixt ourselves as ministers. 476. You think the present system might go on with satisfaction to your society, provided the Wednesday afternoon were given for that purpose ?— T think so. I say, again, it is satisfactory now even as it is, to a considerable proportion of our people, who are prepared to accept the Act just as it is, and would make no concessions to anybody. 477. Who would oppose the Wednesday afternoon proposal ?—? — l es ; whojvould oppose any alterations for fear of interfering with the prejf^Act. Bnt there are a considerable number I know who would approve the suggestions I have made. 478. Yeu are in favour of National education I—Yes.1 — Yes. 479. Do you not think that giving grants-in-aid would have the effect of weakening the present system ?— I do not. I think all the talk about the thin end of the wedge and so forth is mere chaff. _ 480. Well, as the Episcopalians and the Catholics are the large majority of the people, if their clergy are to be trusted as representing the people they insist on denominational education. Well if they got half the money granted to them, without speaking of other denominations, could we carry the Act on as we are I—My1 — My own opinion is that if Bible-reading were permitted in schools, and opportunity given for imparting religious instruction by the clergy or others m the way I suggest, Jthat the great bulk of the Anglicans throughout the Colony would accept the national system. No doubt it would be as you say if the Anglicans .were to avail themse.ves of grants to any large extent.

481. I apprehend that the subsidizing of any denominational schools means that the clergy should have the appointment and dismissal of the teachers ? — Not necessarily or exclusively the clergy. It has never been so with us. 482. But the denomination would ? — Yes. 483. And the State would have the pleasure of paying them ? —•Yes. 484. Would it not, then, be in effect, whatever the theory might be, that if the State paid the schoolmaster a good salary, that would be all the salary he would get ?— My own feeling is that what the State wants to see is a certain amount and quality of education. 485. Yes? but suppose the capitation were paid to a good school, would not the master get a good salary ?— Of course, it would depend upon the rate of capitation allowed, 486. The surplus on the capitation for the big schools is now taken to help the smaller ones. If the full capitation was allowed for a denominational school, say, with a hundred scholars, would not that be ample payment for the teacher ?— I should think it would. 487. Then, he would be paid by the State to give religions instruction gratis to that denomination. Would not that be the State paying for religion?— l think not. What the State wants is a certain amount of secular education, and, if any religious body produced that in their aided school, that is all the State should know. 488. But still the fact would be that State aid was being given to that Church ? — I am not able to reply further. 489. Mb. Feldwick : Do you not think the absolute removal of the Catholic children from the public schools would remove the main objection to Bible-reading in the schools? —I do. 490. I believe your body is one that greatly promotes Sundayschools ?— Yes. 491. It has been a matter of principle with youx body always?— It has. 492. Are they well attended ?—They are. 493. Do you, by means of such schools, get hold of the children of all your members and adherents ? — As a rule we do. 494. There are cases where you do not ?— Yes ; but not among the destitute and poor. 495. Do you think sufficient religious instruction can be given on Sunday only I—l do not. 496. You think it should be given daily ?— I think there should be a recognition of God and the Bible daily. Ido not think religious intruction Bhould be given in the public schools daily. 497. You said you would employ one afternoon a week for the children to come to the buildings of these particular denominations ? — The schools being closed on one afternoon would give the opportunity for that. My point is that at present we have not that opportunity. 498. Have you seen the operation of what has been called the drafting system in a public school ?— Yes. 499. It was done at Kaiapoi, I believe I—Yes.1 — Yes. 500. Was it objectionaable ? — Not as far as I know. I never saw anything objectionable in it. 501. Was it not likely to have the effect of creating sectarian feelings in the minds of the children ?— By no means, as far as I know ; no more than their going to different churches and Sundayschools on the Sunday has. {To be Continued.')