PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.

New Zealand Tablet, Volume XI, Issue 32, 7 December 1883, Page 5

PARLIAMENTARY JOINT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION.

Monday, 6th Augwjst, 1883. Bishop Moran examined— Continued,.} 281. Are you conversant with the system of State education which obtains in England?— Partly I am. I have studied the question very much, but they are introducing so many changes that ii is difficult to keep au cowant with them, but from, the speeches of the President and Vice- President of the Council who look into eiucational matters in England, I learn a good deal of the changes made from year to year. With regard to the system of education or at least the administration of it, because the principle of it i 3 fised by Act of Parliament — I ascertain fiom these sources that there are two descriptions of schools under the educational code of England and Scotland. You have first of all the denominational schools, then the School Board schools. Each denomination has its own schools. These were built originally by contributions of the people, aided by'the State. The aid given by the State until recently was a considerable amount. In each case what was granted was supplemented by voluntary offerings. Then, in addition to that, you bave the Board schools. These schools are conducted by Boards elected by the ratepayers in the places where the School Boards exist, because they are not in every locality, only in certain places. These schools are built entirely by the rates, and are supported partly by the State, and partly by the contributions of the children . With regard to the denominational schools they are supported entirely by a certain capitation given by the Government, bj voluntary efforts, and school fees ; so that one set of schools have all the rates for their maintenance, and the other set of schools are obliged to do without any aid whatever from the rates. I found also that, whilst three millions of pupils or thereabouts attended the denominational schools, 800,000 attended the Board schools ; and the Board schools, with 860,000 pupils in England and "Wales, receive al the rates, whereas the schools with three millions of children receive no aid whatever from the rates. And that is the 6tate of things against which a considerable portion of the people of England are now rising in insurrection. They say it is exceedingly unjust that the Board schools should have all the rates. - 1 consider that is unjust, and I fancy that public opinion is shaping itself in the direction of repeal of the law. 282. Would the English system meet the views held in this country ? — No ; because it would only be to a great extent a prepetuating of the present injustice. 283. Do you think that the impression throughout the whole intelligent portion of the Catholics would meet your views as now expressed ? — I am quite sure it would. 284. The first clause of the petition of the Anglican Synod is as follows : " That your petitioners are convinced that any fully satisfactory measure for education by the State should contain a provision for grants-in-aid b-.ing made to schools set on foot by any religious denomination, provided that the attendance and secular instruction in such schools shall come up to the required standards, and satisfy the Government Inspectors." 285. Have you any objection to that I—None1 — None whatever. 286. The second clause of the petition says : " Your petitioners are further of opinion that the Education Act should be so amended that provision may be made for the communication of religious instruction in the public schools by ministers of religion or by persons duly authorized by them, to the children belonging to their respective communions within -schools hours." 287. Do you indorse that? — No; not in the public schools because I think it would be most injurious to the children. It would lead them to a contempt of all religion. Various conflicting religions would be taught there— religions under various conflicting principles. 288. You do not think a layman is a proper person ? — Yes ; I bave no objection to laymen teaching children religion. It is on the score of the evils arising from the children seeing people going there and teaching conflicting system I',1 ', "and the t jachers being diametrically opposed to one another oa many points. 289. The third clause is : " Your petitioners are also of opinion that local Committees should be empowered to direct that specified portions of Holy Scripture be subjects of instruction in the schools under their control, the rights of conscience being observed. What is your opinion on that clause ? --I am opposed to it entirely. On the same principle — or nearly on the same — lam opposed to the previous clause, because I do not see how the thing proposed could be done. What religion would they teach ? Ido not see what religion they could teach 1 There is no such thing as a common Christianity in reality. 290. Hon. De. Grace : You stated that your schools refused no pupils ? — That is correct as to our primary schools. 291. How do you manage in the case of wh«fc are ordinarily called ragged children '/ — We refuse no one. First of all, we refuse do Catholic, and no others as a rule apply to us. We refuse no Catholic, except a boy who has been at our school and has been committed to the Industrial Institution for ill conduct. We do not readmit him into our schools for a long time. That is the only

instance in which we refuse any pupil admission to our primary schools. 292. In the practical working of your system,-how do you manage to secure that children come clean in person?— Our teachers look after that. If it is a serious case the clergy remonstrate with the parents, and ask that the children be sent clean to school ; and if this is not done we have the children washed and made decent before they come iuto school 293. Are many of the children educated in your diocese the children of poor parents ? — Yes, I dare say the majority of my people are poor ; but we have no abject poverty in the country any where. I am speaking of people of small means — labouring people, and with large families. 294. Oan you pay whether this weekly "payment or payments for the education of the children is felt a severe financial strain? — A very serious strain. There are many with very small wages, comparatively speaking, and they have to pay the expenses of the Church, also contribute towards the erectioa of schools, and then support all these schools. It is a very serious matter for them. 295. Can you state, from your own knowledge and observation, ■whether the class termed " ragged children " are practically refused admission to the State schools ?— I am not able to say from" my own knowledge ; but I have heard that they hare been refused on what I consider fair authority ; but I am not able to state it as a fact within my own personal knowledge. 296. Can you state, from yoar own observation, whether or not the ragged children in the city of Dunedin, for example, are being e<3 abated by the State ? — I think some are educated by the State. ~297. You have said you believe the standard of efficiency in your schools is equal to the standard current in the State schools ?—? — Yes. 298. You arrive at that from personal examinations conducted by yourself? — Or that, together with the fact that we get pupils who have been at the Government schools, and who have not made much progress. At the same time I wish to qualify the latter statement, Their want of efficiency may not he the fault of the system ; it may be the fault of the children themselves ; .but, judging from the percentage of marks made by the children of public schools at their examinations and the percentage gained by children of my own school, who are put through a more severe test and examination, I come to the conclusion that our cbildiren are certainly as efficient, and more efficient, in many instances. 299. Is there any system in operation in England which, if brought into operation in this Colony, would satisfy the Catholics of this Colony ? — No system that would satisfy us. The' Catholics in England are intensely dissatisfied with the present system, but the system there is very much more, equitable and just than the system here, but it does not satisfy the Catholics or the Church of England. 300. Do you understand the system which is ordinarily defined as the sy-stem of payment by results? — I do. 301. How would you define that system ?—lt? — It means this : that there should be first of all a certain allowance as an average attendance of pupils. I consider that only fair to the teachers, because children are not all equally clsver, and parents are not always solicitous that they make progress, and it is very disheartening to a teacher to be placed in an unfavourable position through no fault of his own. I consider that the system ought to include payment on a ceitain average attendance, and then any further payment should be made ia accordance with the results produced from his teaching in the school. 302. Would such a system meet the views of the Catholics of this Colony? — Quite; they would be very glad indeed to have such a system. 303. What average of attendance would you consider reasonable to form the basis of such a system— "he lowest average of attendance ? — That would be decided entirely by the circumstances of the locality. An average attendance which would be fair in one 1< cality would not be fair in another. The average attendance in a thickly-populated locality should be more, in my judgment, than that required in a sparsely-populated one. That is a mere matter of detail altogether. 304. I unjjei stand that you said that the payment by results will satisly you as a petitioner ? — Yes, fully. 305. Mr. Feldwick : You said that the fee in your schools is Is. per week per child ? — That is the charge we have in our common schools. 306. Do you know of cases of special hardship if the charge were enforced ? — I know many instances of special hardship, but we do not enforce it in cases of hardship. In cases such as men out of employment and helpless widows, we make up the sum ourselves in order that the teachers may not suffer. In one school I had I was obliged to pay £25 one year, £26 another year, and £27 4s, another year in order to make up for the fees, so that the teacher should not ' sustain a loss. <4fck 307. So that the teachers' salaries are precarious, depending on tPse fees? — We genet ally give them a fixed salary, and' if the fees do not amount to the salary we have to make up the balance. 308. Do you think, in the event of Stiite aid being given, you would have schools in the smaller town*?— Certainly ; we have them in the smaller towns at this moment. We had a school for years at which there were only fifteen Catholics, and we paid a teacher for teaching these fifteen children. 309. What would you say in the case of sparsely-populated rural districts where there is a Government school ? — That is an exceptional case, and mus be treated exceptionally. 310. You are aware that in Mr. Curtis's Bill those not availing themselves of State schools should provide their own buildings. Would you be prepared to do that ? — We are prepared to take an instalment of justice on the understanding that we are at liberty to demand full justice. 311. Have you formed any ides of what would be a sufficient sum to be paid per child based on payment per results ? — My answer to that is this : I think we are entitled in justice and equity to the same capitation allowance as is given for other people's children,

312. Perhaps you have some idea of what would be sufficient?— I suppose we would be satisfied with what the other people got. 313. Then the amount would have to be fixed by the Education Boards, according to what was paid to other school?? — Certainly ; we ask no more. 314. Mr. De Lautoub : I think you said you had eighteen schools in your diocese. I did not observe whether you told the Committee the cost of those schools?— For lmd and buildings for school purposes, £30,500, in the last. twelve years. lam not able to give the statistics before twelve years ago, as I only came to the country a little over twelve years ago ; "but daring my time in the country we have spenb on the croc-ion of schools, and providing sites and buildings for school purposes, £30,500. I cannot state accurately what the cost of maintenance has been during that period, but Icon Id give a very good guess. I know what the maintenance would cost the Government — £5,500 a year. It does not cost us so much as it would cost the Government, owing to the manner in which we work ; and I think I am speaking justly and truly when I say it has cost us about £3,000 a year. The way I arrive at that is thia : we have at the present moment nine male teachers, independently of pupil-teachers and thirty female teachers, independently of pupil and assistant^ teachers, and, taking one with another, all round, they cost us about £100 a year, and that would make about £3,000 annually, and that is about what it costs us ; and the cost to the Government, for the same number of children, would be £5,500. „ , 315. Is not the pressure upon your people mow excessive in country districts than ia thickly-populated districts ? — I do not know that it is more excessive, because of the extra cost on -the buildings and the enhanced value of the land in the thickly -populated parts. 316. In some country districts are there not a greater proportion of Catholics — for instance, at St. Bathans ? — I am not prepared to say that Catholics are in the majority in some country districts. lam not prepared to say that even at St. Bathans theyarein a majority ; but I think at St. Bathans .there are more children; attending the Catholic school than attending the Government school. I am under that impression, but lam not" certain. - - 317. Mb. Munbo : Is there any possibility o£ the bodies agreeing amongst themselves as to a "class- book containing religious instruction I—None1 — None whatever ; at all events, so faT as we are concerned.' 318. There is no common Christianity ?— Not for us. Wemust teach our religion wholly and fully, or not at all. 319. You know the system agreed to— that of the Commissioners — in Ireland? — The Catholics were never a consenting party.: . - 320. Would the Catholics be content -with a capitation grant ?tThey will be glad of anything in the direction of justice, but they will never be satisfied with any thing short of complete justice. 321. Me. Swansox : I think you stated that the Catholics never received any endowment or monetary assistance from the Government? — NT one whatever in my diocese. ' ' 322. Do you say, as an absolute fact, that the Catholics have received no educational endowments ? — Not in my diocese. 323. lam talking about the Catholics of the Colony I—They1 — They have some small endowments in other dioceses. 324. Do you consider it the duty of the State to see that its children are educated? — I do not think it is. I think the State is going beyond its function in becoming a schoolmaster. . 325. Do youjthink the majority of the Catholics of the Colony are of that opinion ? — Yes ; those who are capable of forming an opinion, who are sufficiently educated and sufficieatly instructed to understand the question. 326. Are you aware that some such proposition as you have made has been in practice in the Colony, where the money was divided amongst the different denominations ? — Yes. 327. Are you aware that it broke down completely ?— No, I am not ; nor do I believe it either. 328. Are you aware that the people of your, denomination in Auckland actually petitioned to have a different system? — That does not prove that the denominational system broke down. It proves maladministration in Auckland, if you will, but it does not prove that the denominational sy stem broke down. 329. If the Government find the money for the different denominations to pay the teachers, will that not transfer the servants of the State—the teachers — to be the servants of the clergy ? — No. 330. For instance, would you not claim the power to dismiss any teacher that does suit you ? — Yes. ' „,->' 331. Then whose servant will he be I—l1 — I should be able to dismiss him, but I would not interfere with the State paying him. The State can watch over the expenditure of its own money, but under the denominational system I will not have a master in my school who misconducts himself. 332. Have you any objection to anything now taught in the State schools ? — Yes ; there are a great many things taught which are odious to Catholics. 333. Will you state an instance ?— Take the histories. Any one acquainted with the histories will know that there are many things offensive to Catholics in these books. 334. Would it satisfy you if these histories were altered op dismissed from the schools altogether?— No ; because lam opposed to the system altogether. 335. Would it be possible for the clergy to overtake the religious edusation by teaching on holidays, Sundaj s, and after school bourB — if they were all energetic, and devoted as much time to it as you appear to do ? — No. 336. Tf this system of education you propose were agreed to, would it not have the effect of breaking up the present system of education ? — I will divide my answer to that question. First of all, even if it did, that would be no objection to my mind, because I am opposed to the system on principle. It would be a good thing, I think, to break it up. Secondly, Ido not think it would do so, for everylody except ourselves is satisfied with the present system, (To be continued. )