HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVIII, Issue 3903, 6 September 1873, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

;Thub9day, 4th September. The Spkakee took the chair at half-past two o'olock. NEW MBMBES. Mr Vincent Ptkb was sworn and took hia seat. THB "WAIKATO QUESTION. Mr WAKEFIELD asked the Natiye Minister what further steps, if any, than those of which the House has already been informed, hare been taken to assist tho operation of the law in the district in which the criminals who murdered Timothy SnllivjCri, on the 25th of April last, hare taken refuge ; and whether he considers it probable that, without risking by any preoipitafce measures the disturbance of ( thd generally peaceful oondition of the oalo'ny, thone criminals will be brought to justice within any reasonable period ? ' Mr M'LEAN said the Government were ! taking steps in the matter. There was nothing epecinl to report at present in the matter. If there bad been, papers would have been laid on the table. Mr WAKEFIELD asked the Native Minister whether only the birciimstancos attendant on the murder of Timothy Sullivan, on the 25fch of April, or any any other reasons, hare caused the non-fulfilment by him of his interi tion, as stated in his memorandum of the 7th April, to return shortly to Kawia to meet the King and his adherents ; and whether he can assure the House that, notwithstanding that lamentable event, he is Btill of opinion that such a meeting would pave the way. for effecting more friendly relations with th 6 King party ? ' . ' ■ Mr M'LEAJST said the cause of the meeting having been postponed was the change of" Ministry and the near approach of the session ' of Parliament, which caused his time to be fully occupied otherwise. TABANXKI HAEBOB WOBKB. The debate on, the question that, in the opinion of this House, it is desirable that the Government should carry into effeot their pro> mise made to the Superintendent of Taranaki in the session of 1871, in reference to the construction of harbor works at New Plymouth, was resumed. . ■ The motion wus ultimately withdrawn, the proposals of the Government for the purchase of land in Taranaki to some extent meeting the requirements of the case. GOID DUTY. The interrupted debate on the question, that a reduction of 6d per' ounce be made in the gold duty — and the amendment moved thereto, that power should be -given.' to. the legislatures of the provinces to reduce, if they think it expedient, the duty on gold; arid that the Government be requested to bring in a bill for that purpose during the present session — was resumed. A. very leng diacuflßion easued. The original motion, and the amendment were put successively, and negatived on divisions— the first by 31 to 26, the second .by 36 to 15. ■ ■; RAILWAYS. The SPEAKER cnlled tho attention of the House to a gross irregularity wliioh had been brought under his notice. It appeared that a paper had been placed in: members' pigeon holes containing what purports to. be evidence given by a witness before the Timber Floatage Committee ; and he trusted the House would take notice of .such an improper proceeding. ■ . Mr T. L. SHEPHERD pointed out how such an offence might be committed unwittingly from an ignorance of the forms of the Houße, and instanced haw the hob member for Mount Ida had given information, obtained as a member of a committed, to a newspaper. Mr MERVYN explained the circumstances which had led to the allegation. Mr LUCKIE said ■ that; an ex.parte statemerit, such as that of placing evidence in members' pigeon holes, was not likely to influence the House. , In reply to MrKblilißaTOK, -.• . -„ f . The SPEAKER said that no member of a committe was justified in making known any* thing thofc transpired within the committee, room, not even to make known what evidence/ he might have given himself. . ' Mr ROLLESTON said that this fact should be made more generally known, as he thought an opposite idea entirely was entertained upon the point by a large 1 majority of people. ■ Mr SWANSQN paid that he for one was unaware that in making knb'wri" : th6 ; 'evidence given before a select committee! he' was committing any wrong. He confessed that be had done so himself, and he believed many others had also. He thought members should be specially warned of the enormity of offending on this point. Mr TOG-EL said the regulation was neither new nor surprising. The offence referred to was similar to that of a case before the. Supreme Court when a witness caused his evidence to b£,printed and laid before, the jury in a form different to the ordinary niodo,followed by the Court j arid' an offenoe' of that.; kind would be held to be contempt , of Court. After some further, discussion, ■ { . Major ATKINSON called attention to the annoying practice which existed of members' papers being taken- from the pigeon-holes, and in some cases other papers being substituted. (Hear, hear from' several hon members.) , .... . Both questions were allowed to drop. ■ WELLINGTON COLLEGE I.OAW BILI. Mr BUNNY moved that the House ■ disagree with the amendments made by the Legislative Council on this bill. ' ' ' . Agreed to, and Messrs Brandon', Pearce, and Bunny, were appointed managers to confer with the Legislative Council upon the amendments. , _ ' ■ ' , JOINT-STOCK COMPANIES BILL; ' The amendments made by the Legislative Council in this bill were' agreed to. : MASTEB3 AND APPRENTICES ACT AMENDMENT ' : bill. '■- '•■-•"'• ■ , •' >■ Sir J. 0. WILSON moved the second read» ing of this bill. . *■ On objection being taken by Mr. Lpokie, on the ground that the House should have been furnished with more information in the matter, the second reading was adjourned till Thursday next. ' * , . GOLD MINING DIBTBIOTS BILL : The report on this bill was agreed to, and the bill passed. THE PHOTEOTION OF ANIMALS BILL was read a third time and passed. COMPENSATION OP PATEA A2*D WANGANtfI SETTLEBB. ' On the motion that the House resolve itself into a committee of the whole House to consider of a respeotful address to the Governor, praying his Excellenoy to place upon the estimates a sum. of £25,000, for the purpose of compensating tho settlers in the Patea and Wanganui districts f6r the actual loss ef property they suffered during the years 1868 and 1869, through the Maoris in those districts being in arms against her Majesty's authority. Major ATKINSON proceeded to explain the grounds upon whioh the claim was based. He would have preferred had the G-overnraent seen their way to bringing down a measure to deal with such cases on some general principles. The importance of the question was such that it deserved to be dealt with in a comprehensive and final manner. The hon member then proceeded to pass in review the various Btepß taken by the House in regard to questions of compensation, to: show that the residents of the districts referred to had very stroag claims upon the Government through the direct effects of the legislation of the House. Various cases were then instanced of compensation being awarded to people in Taranaki upon the most diverse grounds, and also to persons outside of that province. Although he wa3 prepared to admit that these established no legal olaim on the part of his olients, it nevertheless showed that some sort of moral obligation wan due from tbe Government to citizens. The hon member, after giving instances to show how the Government of the day had

j systematically evaded -as, ;mjo|i[-lis.: possibledealing with qu^'s^oriß of iTOmperisation, re» v ':: ' ferred to the escape ofjtbe "Maori -prisoners from the Chatham '6larjd^|rpnS|: which arif.e - several claims for; oomriejtUatiotht Claim* were sent in for the fii'fleW&h and UTlorencs schooners, for. all the othW pi^pe¥t>Jclestroy< & and made away with, and even foftlhe money abstracted from the Government chest. Every claim -was at. once ordered to be satisfied in full, and without anj distinction whatever being made, according to. the oiroumstancea of the ease, as might, reasonably be supposed would have been done.- Applying- the result of thosa claims to those he was urging, h© failed to see what, objection OQuld be raised against their justice; In order to show that tho original interifciott of tbe Gov»rnni&n£ was to meet claims subh ai§ that he waSfciUrging,. the hon member referred to tbe terinit ofcihe Outlying Districts. Police Bill.: Tbe, provi* sions of of this bill made it abundantly clear tb * K ' 'flrnuienib then contemplated compensMjng outlying settlers' for losses wherp proper promotion' had riot, been afforded. The war in whioh. . these losses were incurred wa» in no cense a settlers' war. It solely originated through the Government, who deoided upon their ..line,, of aption when, by ordering the arrest of certau^r natives, they created tb> war. After sketching the salient features of the war to the deportation of the native prisoner* to Otago, the hoh memberpoirit«cl out how -the Government had treated fchesa moa upon' being released ftoih oonflnenjeht. ii vThej [were not only given back their land, bufc were I furnished with : food, aijd.agripulturalf implements j 'while at the_jame :J tiirie the' settlers, who stood, by the, Government j n j^j. o f trouble, at their imminent perirana ruin, were ..told that their! 'olaims could npt beentaineS. If that' fact" were" published it i the London ",Time,a" f and, made kriowrC tp. the public of Great Britain; 'He;. would; 1 HkYfo know the, effeot .it would create on intending immigrants'?, A j What wottfcf they say when they found that, the Governmenj; was nofc abletor protect them? "' ""- ' '■■,'■. .-. : c Mr WJLMAI^, seconded the motion".'. '-ZMr' YOGEL" sai^that, if cases of this kink were to be entertained* every session, it would be.jmpossible for any Treasurer to form any. estimate as to the finances of the colony,- Hewas Under the impres|ion that the House, bad long ago set Us face against tQ e recognition of "olaimabfthi* kinCdiV !He held thafc'efeii^^ati were not so, it would be exceedfn^ly^imp^oulfB 1 to accedo to such olaihW ; By not doing bo they were doing that which would be one of the greatest' Bttfeguard» b? tfie present polfoy of forbearance. iQnce let it be known that the Government -had^ given' w^y' in 1 ihw-maeteS^ ! and there would be no end to such «pp]ioa«tions, and ten timeß £25,000 would "be "required to meet them." His own opinion #ar that there;had already been a great deal v too much oompensatiou. He hoped the' Ho'tfae- ' would ndtenfertairi the claim ripon any pretext whatever. I*'1 *' Mr L^CKlE^objeoted to Superinjieridents, in office in embrjfo, loading the Order Paper with motions ffor:r r: large sums of money. Ho could not 'but regard the, practice ;^oiße* . thing very" like humbug j and^ he, agreed with', the view take«-by'the"",Cdloriial Treasurer. """ * ' Mr ROLLESTON said' that; While sympathising with, .the. hardships^ auffereid ."in many instanoea by "'settlers, and /admiring" the dia» passionate and arguWehtatlve way . in ivl^i oh, the hem mover, has Submitted his claim, h"e wai . surprised' thai he'liadnot moved instead for a commission of inquiry. He submitted that this would hare been the proper coarse,, be* cause the precedents of .the House were nQt in favor of entertaining the prop6|at^3/: Itjhad already been affirmed by resolution that^Ke House would not hdld itself responsible, for- nsuch losses as those complained ! of. x Itwasimpoßßible",rtheVef6re,';that tho Colonial Treasurer could, hare. /taken any others attitudethan that of refuaing.to entertain the propjS^ Sal. „- • --'„'.'. .- . ,'s . - ,;<•'. Mr BRYCB, who supported' tne motion, said that such an important. queet jon shQuldbe looked atfromliigHiSl ; andbrdadißrgrouudithan those tafeeh' up- b^ the ifdri T gentleman at the he^ad.of.Jthe Gp.vfrhmerit.^ The rjasVanH pres.ent praotioe of 6the| and oldeTr coqfttries afforded no precedent for snoh an ratdStade, and no better instances could be Jfn?ijtßh«d; than the claims for compensation arising out of the late war in the United, States and'lthe * Franco-Prussian war, arid the way in which they had been' dealt with. The hon member deprecated Buoh remarks as those made by the hon member for Nelson;' The itiferenc* contained in the. words was moat Uhjusr; ash© well knew that the hon gentleman who moved' the resolution 1 entertained.- the s views iieradro* cated that night i long before he had any intention of standing for the Superintenoy. He' could not agree with the, hon the Premier that the claim's of thiß kind, if all were"^ul forwrrd, would amount to snoh a su)k" a^ras anticipated.- 'StSlI, he hoped the;m<sV : er*>rQuld adopt the s^uggestionithrpwn out' by thd hoiimember for Avon,. ; : ■■■ , ■' * Mr FOX referred to an, arrangement ieMergd into by theHous.e yea^9 ago on the under- ■ standing that all such claims were to be pre« oluded for the future., r He, said he. feltj, moreover, .that,' if, .they.lvrere apkri^owjfedgeofthr result would tie disastrous to ! the progress of the Colony. , Mr W., KELLY spoke to th,e and concluded ' by mpving,an amendment to^ the effect that the Government daring the reoeifrshould take steps to ascertain the number atid amount of outstanding claims arising out of native wars and disturbance, and that a statement of these before the House fourteen days after the opening of the next session.- , Mr M'LSAN : said <he 'entirely con our red in the remarks of the. hon member for Bangitikei. He was surprised, after the under/ star ding whioh had been arrived at, that such a motion should be.ybrp.aght, forward T '*t v thii time. Feeling., as ()e^p)y as he ,d<d with the many, sufferers who c^ulpl, p'refer.claims against the Government, he stUJ pou]dfnoV that the. House would re"t^-a<je J its. Btepsr from .tha path marked out iri 1867— that' «elf- reliant ■ polioy -which laid down that, the settlers ra^st depend' upon' themselves. It #|s all- ffeKT well to talk about the protection whioh sii&ip be extended to out' Settlers, and to sa^ that th> Queen's writ "sKOuld he made to ranthroughout the land ; but , that, suoh > could not be done,. and' it pnwi«j9, i io' raise- 1 false hopes' in the riiihds of .'sVttlers R by allowing them to believe that at some time they would be 1 cori>pensated. There was verylittla doubt that nothing, less than , £260,000 would meet the claims, which would be raised if they once opened the door to them : beoause they could find as well established claims as tho%a ■ of Patea and Wanganui back as far aB 1845. j and the question simply was. could 'the House say it was prepared to incur suoh a liability, Mr WILLIAMSON eaid it would not be wise to proceed with the consideration of so important a question at so late an hoar, and in so thin a House. He. might state that a petition had been placed in his hands from a number of •setllera at Poverty Bay fior com- • . pensation on similar grounds tb those urged v by the hon member for Egmont— the, oWy difference in the claims being that the petitioners he represented applied for oompenaa* tion in land instead of money. He hoped the debate would therefore be adjourned till the next day, when. he would present the petition ■ placed in his hands. ■-.-. .— Mr SHEEHAN supported the motion. It might be impolitio, yet it was just. : , He. knew that a great many .members had no experience of the hardship of those cases, and therefore- .. felt no sympathy for them. Had they any experience in the matter, he felt that they would '. think differently. It was not ,c] question'rof amount so much as of prinoiple : and he musb . protest entirely against the inference^tq^bajv drawn from the words of the Pren^ierr^amoSfe; unjust one to the settlers of the colonyV- ffit •.," . mnintained that the settlers were nbt|Jresp6rif sible for any of the native wars. Thefo'hadv;ooourred in all parts— of ihe world wh»re. a. 'i. barbarous and a civilised raoe oatne into cbn«: : tact, in spite of all the precautions that oould be devised. As for the Hottse being bbiind by* T: any previous arrangement, he failed to;BeeffchatW-

it was any more bound by that than it was bound by an Act passed a few years back. A. decision could be revoked, and an Act repealed; and if tha one was unjust, and the other unsuitable, it was their duty to reconsider their action. He considered the unsettled state of these claims a disgrace to the colony. To refuse to consider them upon the ground that it would be impolitic and would open the way for similar claims, was an undignifiod and unjust attitude for the j House to take up, and would injure the reputation of the colony in the eyes of the civilized world. He was free to adroit that it would .be deceiving the House to. pretend that £25.000 would dispose of these claims ; but he was also confident that the Government would at length be compelled to afford a tardy recognition of them. He trusted the House would not refuse to consider these claims, by acting upon the amendment proposed by the hon member for Tauranga, Mr YOGEL said, in order that no false impreseion should go obroad regarding the disposition of the colony to meet its rightful obligations, he would read a despatch from Mr Gladstone, who might be considered an Authority upon the question. (The despatch was read, the burden being that no settlers of the British race colonizing new countries had ever been compensated for losses sustained through the acts of their savage neighbors, whether such losses arose through the errors of local offieera or not.) It appeared to him that precisely similar principles applied to giving compensation in land; and he held that the practice tfhioh bad prevailed in the colony of compensating in land had considerably deteriorated the value of land throughout the colony. He hoped ths House would chow by an overwhelming majority that it utterly declined to entertain any more of those claims. Mr KENNY admitted that great inconvenience might result to the Government, but as he held that the same principles which applied to private life should animate a Government, be would support the motion before the House. . There was no comparison between, the settlers of New Zealand and those of North America : the one was allowed to Carry the rifle with the axe and the plough, while we were not allowed to do so. Major JACKSON said that if the Government declined . to accept the moral responsibility of those claims, let it be proclaimed in the Gazette that the settlers would have to protect themselves, and he had no doubt but that the settlers would do so in their own way Without troubling the Government. | After some further discussion, Major ATKINSON replied. He entirely concurred with the remarks of the hon member for Rodney. The justice of the claims could not be silenced, and because they were jiist they would come ■to the House session after session until they would have to bo 'iin.aUy dealt with. They all recollected their experience with the old land claims. They passed final Act after final Acfc, and yet those claims had nob been precluded. He denied that the despatch from Mr Gladstone applied to the case any more than the common iaw\bf England applied to it. He must reifcerate/that those. claims would never be shut out until they were dealt with in an equitable manner ; they would certainly not be shutout of that House while he could bring them forTrar&V ' The original motion having been negatived On the voices, " ! ' The House divided on the amendment, the WBUlt being : Ayes, 20 ; noes, 33. ' -THB NELSON PTTBIIO WOBKS LOAH BIHD •was discharged from the Order Paper, on the motion of Mr O'Conob. OtBABIKa THH OEDER SAME. Mr YOGEL obtained the permission of the House to lighten the Order paper by taking all unopposed measures and putting them through their various stages, leaving measures which would involve discussion to still occupy their relative positions upon the paper. After some discussion, the following bills were read ». tbjrs time and passed :— ■ ; . v . Taranaki Education Reserves Act Amendment Bill, Ulew Plymouth Exchanges Validation Bill, the St Andrew's Church (Wellington) Trustees Incorporation Bill, the Municipal Corporations Act Amendment Bill Volunteer Land Act, 1865, Amendment Bill and the Townßhip of Geraldine Bill. The following bills weve read a second time without discussion : — Otago Waßte Lands Bill (No. .3), Glutha District Public Works Loan Bill,/, 1, The Wellington Burial Bill was committed The Houee. adjourned at 2 a.m. f ,.: Fbibay, sth Sbptembeb. The Spbakeb took the chair at half-past two o'clock. —.'J.\- BBEAOH 0* PBIVILEOE. . J Mr SHEEHAN drew attention to the fact that a document had been placed in members' pigeon holes, being a letter to an Auckland tpaper sighed by Mr Hugh Carleton, formerly a member of the House, in which a statement •WBB'mad? that hia (Mr Sheeban's) opposition toihe Deeds Registration Bill whs. by instruction, the word " instruction" being put in -inverted commas to indicate that what was meant was that it was used in the professional sense and accompanied with a fee. Mr 'Sheehan said that the statement was utterly untrue. He, of course, acquitted Mr Fox, who was in charge of the bill, of having anything to do with the circulation of the document. -Mr FOX confirmed what the hon member said. He knew nothing about it. >■■ The SPEAKER remarked that the proceeding was & highly improper one. He was Surprised that a gentleman occupying Mr Carletbn's high position should have affixed his signature to a letter of the kind. , ' ' POBTIAND ISLAND IIGtHT. Mr ORMOND asked the Government when jt as intended to erect a lighthouse on Portland Island. He trusted they would be able $o Rivja a satisfactory reply. - - Mr REYNOLDS said that, subject to a vote of the House, which they would bring down, the Government would erect the lighthouse in question. The. same applied to the lighthouse in Tory Channel. IMMIGRATION. Mr. REIVES wished te ask a question without notice. It was, Were they to have a Statement from the Minuter for Immigration on that subject ? He might say that was not the most satisfactory department of the GoVtrnment. The SPEAKER said that the question must not be debated. Mr REEVES might say a statement on the subject waß eagerly looked for by the country. Mr M'LEAN said the question would be fully ventilated in a discussion either on the Immigrants' Landsßill or on the question to go into committee 'of supply to consider tlie Tote for immigration. KAtrVB IAITDS BILL On the question being put that the House should go into committee on "the Native Lands Act, ,Mr Shbehak wished to point out the desirableness for making the provisions of the Act applicable to the lands now dealt with under the East Coast Native Titles Investment Act. Mr M'LEAN admitted the necessity for dealing with the question, but thought it would be better to deal with it by a special measure. The House went into committee on tbe bill. On the first clause being put, Sir F> D. Bei.li snggested that the debate should be postponed. Mr FOX supported the proposal. The report was a very able one, and dealt with the whole question in a thoroughly satisfactory manner. It was also gratifying to find that it contained a full and complete vindication of two members of the House of charges made against them in connection with the transaction known as the Heretannga purchase. Mr KABAITIANA desired that the bill should be postponed till next session, that the natives might have time to study it during the recessi

Mr GILLIES said it could not be maintained that everything and everybody was acquitted in tbe manner stated by Air lfox. Mr FOX said he had not, marie such a statement. He repeated what, he had said. Mr GILLIE 1 -* remarked that they had not Mr Mailing's report before them nor the reports of the native assessors. It could not be slid that the question wus finally disposed of till these were presented. | Sir F. D. BELL said that he had not understood Mr Fox to make any such broad assertion as Mr Gillies suggested. It was perfectly true that the report acquitted Mr M'Lean and Mr Ormond in the most complete manner of having used political influence to bring about the purohase of the Heretaunga block. It was also true that, as regarded the good faith of that purchase, it was absolute.. MrSHKEHAN hoped that this personal question would not be raised in the debate on this bill. It could be better taken on another occasion. Mr M'LEAN agreed to adjourn the debate, but hoped the House would let the bill go through committee oe its being resumed. He was very anxious that it should pass this session. After some further unimportant business the House adjourned till next sitting day.