HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXVIII, Issue 3900, 3 September 1873, Page 2

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Tuesday, 2nd September. . The Speaker took Jbhe chair at half-past-two o'clock. ""* GOLDMINING- BILL. Mr YOGEL moved that fche above bill Bhould be recommitted c on Friday. He did not expect the bill to be carried' thia session. He merely moved its recommittal with theview of letting, the House give an opinion aa .to the impropriety of throwing out billa by surpiise. Mojor ATKINSON would nofc oppose the recommittal of the bill. At the same time heentered his protest against the theory laid down by the Prime Minister. It would amount to this, thafc every member would be obliged to give due notice fco the infcroduoer of ' a bill before opposing it. There was no surprise in the case referred to. About fifty members were present. The SPEAKER remarked that it was,. ' according to fche practice of the House of/ Commons, very unusual for a bill once disposed of, as the present had been, to be placed again on the Order Paper. Mr SWANSON thought it was an insult tothe House, as well as fco members' constituents, for them to stay away from fche House while bills in which they were interested were being discussed, and then to come whining and crying aboufc fcheir bills being thrown oiit. Mr SHEPHERD said there was one mem-'-----ber at any rate who was not absent with th© view of insulting the House. There was nomember who spent move hours in that build- . ing than himself. A member who had cried " hear, hear," very vehemently" during tha observations of the last speaker, bad himself' just returned from a trip round the North* Island in the Government steamer. He thought it preposterous that this bill, thischild which had been begotten, brought to maturity, and sat upon for three weeks, shouldnob be thought worthy to be passed. (Laugh- - ter.) The reason why several members had voted against it was tbat (hey believed it would redound too much to the oredit of the hon member for Dunstan. (Laughter.) One member had said so. (Cries of "name.") Howould give plenty of names on Friday. (Laughter and applause.) Mr WHITE thought it very improper of Mr Shepherd to make a statement of tbe kind without) giving the name of fche member he referred to. For his part he did not oar© what credit, or for fchafc matter what profit or - emolument, the hon member derived from tho bill. He had stated his reason for opposing it, that was that it had not been for a sufficiently long time distributed. Mr WOOD opposed the recommittal. Mr S HEEHAW also opposed the recom--mittal. He would call for a division on the question. The question that the bill should be recommitted on Friday -was put, and carried on a div'sion by 82 to 26. FIEST BEADING-. The Otago Ratepayers Roll Revision Bill . and the Masters' and Apprentices' Acfc, 1865, ' Amendment Bill were read a first fcime. BDXTOATION" BIM. The Education Bill was re-committed, on Mr Vo_b_'s motion, .wifch fche view of amending clauses 77, 91, and 102. He. moved that 77. should be altered so fl- to remove the authority to impose rates' to meet oharget already inourred. . ', He moved that 91, whioh , rendered fcbe owner liable in default of payment by the oocupier, should be struck out. In 102, which, was introduced the night previous to enable Superintendents, with the advice of Provincial Councils, to omit certain clauses, he moved thafc a further provision should bo introduced to enable them to revoke fcheir decision if fchey so desired.. All the amendments were oarried without diaoußßion, The bill was reported with amendments. On the question being put that it-should be read a third time, . "' Mr THOMSON said he did not .concur ia the view that that bill would not* be adopted by the Provincial Oounoils. He did not think thafc the Government believed it either. It was an attempt to get a bill simi'ar to the bill of 1871, which was rery distasteful in Otago, introduced by aside-wind. The merobers had nofc given ifc the same oare as they woull had it been brought fairly before them. '_ The bill was read a third time and passed. \ PBOYINOIAL -OAKS EMPOWERING BILL. Mr REYNOLDS said the above bill was a necessity, owing to the certain prospect that there was of a large number of provinces coming into the market as borrowers. They would have brought, a pressure to bear whiot. no Government oould resist. If these provincial loans were authorised,, the: Treasurer would have no peace till the money was raised, *.. even though the requirements of the colony were allowed to stand uniatiefie'd. He agreed with Mr Bunny, that if provinbes like; -■ land were in an unsatisfactory condition; that; •'.". was because their affairs were badly artminis- .-fi tered. He fiiighfc cite Wellington ¥ _nd - Hawke's Bay as instanoes of prosperity due to :. efficient administration, ~-/ r1 f: * 1 Mr COLLINS said the GroTernifienty polioy was as difficult to attack asife^a^flfe defend. Ifc might change beforiß^hetw-Sfdone;^ speaking — it waslike a -jellyfish'; qne;couid :r not get bold of it. He was delighted* to -.ne'aift-: -•£ the Premier's annouhoement inh'is^financiftl^ ;; [ statement, that not another yard otfirtfiWsyfi'fi I should be made without land bTeing taken fi'^ffifii I security, that he had almost determined' to^

Swallow the objectionable features in the Go■vernment'e policy and afford them hia support. He was proportionately disappointed at the alteration. On reading an article on the bill in the Wellington paper whioh supported the G-overnmenfc, he found fchafc all . they had to say in favor of it was that" it Would be inoperative. He did nofc believe it. would be inoperative j it would be operative in a disastrous direction. Mr REID thought ifc was extraordinary that no speeches had been made in favor of the bill except from the Government benches. In reference to the observations of Mr Reynolds on the mismanagement of affairs in Auckland, ifc was a pity they had not some of the administrators there whom he saw on the Government benches. (Laughter.) He paid a compliment to Hawke's Bav — paying a compliment, he (Mr Reid) supposed, to members of hie own administration . "He also complimented Wellington. The satisfactory state of fchafc province, he (Mr Reid) believed, was largely owing to the loan authorized in 1871. This bill would prevent the Assembly from assisting nny other province in a similar manner. Mr Bathgate had gone bnck to the " dark ages," as he called them — the years previous to Mr Togel's accession to office. What was he (Mr Bathgate) doing during that time ? Why, leading a crusade in favor of insular separation. He got up a petition in favor of it, and stated thafc they would go to the Throne with the matter .• " They would fight for their rights on the steps of the Throne." (Laughter.) He admitted ifc was a singular place to fight, yefc those wero the hon member's words. Was that a time when fchey could have gone into a colonial policy ? They had had a policy of progress, then a policy of retrenchment, and now, ifc appeared, a policy of equilibrium. He believed the people wero very gullible. So long as direct taxation was staved off for a- year or two, they would be satisfied. He did nofc oonsider fchafc the proposal for buying an estate for fche Norfch Inland had anything to do with the present question. It was a very difficult matter to draw a distinction between main and branch railway lines. If the Trea surer would put in road districts and municipalities, instead of provinces, he would support the bill. If railways were to be made, they ahould he made out of funds provided in the colony. The reverse would depress colonial securities, instead of enhancing fcheir valuo as stated. Ifc would have an exceedingly bad effect on the monpy market if lenders found thafc money was being borrowed in the colony for other railways than those being constructed by the Government. His cbjecfcious to the bill were briefly these, that in many districts where railways were required they could not be got. The proportion of owners, One-half, required to consent would frequently j not do so when ifc was still desirable thafc the j railway should be mode. In other cases again, grave injustice would be done in forcing the reluctant section to consent, when fche railway would nofc in any way benefit them. (Applause). Mr ANDREW could see no reason why the debate had been adjourned. If fche Government depended on carrying fche bill by means of, votes, not arguments, fchey had shown themselves bad tacticians in nofc having their votes in readiness. (Laughter.) The Government; professed to have attained equilibrium. There were two kinds of equilibrium, stable and dynamic. The first was due to Ihe centre of gravity being within the base of support, the second was owing to the conservation of the axis of rotation. They had an instance of it in fche bycicle, another in the common top. He would ask the Government whioh kind of equilibrium was that which they had attained. Was ifc that fchey had found a point, of support, or was ifc that their ideas on provincial institutions were in a constant and violent whirl ? (Loud applause.) Ifc was all very well to talk of abolishing the provinces, but it was not so easy. Afc the time when Mr Fitzherbert was elected fco tha Superintendency, a- gentleman who did not now occupy a seat in the House, had written to him to come down and hold the funeral Bervice over it. He had come down, bub found that tbe province was not dead. It was no common artist, no common carpenter, who had taken in hand to revive it. After a month or bo ifc was alive again, imposing taxes with renewed vigor. (Applause) Ec would vote for the bill, as it was a step towards abolishing the provinces. If fche Colony were to borrow for fche provinces, he could not see why ifc should nofc next borrow for municipalities and individuals. The provinces were too nearly related to the Government to do business wifch it. Their coming fo the Assembly to get loans authorised was v parallel case to young ladies coming to their papa to borrow money to make themselves attractive on the security of their future husbands. It had been said with truth thafc the Government had no backbone. They did not indeed belong to the order of vertebrates; fchey belonged to that of Crustacea. They had « shell fchafc no taunts could pierce. (Applause.) If the Government had no backbone, however, the Opposition had no head. (Applause.) He bore in mind the line '• Greafc Jove is down, confusion reigns instead," and would therefore vote with the Government. (Loud applause.) Mr RICHARDSON had not intended io speak, but felt that after the challenge thrown out to Ministers it was necessary thut he should do so. He would only draw attention to tbefstute of tbe Order Paper and the number of loans asked for. It would be utterly impossible for the colony to complete the works taken in ha*?d if this provincial borrowing were not stopped. He referred to the remarks of gome of those who had spoken on the other side. Mr Murray when next he got up to apeak against time should fill up the interval with statements of a different character from those made on the last occasion. They were, many of them, absolutely incorrect. He pointed out those which were so. He was much obliged for the complimentary reference to himself. He deserved no credit, however, except what was equally due to his colleagues. The complimentary references of fche member for Rodney were exceedingly distasteful, being to the effect that he had found the department in confusion, and had organised it. There ' could be no more complete misrepresentation. (Applause.) Mr T. L. SHEPHERD would support the bill. Ha thought a provision should be infcro- ' duced restricting the terms, as regarded discount and interest, on which the provinces should be allowed to borrow. That would prevent fche calamity to whioh some members ' had adverted as probable, of fche provinces, for ' the mere sake of self-preservation, borrowing at any rate at which they could raise the money. ' Mr STEWARD said he had at first felfc ] disposed to vote against fche bill, but after , more mature consideration had determined to support it. The Government were wrong i in bringing in such an important measure without previous consultation with those whom fchey bad good reason to believe were ] friendly towards them. Ifc was his opinion that if the bill ' had nofc been reade a Minis- . terial measure ifc would have been kicked out; forthwith. If it had really been a bill to empower the provinces to borrow, he would have 1 voted against ifc. Ifc was, however, only a bill to allow Ofcago and Canterbury to borrow. A ] limitation on fche rate at which fcbe provinces should be allowed to borrow should mosfc cer- * tainly be introduced. 1 Mr JOHNSTON said the whole question of t the policy laid down in tbe Financial Statement 1 Was raised by this bill. He would, therefore, t examine some of the statements made in ifc. 1 The total indebtedness of the colony was | £15,460,000, involving an annual expenditure, ] for interest, of £927,740— more than the whole ( Custom, revenue. Unless the revenue were I immediately largely augmented, further di- f recfc taxation would be required. Tbe statement to the effect that the liability of the •< colony, in' respect of provincial debts, was t only contingent, was a disingenuous and de- ] eeiving one. The interest on provincial debts 1 •wai really paid by the colony, though ifc was *

-called capitation money to the provinces. As to the statement that the colonial risk, in respect of these debts, could be underwritten for a comparatively small sum — if ifc meant that it could be underwritten for a small sum if fche colony left it fco- the provinces themselves to pay ifc, ifc was certainly entirely incorrect. In 1867, ifc would be remembered thafc while colonial debentures were at par, provincial securities could nofc be disposed of at 75. The J measure was the necessary outcome of the state of the finances, and he would accept and support ifc as such. In any case fche mosfc rigid economy would be required. They had ' heard much of late about intended reductions in the Civil Servioe. Surely some such reductions were poseible. Instead of thafc, however, he heard ifc stated thafc two of the Ministers intend to appoint, themselves to high offices in fcho service. Certainly no i members were sonfc to fche Houso for fchafc purpose. (Applause.) Mr . ROLLESTON thought the bill was a fcwo - faced one. It pretended to empower the provinces to borrow, and really prevented them. This alone was sufficient to condemn it. The real, bufc not the avowed object of the bill, was to remove from themselves the odium of direct taxation and throw ifc on to the provinces. No members appeared to be able to make up their minds as to whether fche bill was a provincial or anfci- provincial one. He thought it would be impolitic on the parfc. of the colony to pledge itself to expend £500,000 on native iands in the North Island. Ifc might be much better expended in opening up the country by means of public works. The proposal might turn out. te be the first step towards arriving afc an adjustment between fche two islands. He would rut be disposed to stop at half a million if tbat would effect thafc object and prepare the way for a financial separation between the fcwo islands. Mr FOX said that when he listened to the Cassandra-like orations of Mr Gillies and Mr Wood, he was reminded of the manner in which these two hon members jumped to their legs on its first bring proposed in 1870, as if they had springs in their heels, to denounce it. Since then they had done no thing bufc denounce ifc like birds of night making nighfc hideous wifch their cries. If he or any other member had used such expressions aboufc Auckland, they would have burnt him in effigy. Mr Reid, whh virtuous indignation mantling on his genial face, had condemned Mr Reynolds for saying fchafc the people of Auckland could nofc be left safely to choose their own administration. He thought it appeared to be true. The tnufch was that the Auckland people saw fche affairs of Otago prosper under the management of a Scotchman, so they got a Scotchman to manage their affairs too, bufc there were Scotchmen and Scotchmen. There they had the other bird of night in a livelier strain. In spite of the old motto, Haud ex lignofit Mercurius, ifc appeared to be the case, that there was a kind of " Wood" here oufc of which they could get some eloquence. They had, in fact, a Mercury on the stump. Again, after dinner — such dinner as one could take; his own appetite bad been taken oway by whafc had preceded — fchey had an exhibition of the " funny man." The funniness did nofc consist in anything that he said, bufc in what ho did, encouraged by the clappers. After referring to the speeches cf some other members, he came to that of Mr Stafford. The Premier's allusions to log-rolling had been condemned by him. It was a fact, however, which they could not, gefc over, thafc it existed ; and it would be an invaluable service fchafc fche bill would render if it put a check on ifc. He wondered, however, fchafc Mr Stafford should take any interest in fchafc or any other measure. He had expressed his intention of winding up his affairs and leaving the colony. They were very glad, however, thafc he had altered his mind. They were gUd to have the benefit of any interest he would show in fcheir measures. Wifch much that Mr Bunny had said he agreed. In asking for moro extended borrowing powers for provinces, ho should bear one thing in mind, that was, that such powers would nofc be granted by the Upper House. He concurred with Mr Shepherd's suggestion tba^a restriction should be imposed on the terms on which it should be competent to the provinces to borrow. Mr Rolleston's speech contained many large and sensible ideas. He thought tho fact that some members thought ifc did nofc go far enough in the provincial direction, and that others thought it went too far was an evidence that ifc hit the happy medium. (Loud Applause.) Mr FITZHERBERT thought it was unfortunate that his hon friend who had jusfc sat down should have devoted his speech to administering a caetigation all round fco the preceding speakers who differed wifch him — a castigafcion nofc administered wifch fche humor of which he had in eld times been master. It was especially unfair to Mr Gillies to base on his outspoken statement with reference to the 6tate of affairs in Auckland— an attack on his administration. The causes of the unfortunate state of things there had an origin far deeper than any Superintendent's administration. Now thafc Mr Gillies was about to resign his office, he had entreaties daily begging him to come forward again. This was sufficient proof that it had been satisfactory. Nothing seemed to pleape fche hon member. Because he was nofc able to bring down the House, he tried to sneer at those who did so aa " funny men." About Mr Stafford he could find nothing better to criticise than the attitude in which he stood while he addressed the Houso, and co he proceeded to ridicule that. In reference to the subject before the House, he observed that ifc was complicated by being brought down combined with a Ministerial statement and a Governmetatal threat as to the consequences of an adverse decision. He would first refer to the general question of the Government's proposals. There was first, the ad valorem tariff. He agreed. with fchafc, and regretted that the 15 per cenfc. tariff had not been adhered to. They Bhould have said candidly that they wanted tbe monpy. There was nexfc fche reversal of the proposal to take land as security. Mr Vogel's announcement of the change was open and manly, and he would nofc take up the challenge to fcwifc him with it. Yefc he must explain the reason of his silence. The proposal was the keystone of their policy, and they took it away. If they really possesßed responsible government, the Ministers would no longer be Ministers after doing so. He did not attach any blame to them that they were so. On the contrary, they were free from all possible charges in the j matter. The House hod condoned the charge, bufc tbe fact that ifc had done so showed ifc was thoroughly disorganised and demoralised. As to the new proposals themselves, so far a« they went, they were excellent. They should, however, go further. After relinquishing fche right to charge the trunk railways fco fche localities, thero could be no reason in the continuance of tha system of charging them to the provinces. They might; as well charge provincially the portions of telegraph lines in each province. He would come nexfc to the bitter pill which they were asked to swallow along with tke sweets in whioh it was wrapped up, and which he at any rate would swallow. To propose fche destruction of provinces because they might chance fco be in difficulties was ac bad as to kill off people who were temporarily ill. If provinces were nofc prosperous, thafc was because good men had nofc been elected fco manage their affairs. He approved of the principle of limiting provincial borrowing ta the Aus tralian colonies. He did not like the bill however, beoauso ifc placed unnecessary impediments in the way of provincial borrowing. He had another objeotion to it also, from a colonial point of view. A great financial blunder was being made ; the colonial liability for provincial loans was being continued. This was not, as some argued, an inevitability. Ifc was brought aboufc by the foot of fche restriction and limitation placed on such borrowing. By regulating it, the colony acknowledged ifcs liability. They should not tie down the provinces in any way. In what did this over-

ruling wisdom of the House consist ? Were fche same men wiser when they sat in' the House than in fche Councils? On fche contrary, public opinion was much more watchful there. For the Houae to lecture fche Councils on such a point, waa like one who had lost all virtne lecturing on virtue. This provision, requiring the Assembly to determine the character of fche security to be given, should bo taken out of fche bill. As to fche special rating clauses, they were inapplicable fco the circumstanoes of the colony, where works were required to be made through unoccupied districts. (Applause). Mr WHITE would support the bill. He would prefer, however, a bill which he had drawn out fchafc morning, which he had in manuscript; before him. Ifc was entitled the Distempered Provincial Governments Borrowing Extinguishing Acfc. Ifc provided that members of the Government only should introduce loan bills. Some other clauses followed. Ifc closed with penal clauses, making the "crime" on the part of any membei introducing a borrowing bill, without fche sanotion of fche Provincial Council, should be punishable as treason. (Laughter.) The SPEAKER interposed that the hon member was nofc debating fche measure. Mr WHITE thought that what he said bore more closely on it than most of the remarks of previous speakers. Mr YOGEL, in replying, said that the objections made to the bill were very varied. Every member took the opportunity of bringing forward his pet grievance. The objections had consequently to a large extent answered themselves. The fact was that the bill had not met fche views of any extreme section of the House. This was its best recommendation. On Mr Gillies' speech he said thafc for him it was not as a rule in bad taste. There was one exception, however, in his reference to himself, as wishing to kick down the ladder by which he had risen, because he made some allusion to exaggerated stories circulated by certain newspaper writers. He was not at all ashamed of the fact that; his profession had been fchafc of a journalist;. There were, however, journalists and journalists, as there wero Superintendents and Superintendents.' He placed no faith in the theory of fche Opposition being broken up. Their breaking up was a mere artifice to gain recruits, Mr Gillies had endeavored to persuade them that the land in fche North Island hud nofc risen in value. Ib was more saleable, he admitted, bufc seemed to think that was owing to the verdancy of South Island capitalists, Mr Wood's speech was an excellent comment on fchafc of Mr Gillies, showing, as ifc did, that Auckland province was suffering from the fact of being under a very bud Government. Wben they came to look ot other parte of the North Island they found them prosperous. There was Hawke's Bay, a vory prosperous portion nofc only of fche North Island, but of the colony. New in duatries were being established. The people ] were growing wealthy, and there was a considerable sum to the credit of the provincial account. Taranaki was also prospering. Wellington could surely nofc be called deficionfc in prosperity. The Provincial Government deserved all credit for their management. They opposed the Government in the House, but drew a line between their political opposition and their provincial duties. As did also Mr Rolleston, perhaps the mosfc malignant opponent of the Government in the Houbp, who, however, after one of his most vehement speeches, would very properly come.'witLoufc hesitation, to the Government fco ask them to attend fco some local work. The Superintendent of Wellington, who, though nofc a eup-* porter, was nofc a vindictive opponent, would do the same. Mr Gillies, however, would not acfc in this manner. He quoted certain instances with the view of showing the difficulties which the Government experienced in dealing with him. Mr Wood came next, and lectured on the evils of the provincial system of government. If he wenfc aboufc the colony lecturing on fchafc subje^ he should take Mr Gillhs with him as the " frightful example" (laughter). He wished Mr Stafford had been present, as he wished fco thank him on behalf of the House for the very careful speech wifch which he had favored them. In reference to his criticism on their making barren trunk lines, he would like to know what it mea_fc. With the exception of the Kaipara railway, which was a mistake forced on them by erroneous representations, there was no railway in any purfc of fche country which could take any better direction than had beon taken. He knew of no parfc of fche country in which ifc was felfc thafc their railways should have token a different direction. Much had been made of the change of policy as brought down in the Budget. The Budgets brought down by the hon member when in office had undergone greater alterations. They had been referred to select committees which, afc any rate, his (Mr Vogel's) Budgets had nofc. In reference to Mr Steward's remarks ob to the supporters of the Government nofc having been consuls d before the change of policy was decided on, ifc was a wrong position to take up. The Government could not be expected to decide its policy on the suggestions of its supporters Afc any rate, this bill was drawn out months before. With reference to Mr Johnston's remark that he had seen a statement circulated that fcwo members of fche Ministry intended to appoint themselves to offices in ths Civil Service, was entirely incorrect. Mr Bathgate had rendered fche appointment of a Commissioner of Stamps unnecessary, having done fche work gratuitously. He had certainly no intention of taking thafc office. If Mr Bennett- retired from fche Registrar-General-ship, thafc office would be conferred on another officer in the service. In reference fco Mr Webster's observations, he said that owing to his old offeefcion for that gentleman he had nofc been able to participate iv the fun fche other night, when the members had been laughing afc him, though he thought they had been laughing wifch him. He bad certainly no right to use such an expression as " hungry woIvob" in regard to other members (hear, hear). He would find more hungry wolves among those wifch whom he was now acting. He wondered whether ifc was fche case, for instance, thut they had succeeded in corrupting the pure and mobile nature of the hon member for Rodney. (Laughter.) He went into calcu- I lotions fco Bhow that" the indebtedness and taxation of New Zealand bore much lees heavily on the population generally than in the United Kingdom and other European countries. The Government were accused on the one hand of using their strength unfairly to force the bill through fche House, and on the other of weakness in altering ib on pressure being brought to bear. The truth was they had done their duty. (Hear, hear.) The comparisons made between himself and some of his colleagues had been invidious and in bad taste. A stronger Government could not be formed, he believed. The moderation of the Native Office hod staved off war. Had Mr Stafford's Government of last year continued in office, war, he f It as certain as he was standing there, would have e-jsued. Mr Gillies, before fche session, had criticised much Mr M'Lean's action in reference to Waikato matters, but he had nofc dared to come down to the House and challenge it. Mr Richardson's management of fche Publio Works Department was uuivorsally acknowledged, Dr Pollen hod a knowledge of fche affairs of the colony generally possessed by scarcely anyothermember of either House. Mr Bathgate had brought down on himself fche antagonism of fche legal profession by devoting himself to the task of law reform. Mr O'Rorke had tuken an office, fche difficulties ot which were very greafc, and had performed them successfully. To Mr Reynolds was due the reform of fche tariff. He had paid such a degree of attention to the details of his office as had seldom been paid by any member. His native colleagues had lent their invaluable service in smoothing over difficul with the Maori race. There were nofc a dozen members in the House who had been elected Ito oppose the Government. They had ad-

> hered to the broad features of fcheir policy i throughout, and had deviated very slightly from them. The bill was read a second time on the i voices without a dissentient; voice, i The House adjourned afc 2.30 a.m.