HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXII, Issue 2567, 5 September 1867, Page 4

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

' TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 3. Tho Speaker took the chair at two o'clock. PETITION. Mr COX presenlod a petition from about 600 inhabitants of Tinmru and Gladstone, praying that the House will give it? most favorable consideration to any bill brought before it, having for its object the establishment of a system of local* sclf-governmonts in those districts, that will harmonise in its powers and operation with the existing provincial institutions. Tho petition was ordered to lio on the table. PAPERB. The following papers wero laid on tho tablo : — Statements of sums received and expended in each province under the Debtors and Creditors Acts ; also, of sums received ami expended under the Stamp Duties Act ; returns showing tho amount of debentures in circulation under tho Loan Acts, 1863-4-5, and what debentures have been negotiated since tho end of July, 1866 ; Memorandum by the Secretary of Customs on the progress of illicit distillation and smuggling ; papers relative to the Paris Exhibition ; plant of the military settlements on the Upper Waikato ; report on nutivo schools. KKPOIITB OF PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE. ; Mr C. WILSON brought, up the report of the Public Petitions Committee on the petition of Qeorgo St. Oeorge, of Taranuki ; also, on the petition of Mauihera Rangitawa ho ; aso, on the petition of 273 colonists of Dunodin ; also, on the petition of Henry Churton. PEOTECTION OF CEBTAIN ANIMALS COMMITTBK. On the motion of Mr Muhison, ten days' extension of time was grunted to this committee for bringing up their report. TELF.GHAPH COMMITTKE. On tho motion of Mr Tuaveus, sevon days' extension of lime was granted to tho Telegraph Committee to bring up their report. BLUFF AND SVIKTON KAILWAY COMMITTEE. This Committee was also granted ten days' extension of titno. AGKICULTUUAL AND PASTOUAL STATISTICS COMMITTEE. Mr CAMPBELL brought up the report of tho Agricultural and i'axtorul Statistics Committee. UNiVEiisrry scholarships committee. ' Mr JO L LIE brought up the report of tho University Scholarships Committee on. Mr tiiw moods' petition, '

3tXHJ.TtIB& AS© IU.KD iJOOIETISa ACS AUS2tl>3c'sMV l The Hon. J. 0^ KIUKMOND, In mating jthe second reading of thii Bill, isrid it; Iras a tott jmalland toarmleßSOne,- and was eirpply intended to legalise- a course which; had been pursued by,, many Building and Land Bociofctes in' 'the 'colony, of admitting minors as members. ' , The Bill was read a second time. ' BAST COAST XANfi TITLBB INVESTIGATION HIED. ; s. - The Hon. J. 0. RICHMOND moved the sepond reading of this Bill, and said its object was tf&fching more than to. curry out the Act of last session, that contained two clauses' of which one narrowed its operation, and the other almost nullified it. He would propose that the discussion upon the. Bill sbotild be taken on the motion for going into. Committee; but if the hon. member for the Buy of Islands objected to the second reading, he would make further explanations. „ , Mr CARLETON said he could not venture to vote for the second reading of the Bill unleßß good reasons were shown for his doing so. The Hon. J. 0. RICHMOND , would then explain that the colony was pledged to find, location for about 150 meu in the district to which the Bill referred. The Act last session was drawn up in accordance with the opinion of the Chief Judge of the Native Lands Court, and was intended to avoid some of the more difficult clauses of the New Zealand Settlements Acts. It was necessary to find land for 150 military settlers; and an agreement had. been made with, the friendly natives that the land should be brought under the operation of the Native Lands Court,, but the agroement must be validated by an Act before it could have any effect. If the Bill were thrown out, the Government would lose the money they had laid out in surveys, as the rebel natives would put in their claims ; and a claim for compensation might be made by the military I settlers. The New Zealand Settlements Act gave much more sweeping powers to the Governor in ! Council than this Bill would give ; and an exact block, for confiscation would be defined. He would move the second reading of the Bill. , Mr Q-. GRAHAM had not had time to look at the Bill ; but more disgraceful acts than the New Zealand Settlements Aot and the Act which. this Bill was intended to repeal never appeared upon the journals of the House. This was a matter, that interested Souther)! as well as Northern members ; for; if this Bill were passed, it would be necessary to maintain a standing army. Members should pause before thoy made this, country a second Ireland, and such bills as this would be the way to do so. No more eeriou* charge could be brought against the men whoso land it wub proposed to take than that they had taken up arms to defend themselves against the troops we Bant against them. He would oppose the second reading of this Bill. Mr UARLETON thought they could scaroely enter into a full discussion on this matter that day. His own impression was that the Bill could not do any good ; but if good and sufficient reasons were shown for its passing, ho would vote for its second reading. There was an important principle underlying the Bill; and he hoped the Government would give the House time to think the matter over. He would move the adjourn* ment of the debate till Thursday. The adjournment- was agreed to. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The debate on Mr Vogujl's amendment to the motion for going into Committee of Supply was robumed by Mr JOLLIE, who &aid he did not intend to address the House at any length ; but the occa-. sion was too important for him, alter the viewa he had expressed last session, to refrain from say*, ing a few words upon the subject. Whatever, might be the different opinions entertained respecting the financial proposals of the Crorernnieiit, it could not bo denied that the Treasurer's, statement was a masterly ono. It was a very, satisfactory thing to know at least that the bank overdraft had been entirely paid off. The amount which it was exhibited as being overdrawu when he left office was £75,000, and this amount had been repaid. Immediately on assuming office, he enquired about the trust and intestate estate funds, and was informed that a sum had been set apart and lodged in the bank to repay them. He mentioned this in justice to himself. The £11,000 said to have been taken out of the balance of the loan was on account of Treasury Bills of 1864, but it appeared to him that as the Colonial Tresurer had not iucludod that sum in the Supplej me nt my Estimates last year, ho need not have alluded to it. He 'would now refer to the manner in which the £100,000 worth of debentures had been advanced to the Superintendent of Auckland. He should assume that all those debentures had been spent except £7000 worth, which were returned to the Colonial Treasury. It was not often that so luminous and fair a statement was given to tho country as that made by tHe Colonial Treasurer, but still it was often not easj to understand such a mass of figures. He believed, however, that it contained a fair statement of the affairs of the colony, which were not in ao glowing a condition as some hon. members seemed to imagine. It appeared that under the head ordinary revenue there was a deficit of £35,176 on the past financial year. He assumed that this formed part of the £183,000 owing by the provinces. Then, as to the loan account. The extraordinary ways and means of tho past financial year were £315,489 ; and the actual extraordinary expenditure £282,370, an apparent excess of revenue over expenditure of £33,119, which would bo very satisfactory if it were veal. But. the fact was, there was a little want of clearness on this matter, and the House would understand that these extraordinary ways and means had not been realised, and were short by all that amount of debentures which Mr Whituker had not returned to lie Government. The result would be a Jeficit on this account of nearly £60,000 ; and if the HOU6O would turn to extraordinary expenditure, they would find thai tho expenditure on tho Cook's Strait Cable, estimated at £38,000, was onlj £14,000, leaving nearly £24,000 to be met at some time or other. Tho Houee would understand, therefore, that the £25,000 worth of Treasury bills remaining in the hands of tho Government would have to be applied to this or some othor exigent purpose. He had already by his " Hear, bear's " expressed his belief that every member of the Government had done his best to keep down the expenditure ; and a reference to the Estimates passed last year would show that retrenchment must hare been I pushed to the utmost extent. Had the sums included in the Appropriation Act, tho issuo on account of refunds, and the extraordinary expenditure been all expended, the expenditure would have been £1,400,000, an excess over the revenue of £123,000. The £23,000 would have been Govered by the Treasury bills, but there would have practically remained a deficit of £100,000. Last year hi brought forward a motion in order to shew to the House and country tho n ecessity of not grant ing such large votes either for the service of the Government or for the provinces, and the necessity for this course hud been shown. There were various propositions scattered up md down the Treasurer's statement. ; but the priueipil were, first, the relinquishaicnt. of theconli^outod lands to the provinces. Dpon these tho country had lavished a great deal of money, and thoy wore tho only tangible result we had obtained from a lar^e and expensive war, except establishing some sort-, of peace and or«er. lie hud formerly felt that they might, be given over to the provinces, and although it wa» now proposed that they should be handed over to the provinces with all the improvements, he still had, no great objection t.o r,ho scheme. He should be "quite prepared to give over tho confiscated land find the allocated debt to the provinces if it could bo ehown to him that the provinces absolutely

• "^ J«tf"*»'w *» 'MUM when the t^pTwaTErought before the House in-*he,sh«4pffj<>f.afciU[ or resolutions, --but mew* while, he w *« joljytfiTUf. tfl=.alafae hhneelf t* wipip" off the^aflpcated debt. .. The allocated loan ! inight'be more fairly, distributed ; as , the ; ,i#mey had been expended in a very wasteful time, and the provinces might be entitled to a reduijtixm. With regard to Auckland, if she could not pay her share, it might be expedient to, wipe ..& oft The whole colony must be considered^; dutres» was not confined to the North; wid ,&ow*» scarcely fair to, take the debt off ; the, North in order to put upon the South a proportionately greater burden. The Government also" proposed to give the £183,000 to the provinces. which, the i tables allowed to' be owing bythe provineesto the : colony. He was more surprised at this gift than at i the two to which he had referred, Properly speak--1 ing, this sum should be available for our'neceaw* j ties ; aid he wanted to know what hafi beepme .of it and why it had been given. OfoourtW the ! provinces were part of the colony ; but ih the 1 year 1865 6 they received from all soufcflßv^xehi* I sive of municipal rates, £1;223,00C, and; : yM there 1 was now £183,000 to their debit on the ! books. He supposed in this case necessity would plead for the proposal of his hon. friend^being [ carried out ; and it would probably be .hopeless !to oppose it ; but the colony was being sacrificed | for the benefit of its members. Ihese giftsrepre* •sented debts for -the colony; in proportion at i they gave away money, so did^they incur liabili* 1 ties. - Then it was proposed to give the pfoVihoet I one half of the revenue. He should certainly op* I pose giving them so large a sum. In' thej sity of the country they were not called upon to do anything of this kind. Let the province* receive this year one-half of the Customs; , The various loan charges of the provinces he estimated to be £190,000 ; if the Government were to pro* pose to give the provinces a sufficient loan to cover the oharges on the loans it would be a very large amount ; but, although he would give them a sum. for the purpose, they had also a prior claim upon the Government for police and gaol charges, whiqh might amount to some £100,000. No doubt' the' Government in making their proposals, had taken into consideration the fact that the financial affairs of the.northern provinces were in bucli a condition as to mate the most ample assist* ance necessary ; but the condition of the colony gave the South Island a right to ask that sums disproportionate to their wants should not be' given to the North. With regard to the consolidation of provincial loans, he would simply « say that he believed the House would give-JthVGo* vernment a cordial support. There' 1 was also a very unnecessary gift proposed' to* ; ' l be given to the provinces of the profit that nii'ght 1 be derived from this consolidation, which ought to go to the colony. He feared last year-that'the Treasury Sills were but the beginning of a- fjktk loan ; and it now appeared that the Government did not intend to meet them out of the revenue—the understanding upon which the Bill uuder fh© authority of which they were issued was passted. He would not support a proposal to issue fresh debentures under the Loan Act of 1863 ; but would be prepared to consider any proposal for, a fresh loan, though he should not assent to more, borrowing without 1 "hesitation. Instead of "borrowing,,., we ought to 1 deduce our expenditure ans live within our means. Ho regtetted that there was to be, no reduction of taxation; recollect ing the „ whole scope of the statements of the Government, both last 'session and this, he looked to the announcement ua a great calamity. Reduction ofttaxation , was "a ; pressing 'necessity, and he hoped thejretwa* an appeamiice of finality in the finuniee of;the country,' and that there would be no more borrowing. : Unless 'there was some urgent necessity -for maintaining it, the taxation ought to come dawn, and the Gbvernmohfc ought to bo conduct affairs as to i dp shortly able to do with the Customs duties alone, and manage so that, they should ibo able io aid the provinces iv those duties with : which the colony was concernod, and leave- them to raise any further money they might want^by local taxation, with which the Assembly, should not interfere except as to the mode. He admitted, because ho thought it unavoidable, that a reason* able provision should be made for the purposes of defence. He would say npfchingabout Mie£4s,ooofor contingent defence>,butthought£lo9,oootoo large a sum for defence. There should be a strong body of men, under good command, always available for active , Bprvice; but £109,000 was too much for that' purpose, and be should oppose it. A body of r 3ooinen, well officered, would not cost more than £(10,000, and this sum should be taken out of the . revenue, not charged upon loans. He disagreed altogether with the Colonial Treasurer's remarks respecting the land fund. It appeared to him that the provincial system -had been tried and found wanting, and that the time hud almost come when that system must either cease of itself or have a termination put to it. The proposals of tha Government appeared .to have theobjectof procrastinating the time when the provinces would cease to exist. > He. believed- tho provinces would get deeper and deeper into difficulties, and would be obliged to go to, th,e Colonial Treasurer and ask* him to put their position before the House. The system, when initiated, had the seeds of discord and an early dissolution, unless it dragged down the General Government with itself. There had beßn throughout a want of due control of the provincial system on the part of those who were the natural controllers of it ; in* terference had- taken place at ! wrong ••times 1 '; and when great evils arose, it was found impossible' to apply the proper checks. These things being so, he trusted that whatever might be the fate' 6f the proposals, financial or otherwise, of the Government, both the Government and the Hoiiee would not omit the opportunity when it presented itself, to apply themselves to giving the provinces a better system of administration than ,they possessed at present. The hon. gentleman concluded his speech by reading an extract from the financial statement of Mr Fitzherbert in 1865. (Chaera). Mr CARGILL said tho present system of accounting was so complex that it caused great discontent tiiroughout the colony, as people could not understand the state of the colonial finances. He heartily approved of the Government proposals, as they were exhibited in the Bills brought down. The Eevonues Act would bo a great improvement upon the present bV9temJ The item of £109,000 for Defence was an ugly ono ; and it would be a bitter pill for the couiitry to swallow. It was a pity that Defence should bo mixed up with the Three Million Loan. It was said last session that the North Island was willing' and anxious to take upon itself the cost and management of defence and native affaire ; and that if they were allowed to do ed, wars would entirely cease. If the North Island were willing to take over those departments, he believed overj -. Middle Island member would agree to it. He should very much like to know where the £183,000 said to be clue by tho provinces could posufely have come from. Ho did not see the justice of : tho proposed settlement of the debt ; the solution ' of the matter seemed to bo that the provinces of Otago and Southland should pay £31,000 to the Nonh Island. This pretended debt ought to be looked into by the House. He should like to know what would have been the position of tbo colony hud it not been for tho Customs revenue received from Otago in 1861, 1862, 1863, and 1864. The province of Otago had greatly benefit ted the General Government, and vow it was asked to add to the benefit. A more pleasant way if settling the mutter would be this : The Colonial Treasurer proposed to do a little bill ; let this amount be added to the little bill he was about to draw. He bettered the Wold Ministry proposed tfiat the hiilunue of tho £3,066,000, loan ; should be applied to tho extinguishment of pro- : vinciul indebtedness. He could not be expected to swallow all the fiaanoial proposals oiftU* Qto+

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--vermnent with this charge against the pro Tinces attached to it; and- there would bi much discontent in the colony if a new loan wen raised, and no reduction of taxation took placo He believed the provinces would be willing t( ■accept tmch a share of tho revenue as would corei their loan charges, and the cost of gaols imc police. What the people desired was not that tin House should fight about provincialism and cciv tralism, but that they should reduce the taxation It was well worthy the attention of the House whether ono administration might not do lor the province, of Wellington instead of two. Ift believed if the House wero to ask the Colonii,: Treasurer to reduce tho expenditure by £100.000, he would re-appear iw a week with a far more satisfactory set of Estimates. Mr tIKAPHY said the hon. member for Gladstone did not appear to have read tho financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer with the care and attontion he usually gave to such subjects, for had he done so, ho would have seen that hall the sum of £109,000 act down for Defence was for liabilities, and therefore not a recurring charge. ISo doubt tho hon. gentleman's view as to tho expenditure under tho allocated debt having )>een expended at war rates was perfectly correct, but thi3 expenditure hud taken place under peculiar -circumstances. So far as the .province of Auckland was concerned, £110,000 was spant in .©lacing militiamen and military settlers upon their land. The hon. geutlenr.m then entered into details of the expenditure, which he said had not boon for the permanent benefit of tho province, as many of the military settlors had left tho colony, many of the surveys made were quite useleas, roads and bridges had been destroyed, and xnoreover, it was scarcely in accordance with English constitutional practice to chargo people with money who had had no voice in its sxsponditure. Had the military scheme been a success, and advantages had accrued commensurate with the outlay, Auckland would not have been in a position to aak for a remission of tho allocated debt. Mr RICYNOLDi regretted that he could not give the Government a general support on their financial policy. The Government, ought to have come down in tho early part- oi' tho ses.tion with a ■Snancial policy, upon which t.lie House could . have ba=od its legislation. There were but two of the proposals of any use; and unless a reduction of taxation took place, there would bo much dissatisfaction. It was generally understood, when the Three Million Loan Act was passed, that that was to be tho last of the colony's borrowing ; «,nd much dissatisfaction would ensue if a loin were raised. If the Government wero to insist upon tho provinces recouping the money^ the; •had borrowed, thero would be.- no necessity for l " u "*B2 a new loan. After deducting tho emu *mn ™« 7 'V^ bv _ tho Homo Government, tlio £100,000 lent toTfc, c «....a, on(i tlu , £40 ,000 overalloeatea debt, there would still be ov o »- yooa.OOO available as a colonial asset. After tho Treasury bills had been redeemed, there would still remain s largo sum to the credit of the colony. It might be inked, how he would get hold of this? ■He would, when the provincial loans were being consolidated, charge this sum to tho provinces. The hon. gentleman then pointed out how savingcould be made, in order to reduce taxation. The Estimates could be reduced by some £65,000 • (The hon. gentleman explained in dutad tho mode •iy which this saving could bo effected.) Ho would not divide the revenue equally between tho provinces and tho General Government; tho proper mode to adopt would be that suggested by the hon. member for Christchurch, to give a capitation allowance, including the natives with ! iihe .Europeans in estimating the population of the respective provinces. If 255. a- head were given, the provinces would receive £305. L<l-2, ■and llius a considerable saving would be effected upon the Treasurer's estimate. It was necessary : to rejjard the taxation of the colony belore the and the taxation must be reduced. So long as the provinces received one-half of the revenue, so long would tho taxation be' kept up. Under the scheme propounded by tho General Government, combinations would bo formed in tlie House to keep down tho provincial chargn->-fio wuch as to reduce the edlciency of the depart-•-mentfis while the general charges would be kept ; up as much as possible. Mr KERR, in reply to a remark made by the last speaker, said Auckland did not intend U> repudiate, its debt. Tlio expenditure of the allo--cated loan had not prove 1 of any permanent advantage to Auckland. The province had not benefit ted hy the war ; although a few merchants and con ■tractors hai benefitled, the bulk of tin* settler*hud not. He would ask tho Southern membeiv whether, for the sake of the whole war expenditure, they would undergo the sufferings which the. Auckland and Tamnaki settlers had experienced. The Auckland settlers would bo perfectly willing to submit their case to a commission of enquiry. He would request tha attention of the Southern •members to the fact that Auckland contributed 'to tho extinction of native title in the South Island, and thus freed that island from the nuisances of native war. He approved of th: Snancial policy of the Government generally, and should vote for it. (In reply to a Suut.ieru member) Mr Kcrr said Auckland would be willing In take over the management of the natives, and fight 'Sheir own battles. i The Hon. J. C. RICHMOND said he wished to recall a few general considerations which appeared to have been entirely overlooked by tvv.. or three hon. members, wlio generally took the same view of matters in the eunio light as the Government. It was, of course, painful for the Government to listen to tho reproaches of the hon. jnembers for Selwyn and Nelson ; but those hon. snembers appeared to have been led away by an overstrained analogy bttween an old established country like Great Britain and a young country like New Zealand, wlk>sc institutions were scarcely formed. No such state of things existed hero an at homo; tho Legislature was divided into small parties, having conflicting interests, and it was no use for any Government to attempt to carry ■any measure by considering one party alone. The position of the colonial party jhad always been that of a ship laboring in a storm, thankful to make a little headway when it had a chance ; and it was the duty of the Government to make such compromises as would meet with the acceptance of all parties. Of course, in doing so, radical principles must not bo lost, sight of. Compromises Tvero more especially necessary in tlio case oC finance ; and standing there as the representatives -of the colonial party, the Government ought mot to bo charged with trying to buy vole•because they proposed to relieve the preying necessities of cortain parts ol tho colony It being the du'y, then, of tho Government to snake some sovt of compromise, t.he question was, 3io\v far had they succeeded in carrying it out ? It had been proposed last session that there should he a sort of armistice in that House ; and tho great battle of the ultimate constitution of lh« <country left to be settled out of doors. It wa-t siot the duty of th« Government to interfere with ?the settlement of this matter byihe people. He beSieved the little sum paid for reporting tho debates ■would be a "thousand times repaid by the means that would bo ufforded to tho people of forming their own opinions on tlio constitutional change ■which was impending. It was not tho duty of the Government to precipitate tint chango until a declaration had been made by the people. JS'o •doubt this financial proposals were connected with this question j aa tlio eonauiuti mat change rteponded, to v great extent, upon tho finance of tlw «olony. The Government quite concurred with the principles laid down by the hon. members hi lia4 referred to. It was most unfortunate that the provinces should have been nursed in the \a\ ©f luxury ; had they been, forced to provid^ foi *heir own resources, they would have been in i ■much better position than they are at jy«s<mt

i. He thought tho charge of want of franknoss made 0 against tho Colonial Treasurer was uajuat; for it c must be remembered that the financial stiitement i. w.w very widely read, and it was thoreforo neefisj saryto'be c.vveful, in order tint no misunderr standing might arise. Ho believed that the lion. 1 member for Bruce* was right in saying that the j financial policy of the Government would not - sustain the provincial institutions for any length of time. Thfi constitution of tho country absoj lutely precluded any finality in finance. Tho hon. ; member for Selwyn had, perhaps, a little over- > stated the gloomy state of tho finances, although 1 it wis gloomy enough. The Government wished , i to give rather more than fair play to provincial 5 ' institutions; thry wished to handicap them, if i anything, in the race taking placo between them . j and the General Government. Tho Revenues [ I Bill consisted of two very different parts— a j ' very elaborate piece of administrative machinery, , ! which, ho whs glad to find, had been accepted at f. its true value; the other part proposed to give a i i definite portion of the revenue to tho provinces. , i The question was 7iot whethor any particular sum, '. ! but whether a definite sum, should be given to \ ! tho provinces. Tho Government did not look ; upon it as a device to maintain the partnership ' hetw.'fiii the General and Provincial Governments, as if already existed. They had not proposod to deprive the provinces of all share of tho general ' rovenue ; i'or if they had done so, they would havo Ihilcd i^noniiniously. (No, no. Hear, hear.) Tht G'jTiirnmon'-. had certainly bought tho votes of some lion members, by not proposing an im- ! practicable scheme. (Laughter.) Thorewasono I mon«ter got rid of. by the proper adjustment of the accounts betweon tho General and Provincial Governments. If the hon. member for the city of Duuediu could induce a majority of tho House to support tho capitation allowance, the Government would be very grateful to him ; but in such a cm 1 , there would be ono of tho divisions to -which ho hud alluded coming on. Then, an to the statement that tho proposals of tho Government would Ciiu-ie the House to starve the local charge*, that was only a proper objection, and I obtained with double force against the present system of a surplus. The Government would edge a little up to windward by gottitig rid of the surplus. Then, with regard to the proposal to ramit the allocated debt. There was a strange o infusion of parties in the House, but in oni." respect, the House very much resembled the kingdom of Heaven — there werealwaj's fire wise virgins with oil in their lamps, and five in a destitute condition. If tha province of Canterbury wero eivr to fail into tire sime position us Auckland now occupied, ho was sure tin Northern people would sli'»w thai, th^y were not forgetful ol 1 any liberality tli.it might, be extended to them. The provinces of tho North Island, with tho exception of Wellington, wore in such a position that- they would tju unable to carry on unless the a! located debt w-re. lvmitted. Then as to tho provincial debt of £183,000. His hon. friend the number for delwyn deemed to think that ho had hit upon a way to g it. rid of this de.bt by suggesting that tho £2!it)OJJ should bo placed in the consolidated lo.u. But tho money must be ruiru'd aoine way or other ; and if tho Bouse did not approve of the Loan Act of 1863 beirisj strolehtn], perhaps the hon. gentleinsvn's p:\jpo-ul would bo »<? tfiol a& any other, and would carry out his principle of local taxation. Unless t!o:no change took place, tho land rovenue of Canterbury would not. be very large this year. A paper lie hold in his hand showed that if the proposals of the G.ivorument wero carried into Hffect, tho province of Auckland would have only 66000 or £700 ) available for appropriation this yen 1 ; Taranaki, a, balance of JElOOi), out of which siho would have to provide for e;a)ls and police ; Uawlco's Bay would have £3000 to the good ; Wellington w.is in a happer condition, and vronl I have £27.0J0 ; tho .Nelson balance would be £32,000 ; of Marlborough ho was niui >le to ascertain tin; balance ; Canterbury would be able to get £47,000; and Ot,ago, £30,000; Southland would of course havo a nogalivo quantify to receive. It did appear to him that the Government had done no more in any case, nn.l not in some cases, to enable the- Provincial Givernmenls to go on until the colony had had t.imo to discuss the question. With regard to the bi-sc way in which a sinking fund could bo invested, it. would de.pendtoanre.it extent upon t.he ability of tho persons to whoso in umgoinent it might be entrusted. A good deal Iml been sai.l alioub the proposal to make a fresh issue of ■lobo'ituros under the Three Million Loan Art, and a wry unjust, comp irison had been made with the case of tin? Dovor and Chatham railwjv. But there was no comparison between the circs. L'lm Legislature when it passed tlio Act. did not limit the House from raising another loan. No priority whatever hail been given to tho holders of the bonds issued under the Loan Act of 18b"3 [Mr Curtis remarked that lie did not state there had.] In th it case, the debenture holders had im riglu.to oompliui if more money was borrowed. He utterly denied thai there was the slightest possi >ility of any fraud being committed upon the bondholders if a fresh i6-ue were male. As to tht? example being followed by tho provinces, the Provincial Loan Ordinances were framed in n dilfeivnl manner to the Three Million Loan Act. Several hon. members had prayed for remission of fixation. If the Government could see any probability of tlio House following them, they would be only too happy to go into tho matter : but the real obstacle was the extreme provincia pirty. A public opinion on these matters w.i~ ueginiiing to dawn, and the Government were hippy t» see it. Ho regretted to «cc the notices of amendments burdening the table on tlio pro. sen: occasion ; and the supporters of the Government ought to support them on the O'ftisiou, fo." alth >ugh the Government were not over sensitive an I could not ape the practice of Governments of vi jre populous countries than New Ze da. id, yet :he rejection of a ni ition forgoing iut>> Committee of Supply was a heavy defeat to any G ivernment Mr iVioORHOUcili) Slid tho lion. member's ronf-vsion vrus tantamount to ono that the Go Ttsm-nont were, not very fond of a principle, but very f nul of offi -c ; and that confession m ule him t,remble for the provinces. It had boon foreshadowed out in the Colonial Treasurer's speech, and h<* should Lake it for granted that the hou gout lonian thought the provinces uselosa exeresonctjs and ought to be cut off. From this viow li • altogether dissented. It was a very singular f.ici that tho 110,11* member for Nelson, who had beo-i elected on the understanding that ho woul I do all ho could to wipe tho provinces from tho colony, had made a speech identical in tone with that of the hon. member for Soiwyu ; and if tho suggestions of tho hon mombf'i's for Solwyn and Nelson woro combined with tin) proposals of tha Colonhl Treasurer, th provinces would bo destroyed. The country u-t dorstood the abject* of tho Government, and thero was a strong determination outside that th--I question which h-ul ooon ahirkod th'w session — a-< to whether the provinces should exist or not — t*hiM,ld bo deeidod next session. If tho province were to continue to exist, they mu-»t hare snlfi cient given them to sub ist respectably. Wathe credit of the colony to bo nude worse, uy public'y exhibiting tho insolvent staio of the p ■<)- -1 vinees ? if the Government proposa's were n»i , carried out, the province of Auckland mutt bticom; insolvont. Were tho provinces to be thrown upon their own resources, they would be eoni- ' polled to tax tho puople, and thus become odiou-. I 'Jlhote w.i* a. nuoJ d.-al in. the objection that ha i been made aa to entirely closing ae.-ounts wall II tho North. It might be advantageous if Mie ', nucossary advances were made by tho Govurn- } me.rit and the aoi;ountd loft open ; the liabilities could then be liquidated when Auckland was in a bettor p >sitiou than at present. Then as to *c- ! ducing tho Custom* duties with a viuv to imuosa . direct Uxatiou ; such a, oourso would be ruinous

I of Auckland, as a largo portion of its populatioi was composed of natives, upon whom no direc taxes could be levied. If the Government wen to attempt to take the territorial revenues, th< provinces of Otago and Canterbury would rice U a wan. So Boon as tho condition of the whol< colony vras such as to admit of a uniform reduction of indirect taxation, ho would bo very glad to sco tho Customs duties reduced ; but until that was the case, it was his duty to tell the poorer part of the population that however much he might regret their having to pay such heavy Customs duties, ho could not vote for direct taxation. With regard to the inconsistencies of tho Government, he confessed that they wero in an embarrasßing position ; for although he would bo willing to turn them out of office to-morrow if ho could thoroby gain tho acceptance of his views, yet ho know ho could not do so ; and if the Government wore to resign, there would be no one to fill the breach. Mr ADAMS did not wish to give a silent voto. Ho quite agreed with tho observations made by the hon. member for Selwyn with regard to tho proposod first issue of debentures under the Three if dlion Loan Act ; but ho could not agree With the views held by the Commissioner of Customs; and tho Government if they did isssuo the debentures, would injure the credit of tho country. Bat apart from this question, tho country was so burdoned that vro should do without borrowing at all, if possible. If thoy tfent on borrowing, the loan charges would bo more than tho community could bear ; at present tho loan charges wero frightful. He much regrettGd that tho Colanial Treasurer did not hold out any hopo of a reduction of fclioso Custom-* duties which wero so very burdensome to tho settlers. If tho colonists know what these Customs duties really wero, they would not bo borne so quietly ; and ho should like to see them greatly reduced, especially upon tho nocessuries of life. An income tax might be substituted, and would bMh. render tho taxation more equal and ' borrowing unnecessary. The financial scheme of the Government was so different from what he and other members had expected that they could not look upon it with anything but distrust. The proposal to remit tho payment of the allocated dobfc had met, of course, with the approval of the Auckland members, but was it just to tho other provinces ? It was quite truo that tho expenditure of that allocated debt had not boon of much benefit to Auckland ; but in the South largo sums of money wore expended on the Go'dfieids in the construction of roads thatcouldboof nopormanont use, andmiinly served to increase the revenues of tho General Government. Mr BOiiLA.3IC was about to support the motion of the Colonial Treasurer. After carefully weighing the argument a, he had coma to tho conclusions that the financial scheme of tho Government was tho best way of meeting tho difficulties of the country. There were, however, one or two matters of detail to which he objected. He did not approve of tho proposal to raise & further sum of £260,000 under the Three Million Loan Act ; and would ask the llouso to consider that tho Legislature at tho time when it p issed tho Act, obviously o n!y intended that tlio country should have to repay .£3,000,003 of money. Then ho could not undoi'stund why, because ifarlhorough c >i:ld not pay its debt, it should be fixed upon Wellington and Nelson. Iftho argument was good that bo'.-iuso these provinces huid derived advantaio from tlio receipt of cortain dutios on goous consumed in Alt.r borough they ought to pay off lier debt, it was good in regard to other provinces than Wellington and Nelson, as some of the- goods consumed in Marlborough paid duty in Otago ; and goods consumed in Taranaki and WesfcLind also paid duty elsewhere. He approved of tlie remission of the great debt due by Auckland to the country, but let the Government go a little further, and wipo oft 1 the little debt due ■ by Mavlborough. No doubt an income tax might bi> useful, but when he saw the re.->ult of the stamp lax, that had simply burdened the country with another tax, he shuddered at the idea of a new tnx. He belioved th it if tho Customs duties wero reduced a larger revenue would bo derived from them. Mr G. GRAHAM s.tid five Colonial Treasurer had neon pleas d to tell thorn that in 18)6 tlio , province of Auckland sold its birthright ; but tiie Auckland people had kept sacredly to their bargain, while the House had broken it. The Auckland people had taxed themselves I'or tho purpose of miking roads, on tho supposition that i hey would derive a profit from the sale of their Wiistu lands, but the House had tiike.ii 1,000,000 of acres Irom the province. The expenditure of t.ho allocated loan had proved a curse rather thin n blessing to Auckland. tie differed from somo of I he linanciit proposals of the Government — tlie i>loD,ooi) for Defence might partly bo spent in a beiler w.iy, and th' pr.jpos.-il for a fresh ix-uio of lebeutures was objectionable; but taking the policy as a whole, it was on a firm basis, and ho would supp >rt it. Mr C. YY'LLSON considered the thanks of the House to bo iluo to the Colonial Treasurer, for ho had done an act by his financial speech that would do more good for tho colony than anything that lie had done for years; for an hou. member for O.ago li.nl uttered language stronger than had been over use. l by any centralist; and ynother hou. member (.Mr Moorliousc) had said that ultraprovincialism w^s tho height of tolly. These gentlemen could scircely now go back to provmciaiis.n. Tue sentiment that tho whole of our difficulties arose from the extravagance of Provincial Governments pervaded the whole of the Colonial Treasurer's speech. It bud been «sk< d — ho.v cuiie the money duo by tho provinces to bo paid to them ? His answer w,»s — that pro- i vincuilUm had been rampant in tint Hou.vo, an I there wero s.i.-h frequent changes of Ministry, tint all ,-orts of irregularities had occurred, and evils remained irrciuodied for years and ye.irs in consequence. Under these vircums.anees, it was v^ry bitter for him to have to say that ho thought the. Ministry altogether wrong in i.iio w^y thv\v proposed to deal with the provinces. He objeeied to tuo repeal of tho Loan Allocation Act. If any ot the provinces wero in difficulties, tho Uuudo would not, deal hardly with iliom ; let l he ileot be. aeknjvvledged, and when good limes i:«nio again, tlioso provinces could puy off the deot. It was never meant by the Assembly, when it passed the Tureo Million Loan Act, tli.it tho colony should bo tn.iuo liable for one pound more tlmii £3,000,000. lie objeotcd^to the prop.nal for a fresh issue of debentures, lie also objected to raising a loan. Tliero was no urgent neoee.sity for oa' ending the telegraph to Auckland ; aiid, moreover, until the country wan paoilied, there would always be the danger of the line ■icing destroyed by hostile natives Rather than borrow money, ho would prefer to do without more lighthouses. Would it not be possible to reduce the charge for defence P if » proper economy were practised, the colony could get on without borrowing more money. It seemrd to unit t hit tlie colony w.ib not fari-ig very woll.it p -edout, and' was tv the po.-ition of uu aged Hindoo p.irent whose sous are endeavoring to hasten hid dissolution. Mr VOJ-EL said, as he understood the point raised in the amendment to have been conceded, he might ftate, in order to avoid useless di-ciiß--ssion, t7i.it, it was his intention, at the proper time, to ask leave to withdraw it. M.r HKID thanked the Colonial Treasurer for his statement, which wa* one that all must admire., wli.uever opinion* might be entertained as <x> ttiu fiuuneta.l scheme it enunciated. As 0. whole, he approved of the policy, for_ it wa* calculated to moot flhe circumstances of the colony. It would be found, on referring to the receipts lintf yenr, that tho fulling-otfin be Estimates w»s not on items whie.h showed any retrogres-ion on the p.irt of the colony. Looking at the results, thWe wiw no reason for desponding, for the I oiMtoini rerun ue had increased. Thero was evorj

i reason to expect that the Customs would realis t tho amount estimated for this year ; for duriu 0 the last ten years there had been a steady increao c at tho average rate of £80,000 n year. Tin 3 ' formed a very good basis for the Treasurer ti b ! base his estimate upon j and those hon - | members who thought his estimate was to< 1 high, should shew reasons for that opinion I He did not think that tho fact of bankruptciei • having taken placo proved that there would b< i a decrease in tho exports this year ; and if therf I were heavy stocks in the country, it must be remembered that when large imports took plncq j tho goods were often put in bond. He was sorry . that the expense of postal services was so great. The proposals of the Government with regard to the relations between tho provinces and tho colony were statesmanlike, and ho hoped they would be carried out. Everyone would be pleased to hear that the consolidation of loans was to tuko placo. As to whether sinking funds -should be sot aside, or tho loans settled by annual redemption, these woro matters of detail. Ho was glad that the Treasurer was prepared to abandon the £183,000 due by tlio provinces ; bnfc did not approve of taking from one province to give to another. Ho was sorry (hat another loan should be proposed j but as it appeared that the financial arrangements of tho Government could not be carried out without it, ho should rote for it in the hope that it would bo the lnst. The proposal to remit tho payment of tho allocated debt was somewhat too liberal to Auckland ; the gift of the confiscated lands was sufficient, and the debt might stand over. Tho most objectionable feature in the Estimates was that of £109,000 for Defence, half of which, it was said, was for liabilities already incurred. He understood last session that all outstanding liabilities on this account had been settled. Last session it wa3 stated that a constabulary force would boa saving; andhoeould not but look upsn the sum set down for defence as enormous. £10,000 ought to be ample. He wus sorry that tho Finance Committee had not sent up a report, as it would have been a guide on the subject. Although ho did not approve of all tho proposals of tho Governing ut, yet, as he had a choice of. evils before him, ho should choose tho least, and voto for the House to go into Committee. Mr R. GRAHAM approved of tho last member's speech, except on one or two points. It was the duty of some one to point out the position into which Auckland had got, not by her own fault, but by the votes of that llouso. When tho three-million loan was agreed to, it was upon tho understanding that tho policy of vigorously proI secuting tho war should bo carried out. This had not been done, and Auckland had been in consequence plunged into her present difficulties. Had the conliscation of the land been cavried-out, j Auckland would cheerfully have accepted her share of the allocated debt, but as it had not, itwas unfair to charge her with tlio cost of usolcss wars. Auckland had a claim for compensation against tho colony for tho removal of the seat of Government. He believed there ought to be a geuoral reduction of taxation at once ; the colony was also suffering from over-legislation, and he should like to see tho colony divided into two provinces, so that thero would be only three governments instead of ten, as at present. Unless something tangiblo was done in tho way of establishing confidence and security in tho Northern Island, tho Southern Island would havo to continually pay for defence. This object could bo ell'ected by posting the regiment of Imperial troops in the' centre of, tho colony. Ho woujd support the policy of tho Government, reserving to himself the right of opposing its details. Mr WELLS could not agree with tho financial statement of the Colonial Treasurer, as a whole, for he did not think that it would have a tendency to build up pound constitutional Government. , Ho should be verj glad to go into Committee of Ways and Means, and provide amply for tho public service and credit of the colony ; but was not prepared to vote sums for tho maintenance of a double Government in the colony ; nor to ask tlie taxpayer to pay money to be epent by bodies without any control from that House. Tlie colony was burdened with far too much government, and of luo expensive a character. After providing for permanent charges, they hud a sum of over £800,000 to expend upon a population 01'2i0,000 people. This was an anonndy in government. Tho provincixl loans should bo consolidated, and tho charge Tor th • interest and sinking fund provided for; i. ut if tho provinces required uny I'urth t revenue, they ought to provide it by local taxation. Mr CARLETON moved tho adjournment of the debute, which was agreed to. BKOOMMITTXtS. Tho Gold Gelds Act Amendment Bill, and the I3riti.-h Australian AJail Service Bill, were recommitted. SALMON AND TUOUt BILL. The Salmon and Trout Bill was read a third time and parsed. SCOTCH CKCKOH LAND BALES BtLli. The Scot cli Church Lund Sales Bill wus pi\Sßod through Committee. L\XD CLAIMS AKBITRATION BILL. This Bill was read a third timo and passed. HAItIUAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The Marriage Act Amendment Bill was passed through Committee, read a third time, and passed LOCAL QKNEHAL BOAUD BILL. Mr COX moved for leave to bring in a Bill to creute a .uoil general Board for tho districts of ! Tiiuaru and Gladstone for tho expenditure of certain revenues. Leave was- given, and tho Bill read a first time. KATIVB DISTDKBANCES AT WaIMATE. Mr CvKLIiTON moved that copies of all piipers not yet produced concerning the late j Native disturbances at tlie Waimate, bo laid on tho tible of the Houso, and said ho w.is huppy to ! sny that peace was now made between the rivul hapwt, and was likely to bo permanent. Agreed to. CASK OP WALTER TKICKKB. Mr WATT moved that the petition of tho Rev. Arthur Slock, relative to the case of the convict Waiter Tricker, be referred to a Select Committee to consist of the Hon. Mr Hull, Mr Cargill, Mr I H. Graham, Mr Bunny, Mr Uaughtun, Mr J. I O'Neill, and tho Mover, with power to call for ' persona and papers. Tho motion wis agreed to. Tho House adjourned at 12.35 a.m. j ! WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 4. i r f ho Speakeii took the chair at 5 o'clock. j EXPORT OP PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE. ! MrC. WILSON brought up the report of the Public Petitions Com mil tee on the petition of j Mrs Ormsby, of Onebunga ; on tho petition of | military settler < of tho Ist Waikatos located at Opotiki ; on tho petition of George Grren, and | on the petition of 218 inhabitants of Wanganui. ! WASTB LANDS BILLS OOMtfITESB. Mr LUDLAJI brought up cho ad interim report of the Waste Lands Bills Committee. BtiBdIDIES TO MAORI SOHOJLS COMMITTEE. The Hon. J. 0. RLCEIVIOXI) moved that the House do, on Friduy next, resolve it*ell into a Committee to consider of leave to bring in a Bdl to regulate and make provision for subaidiea to Miit>vi aelioola, a.iid atitkad that tlie sum requirod would be only jfit'KX), which would ' fee| deducted from the native Estimates. J ' The motion was carried. | I i TBUBT EBTATR COMMITTEE. , The lion J. C. KICHMoNI) movpd that t } Committee be appointed to enquire into imd re r port on tho condition of educational and otfcei

c trust estates held directly under grant from the g Crown, with power to call for persons and pupera, 0 three to bo a quorum. Report to be brought up 3 in ten days. Committee to consist of Mr Adams, 3 Mr Ball, 'Mr Watt, Mr Studholmc, Mr Tancred; Mr Etankinaon, Mr Parker, Mr Ormemd, Mr > Murison, mid the mover. , j Mr TK AVERS suggested that the words " upon » ' special trusts" should be inserted after the word > "Crown." . The hon. mover signified hia willingness to ! accept the amendment, and the motion, as 1 amended, was then put and carried. ! ALLEGATIONS OF COLONEL "WEAEK COMMITTEE. Mr HEAPHY moved that the rep;rt of the Select Committeo on the allegations of Colonel > Weare, C.8., bo adopted. The address ami resolutions wero agreed to with some slight amendments. COMMISSION TO THB COLONIAL AGENT. 1 Mr JOLLLE, on behalf of Mr Morrison, moved that a return be laid on the table Bhowing the amount paid by w^y of commission to Mr Morrison for the? last fire year 9on goods shipped by him for the New Zealand Government, specifying particularly the percentage charged for the nego- : ciation of largo contracts entered into on account of the New Zdaland Government. ! The COLONIAL SECRETARY a.id the re--1 turn, if ordered, would be n nil return, as Mr Morrison roieived no commission irom the Go- ' vernment upon goods or contracts. The motion was withdrawn. NEW PLYMOUTH TOWN EXCu"ANGEB ACT 3 AMKNDMENT BILL. Leavo was given to the Hon. J. C. Richmond to bring in a Bill to amend the New Plymouth , Town Exchanges Acts. j The Bill was then introduced and read a first i time. PRE-EUFTIVE RIGHTS IN 'CANTERBURY. Mr POTTS moved for a return of all preemptive rights granted by the Waste Lands Board of the province of Canterbury, freni the 30th October, 186b', to 31st August, 1867. Tho return was ordered. NELSON, COBDKN, AND WE9TPORT RAILWAY. On the motion of Mr Curtis, the Nelson, i C.tbden and Westport Railway Land Act Amendment Bill was ordored to bo read a second time j on Thursday next. CROWN LANDS (NKLSON) LEASING BILL. Mr CURTIS moved that the Crown Lands (Nelson) Leasing Bill be ordered to be.reud a second time on 'J hursday next. Agreed tv. VALUE OF PROPERTY IN THE COLONY. Mr TRAVLCItS moved that in the opinion of this House it is expedient that at the next Census steps should bo taken to ascertain, as nearly as ( - j possible, the gross value of all properly belonging , to the European inhabitants of tho colony. , Tho motion was agreed to. , MESSAGE. < A message was receired from the Legislative < Council, announcing that they had pushed tho ' Bills of S.de Act and the Canterbury Public Re- ' serves Act; that they had made several amend- ' inents in the Coroners Act, and had adopted the ( anicnd'uents made by the House in the Friendly • Societies Act. . ' The two first- named Bills were read a first i time. ] COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. • i The debate on Mr Vogel's amendment to the motion for going into Committee of Supply was resumed by Mr CARLETON, who said that ho could not bo expected to support the proposals of the Governmsnt with any great enthusiasm, as he had last session brought forward proposals of a directly opposite nature — that the Customs revenue jj should bo devoted solely to the service of tho General Government, and if it exceeded its wants, . tho tariff should bo reduced ; that direct taxation , should be imposed by the House Lo provide for the absolute necessities of the Provincial Government a, j and if they wanted money for any other purpose, they should obtain it themselves. Still, he. Ac- j knowledged that in the present circumstances of tho country they were somewhat unpractical, and for this reason h- 1 hud not brought forward ui>y * resolutions on tho Mibjoct. Tho Hous" had always been divided into two parties— tho centralist parly and tho Suporintcndental parly ; and no Treasurer could please both; if. ho attempted to do so, ho would meet with the proverbial fate of a person eittimi between two Btools. He did ' not much like the Government scheme of finance ; it was a compromise between two parties; but there were times when a compromise became inevitable, to enable them to curry on responsible . government ; and this scheme was better than the . existing system. He could not protend to bo able to form so good an estimate of the probahl- lvoeipts from Customs as tho Government, but he feared the j Government had somewhat overestimated the rove. I nue that would bo derived from tlmt source. His opinion was, that the country would bear an increase of taxation, and that, would bo s tho best mode ol meeting ouv difficulties ; but it would not bear to be taxed much tun her by the Geuer.il Government,ths tsixationmustbeleviud by llu*Provincial Governments, who must, be coerced into doing it. He, at all event.6, was guiltless of thos • doings which had caused the necessity for an increase ol taxatiwn ; but, as it. was necessary, he was prepared to tiivo his vote for that of taxation wliich would hit. him the hardest. Me said the taxation of the country could not. be reilured retaining the provinces as they were n >w governed. I'ho expenditure of tho Government as compared with that of tho provinces, w.is economical m tho highest detrreu ; mid no reduction of taxation could take place unless the present 6ystom ol double government was put an end to. Tho cost of di-feiii-e ought not to bu provided for out of the revenue ; this hail been tried by \lr Gladstone, with an entire want of success. If they refrained from ra-<h and fuoliah experiment!), the native wai would soon come to an end, but there whh still the dregs of the war to bo wiped up ; and the cost of thiß should be paid oy posterity. The native expendiiuro ought to bo provided for on n fixed principle or ratio ; but tho only ratio upon which ho considered it could be fixed, was the ratio in wliich the natives oon'ributed to tho revenue. He recognised the necessity of making provision for provincial institutions, for the provincial >ystem could not hu put an end to until a substitute was found, for the General Government could not discharge the functions of Provincial Governments. '1 he days of p'/ovinciul institutions wero numbered ; but let them not die tho doatli of doga. Hia only complaint was that tho Q-ennml Government hud made larger provision for (he provinces than they could fairly afford. Ho did noli wish to in'/ilere with the province of the Coloaiiul Treasurer, il that hon. gentleman appeared to be cutting .: too fine. The hon. goutlinnan proposed an ab.-.>lute separation between the General Government n ; I the provinces,; if this were carried out, iho prrputual squabbles in the Hou-»e about the re -puctive claims of the provinces would bo got rid of. 1 1 o would, however, agree to the division. Ll<' >*.m very much inclined to coincide with the opinions of tho hon. member for the City of Nelson that any profit- that might arise from tho consolidation of loans ought, to go to the . colony. Tho Governuiont had gone too far in this renpect, and had misunderstood tho roul feeling of the House, which had always boon more anti-provincial than ultra-provinoial, although but a few provineiiiiista had been accustomed to ejtprees their som intents. Theeo profits ought to bd ro« tamed, becau'so the Government could keep them back if they pleased. Ho was willing to take the financial bearings of the consolidation of loans 1^ upon trubt; but with regard to the political! : hearing* of tho proposal he did not , th ink ' r that iu#ular separation would thereby become

impracticable. No man in his senses could expect that the debt owed by the provinces would ever be repaid ; and he cordially assented , to the pi'oposnl to remit it. As he had always believed that so long as the provincial system was in existence, the General Government could not carry on without borrowing, ho was not surprised to find that th"c Government proposed to raise anew? loan, nor did he blame them for doing so. Bufc the proposed manner of raising the monoy was moro objectionable than the matter. He was not astonished to find that the Colonial Treasurer - had grown warm over the charge that he proposed to attempt a fraud ; but wub very glad to find that the Government had given way upon this pomt — a matter not very material, but of the two ways of raising the money, they had chosen the ' worrit. It must, however, not bo forgotten, that the Crown Agents had volunteered the information that the Loan Act might be road so as to allow of a fresh issue of debentures ; and. this cleared the Government of any intention of sharp practice. If the Government were strong enough to carry their Budget, they were strong enough* to carry a Loan Bill ; but he hoped they would not give way for fear of a hostile vote. It was certainly a very pleasant thing to hear that the Home Government wero indebted to the extent of £147,235 ; he only wished the General Government might get it, but uy»uM recommend them to wipe it off their book-. ..iio General Government surrendeied tho i- -ntvol of native affairs simply with thn intention that the whole expense af the war might be taken off tho shoulders of the Imperial Government, and put upon the colony. The fatal gift was accepted, and now we must be prepared to pay the cost. Probably the Colonial. , Treasurer would Bnd more difficulty in carrying Ins proposal to remit the payment of the allocated debt than any other proposal. Taking a common 3enge view of the mutter, it was better to write itF a bad debt than to keep it on the books to deceive one's self. Of course tho provinces of the . North Island could only ask this as an act of grace. If his own province wero to make a fair statement of its condition to the other proyincos, ho believed they would be willing to remit her ■ debt. If the timo for the payment of tho interest were extended it would have to be , so for nn indefinite time, and there was not a shadow of a chance that the . prm3ipal owed by Auckland could ever be rapuid. It was possible that under very good manigement, the confiscated lands might yield a reUirn ; but if tho confiscated lands in the province >f Auckland were handed over to the Provincial Government, they would bo no relief to that protinvo. It would be simply like the gift of a wliito elephant- made by the King of Siam to a jourtier whom he wishes to get rid of. Tho lands were once of value, but it had been destroyed jy the actiou of the colony. The Waikato scheme :iad gone to the wall; and it was doubtful whether it would bo worth tho while of the prorinCe to accept the land. Referring to the latter part of the Colonial Treasurer's statement, Mr Jarlc.tou said ho did not consider the resolutions ){ 1856 to bo a bargain, becauso a minority could lot be bound by the decision of a majority. He resented the charge that Auckland had sold her birthright, and would ask how she could have lone- so in 1856 ? In the vote that ho gave at ihub t inie, he never thought ho was making i bargain ; hud ha considered ho was doing 10, he should have ruado a better bargain ' Mian to give awaay an immense landed estate for £140,000. Ho should place his vote aft rhe disposal of the Government ; for he did not iesire v change of Ministry, and would liko a dissolution still loss. ' Mr TANURKD Ranked the Colonial Treasurer for£the very lucid statement he had made of blii slate of tho finances of tho colony. The statement, however, though vory satisfactory as regarded tho present year, did not deal with the, future. The great question before the House was —whether tliey were about to establish a system of permancnily living up to or beyond the means. The renl moaning of the Colonial Treasurer^ statement waa, that wo were to contract loans for the purpose of subsidizing the provinces. Tho sum proposed to be given to the provinces would not be sufficient to meet their wants, and if carried out, ihtira would bo a deficiency, whioh could only kia met by reducing tho provincial charges, ile luoko'l upon the proposal to raise a fresh loan with the utamst alarm. Tliw JJ on. J. HALL said the Government had no intention of carrying on the ordinary business of government »y means of loans ; but only proposed to borrow money to provide for extraordinary expenditure which might bo fairly charged upon posterity. Ono remarkable thing about the debute was, that the provtncialists had not made t heir voiced heard ut all. The Government had in no way abandoned thoir principle, and he Uojji-d they would hoar no more of the in.Mdious designs of the Government against thft provinces. The hon. member proceeded to combat, some of the arguments used against the financial proposals of tho Government. No doubt ifc ivas the intention of tho Parliament, when the riirt'o- Million Loan Act was passed, that not more Ihnn threo millions' worth of debentures should be issued ; and the Government would nevt-r dream of making a fresh is&uo of debontureft without at-king tho consent of the Legislature; but that was a part of thier scheme to which they would he willing to defer to the wish of the House. M r J. VVI LL I AMSON moved the adjournment of Ihe debate, which whs agreed to. PI'BUO DEFAULTERS DISQUALIFICATION BIIA. This Mill Wiis formally considered in Committee-. ABOLITION OF A BREST FOB DEBT BILL. Mr HEkVKS, in moving the second reading of this Bill, eaid it was of a purely technical nature, and would be a necessary consequence of certains clauses of I ho B mkruptcy Bill. Mr MAIN intimated thitat another time he would oppose the Bill, and also the clauses of the Bankruptcy Bill, upon which it was based. He would now move the adjournment of the debate. The >PEAKKR avid he had been informed by the Clerk that the Bill had not been officially circulated ; under these circumstances, he doubted if it wero competent for the House to read tho Bill a second time. The second reading was postponed till Tuesday. PFBMO RESERVES BU.L. Tho Hon. J. HALL explained that the object of this Bill was to enable Superintendents to sell portions ol publio reserves to the General Govern- ' ment, and moved that it be read a secoHd time* •■ which was agreed to. • ! GOLDFIELDB ACXB AMENDMENT BILL. The umendments mado in this Bill by the- : Committee were agreed to. . BRITIBH-AUBTBALABIAN MAIL SBEVICB BIM.. „ The amendments made by the Committee, in thin Bill were also agreed to. Tho House adjourned at 12.45 a.m. Waiboi — A correspondent of the Hawko'sßay Herald writes, from VVuiroa : — Misfortunes never s oomo singly, aaya the old proverb, and it is now > been verified here in a remarkable manner. Our > old friend Kopu has scarcely been laid in his grave .< in his new and handsonialy-buUt pa than the latter has been burned to the ground. Provi- f deniially, however no lives were lost. As 8ona» . » of your "readers are aware, Kopu's pa was the ' scone of the late feast at the Wairoa ; it was by, \ far the largest palisade pa in the district, nearly ' , the whole of which is how in ruins. ' ' '/ , TnuiiraoN's Son. — William Thompson* eldeet ' , son, Ifotereni te Waharoa, is now in Auckland r s with Ta Rahi. Te Hafcuiwhi. and several other ■ * , chiefs of the Queen portion of thk Ngatihau tribe* ••*! t They have several pieces of business in Auckland* J i — among others to get arms from the Government { j to defend themselves in oaae of an attack by the vs I i King .party. : >i f. .'• ■, ;•, ; -.J i \> ■ — i",i. ■"' -..?,' ,'.'w.aU i.i.. J ..;iij...JUJml j (sfFOR LATESr NEWS SEE PAGE tijSL