HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Wellington Independent, Volume XXI, Issue 2388, 14 July 1866, Page 6

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Thursday, July 12. The House met at noon. Prayers were read, and the minuteß of the laßt meeting were read and confirmed. DISTILLATION. Major RICHARDSON, by leavo of tho House, asked if the hon. gentleman at tho head of the Government could give him an answer to the question put by him on a previous day on this Bubjcct. Mr. STAFFORD said that he would be prepared to give an answer on Tcesday.

PANAMA SEEVIOE. Mr. WARD, with learo of the HOU9O, asked •whether, .ns no doubt on the part of the Company existed as to the possibility of one of the large . steamers leaving for Panama on the Bth or 24th of August, there was any reason why the Governniant such entertain such a doubt. Mr. STAFFORD said that the Manager of the Company had waited on him a few days ago, and said that there was a doubt as to whether the Mataura would arrive in time to start from Sydney on the Ist of August, and suggested that either'she should wait till the 15th, or that the Rakaia should turn round from Wellington, or that tho Prince Alfred or Otago should do the service for that voyage. The Government felt that one of tho latter courses would involve the throwing out of Sydney from the benefit of the service that month, and did not like to take the responsibility of doing that under the negotiations that wore still going on. It was thought better that the Mataura should wait till the loth of the month, but the Governmont would not undertake the responsibility itself, and threw it on the Company, as any fine for detention could not be imposed under other circumstances; and the agent of the Company had said that the Compnny considered the contract to have been fully entered upon from the beginning of June. BEPOKTINa COMMITTEE.

Mr. FITGERALD, as Chairman of the Reporting Committee, asked for leave to defer bringing up their report until next sitting day, as they had been compelled to adjourn their last meeting to that afternoon. In the meantime, the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government had expressed a wish that the Committee should give an opinion with respect to the reporters' gallery. He might say that the Committee considered that the only position in which reporters could be expected to give correct reports wa3 that in which, they were now placed. Mr. D. BELL said that if it was the pleasure of tho House to afford accommodation to reporters for giving thoso large, comprehensive, instructive, and intelligible reports which had been given to the House and country, instead of accommodating the members of the Legislative Council, they coxild of course do bo.

Leave was granted to extend the tune for bringing up the report of the Committee.

debtors' and creditors' act.

Mr. HARGREAVES was sorry that the House ■was likely to bo disappointed with regard to having a new Act on this important subject, after hearing the observations of tho head of the Government the other day. Under these circumstances, he thought that he was entitled to ask for the document, mentioned in tho motion put on the paper by him, and especially for the reports given by tho different Chambers of Commerce throughout the Colony. For his own part, he thought it would be better to. recur to the old system than to continue tho present Act which held out inducements to debtors to go through the Court, and held it in terrorem over the heads of creditors that would do so. It wa3 well known that in very few cuses were dividends paid, and ho might say that the very first case brought before the Court in Christchurch was still in abeyanco. He would therefore move, — "For copies of roports from inspectors, and other sources relative to the working of the Debtors' and Creditors' Acts of 1862 and 1865, now in operation.

Mr. W. W. TAYLOR had tho greatest pleasure in seconding the motion, as ho thought tho prosent law was most disgraceful. He would even recommend that the question should be referred to a well-chosen Solect Committee.

Mr. D. BELL hoped that such a course as that would not be pursued, as a similar one was tried in 1862, and the result was that the report given was torn to pieces by every lawyer in the

House,

Mr. STAFFORD said that the Government would have no objection to giving the papers, but he would remind the hon. gentleman who moved tho motion that a number of them wore already printed. He might say that neither the late Govermnent nor tho present were responsible for the existing law. Tho lato Government had followed in the course pursued by their predecossoi's, and had taken tho opinions of tho best authorities throughout tho Colony, but had not introduced a Bill, and the House had appointed a Select Commifctco who drafted the | Bill which was now law. He did not believe that tho Act of last session was a bad one, and it ought not to bo repealed unless tho previous ones and in fact all the laws of the Colony on tho subject were swept away. Indeed, he believed that the Act of last session in the appointment of Inspectors had' acted as a very wholesome check, and had accoleratod tho realizing of estates very materially. Tho only question of delay was in tho collection of fees, and this arose only in regard to estates sequestrated under law in force previous to last session. The papers moved for, however, showed all this, and the Government would not, if tho House chose, oppose the appointment of a Select Committee.

Mr. FITZGERALD would boar testimony to the great inconvenience of the working of the

present Act. He would not speak at length upon the matter at present, as it would no doubt, be fully discussed before the end of the session, but he might say that he could not see how the Inspectors were paid out of the estates, as creditors never got anything. (Laughter.) Mr. REYNOLDS bore testimony to the great discontent felt at Dnnedin with the present law, which gave everything to the legal profession, and nothing to the creditors. Mr. HALL asked if the hon. mover would object to adding tho words " and any correspondence explaining tho amounts of salary paid to Inspectors in bankruptcy." | Major RICHARDSON seconded the amendment. Mr. CLARK expressed the great dissatisfaction felt in Auckland, and gave an instance in which a debtor had refused to give any information to his creditors with respect to his estate, and, shaking tho Debtors and Creditors Act over their heads, threatened to go through tho Court, if they would not accept 10s in the pound, which they were glad to do. He hoped the motion would be pressed, and that some further steps might be taken in the matter. Mr. HARGREAVES having shortly replied, and assented to the amendment by the hon. member for Heathcoto (Mr. Hall), the question was put, and tho motion, as amended, agreed to. THE CASE OF BEGINA V. ABMSTBONO. \IV ARMSTRONG- would not make any

remarks in moving the motion on this subject I in his name, as he would afterwards move for a Select Committee to consider it. He would tako the opportunity of thanking his Excellency the Governor for releasing him from prison; He would now move, — " That a copy of all correspondence between Mr. Armstrong and the Government respecting the Resident Magistrate of Akaroa, and the Resident Magistrate's reply thereto} also, copy of any petitions or correspondence from the inhabitants of Akaroa or Canterbury, respecting Mr. Armstrong's release from prison, be laid on the table of this House." , Mr. BUNNY seconded the motion, which was agreed to. ! ALLOWANCES TO POSTMASTEBS. On the motion of Mr. WARD, it was ordered that the return laid upon the table showing the expenditure of the Postal Department in allowances and commissions to licensed vendors of postage stamps, be printed. WASTE LANDS COMMITTEE. On the motion of Mr. JOLLIE, it was ordered that the Waste Lands Committee have power to communicate from time to time with any similar Committee which may be appointed by theLegislative Council. MANAWATU" BLOCK.

Mr. FITZGERALD said that the question referred to in his motion was one wluch he did not intend to bring before tho House this session ; but, as some of the letters he had receivsd res-, pecting the Manawatn block had not been pubislhed, he would like to have them all laid before thb House. He would therefore move— "That a copy of a letter from Mr. FitzGerald, dated the 11th day of July, 1866, to the Native Minister, with its several enclosures, and with authorized translations of such enclosures, be laid on the table of this House."

Colonel HAULTAIN said that the Government would have no objection to giving these papers. Mr. J. O'NEILL did not know what the contents of theae documents were ; but if they were analogous to other letters by the hon. member for ! Christchurch, it would be better that they should ; lie for ever on the Government shelves. Letters 1 such as these had caused great difficulty in the North, and not long ago a pamphlet had been sent by a gentleman of the Middle Island to the natives in the North, recommending them to mark off boundaries of their own between themselves and the pakeha, and thi3 had been acted on in one instance, and white men were prevented from crossing that line. It would be better if the hon. gentleman would devote his attention more to the prevention of crime in his own Province than lo instilling such ideas into thß native mind. Mr. ATKINSON said that such lines had been drawn by natives in the part of the country from which he came, long before the pamphlet referred to had been published. Tho question was then put, and the motion agreed to. COMMITTEES. On tho motion of Mr. CARLETON, the names of Mr. O'Rorke and Mr. J. C. Richmond were added to the Joint Committee on Private Bills ; and Mr. Wells, Mr. Reynolds, and Mr. Dillon Bell to the Joint Committee on Standing Orders ; and Mr. Brandon, Mr. O'Rorke. Mr. Orraond, Mr. Cox, and tho mover were nominated as the Committee of Selection.

ANTI-DATED CEOWN GBANTS VALIDATION ACT.

Mr. STAFFORD, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said that it had been passed by the Legislative Council last session, and had been down for second reading in that House, but came before it at too lato a period of the session for any action to be taken. He would defer the time for committing it until Tuesday, in order to enable the legal members of the House to consider the matter.

Mr. WHITAKER said that the Bill was a most important one ; but he thought it had been framed under a misapprehension of the existing law, and he hoped the legal gentlemen in the House would give their especial attention to it before it came into Committee. There were several points in which it required a very careful revision, and it might then be a very useful Bill.

After a short discussion as to tho technical difficulties of the present and proposed acts, Mr. CARLETON suggested that the Bill should be referred to a carefully chosen Select Committee of the House,

Mr. STAFFORD agreed to this suggestion, and said that on tho second reading being agreed to, he would move for the reference of the Bill to a Select Committee.

The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be referred to a Select Committee, consisting of Messrs. Whitakcr, Borlase, Brandon, Moorhouse, Carlton, Williamson, J. 0. Richmond, Hall, Bell, and Dick, the report to bo brought up that day week. MAUNGATAPTT MURDERS. Mr. A. RICHMOND, by permission of the House, asked the hon. member at the head of the Government whether it wns the intention of the Government to cause a special sitting of the Supreme Court to be held at Nelson for the trial of the four men at present in custody there on a charge of murder. Mr. STAFFORD said that the Government without having actually come to any final determination, were strongly of opinion that it was desirable that those persons should be brought to Wellington to bo tried. This conclusion they , had arrived at for several reasons. In the first I place, it was deemed that the trial could take ' place at an earlier date here than at Nelson, and this wns to be secured if possible in order not to interfere with Courts to bo held elsewhere. There were besides this, other reasons which would no doubt suggest themselves to hon. members why this should bo done, and ono of these was that i it would tend to allay tho natural excitement into which the people of Nelson must have fallen in consequence of tho mystery which had hitherto oxisted with regard to these murders, and which was day by day changing into the knowledge that a sories of crimes of tho most diabolical character had been committed. In tho second place, it would be well to remove these men to Wollington for safe custody. The gaol at Nchon was not of sufficient strength to secure them there

-without putting the Provincial Government to a great expense, which would ho scarcely fair, as they had already expended a good deal upon the matter. The General Government had also thought that for the proper administration of justice the venue ought to be changed. These considerations had almost induced the Government to take steps to enable them to carry out auch measures, but the final decision was not yet arrived at. He might Bay that the Government had not done anything without consulting the Judge of the Supreme Court before whom the trial would take place. Mr. C. WILSON wished to know if the hon. gentleman would object to say how many men would have to be brought over as witnesses, as he was aware that a great many had brought themselves into the position of witnesses through the very noble and praiseworbhy action they had taken in this matter. Mr. STAFFORD said that it would be iropo:* sible to state how many would have to be brought over, but a great number of them would have to come from the West Coast, and it would be just as easy to bring them over to Wellington as to Nelson. This question also involved the difficulty of the different judicial districts which at present existed, and which had induced the Governme t to introduce the Bill which he had moved on a previous evening. There was a doubt even whether the jury of one province could try men for crimes committed in another, and in this in- \ than three provinces. This was a matter of the greatest doubt, and it had been thought that some such Bill as this should be introduced before any action was taken, otherwise the men might have to be tried in three different places. Mr. CARLETON put the question as to how this would operate should the men have been committed. Mr. STAFFORD said there would be no committal of the men until after the decision of the Legislature was known. They would be merely remanded from time to time. The House then adjourned.

Fbiday, July 13th, 1866. Tkb Spbakbb took the chair at 11 o'clock.

PETITION.

Mr: CARLETON brought up a petition from George Grant, a Government officer, whose services had been dispensed with without any reason being assigned. The Hon. Colonel HAXTLTAIN said that the Government had no objection to the petition lying on the table.

The SPEAKER conceived by such a course the Government assented to the petition. After a little discussion the petition was ordered to lie on the table. BEPOBTING OT DEBATES COMMITTEE. Mr. FITZGERALD brought up the report of the Committee on Reporting the Debates; it stated that two plans had been proposed, viz., that the Government should have its own reporting staff, or that the newspapers should provide reports for a certain sum. The former had not been thought practicable at present ; with regard to the latter plan, evidenoe had been takeii from the proprietors of the newspapers in Wellington, and the Committee conceived that it would be the better one for the present Session. PAPEB. A return was laid on the table of letters from i the Native Minister. INDICTABLE OFFENCES BILE. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD, in moving the second reading of the Indictable Offences Bill, Baid he would ask the House to allow it to be read a second time, although it was not yet in the hands of members. Ho had already stated tho object of the Bill, and hoped that the House would assent to the motion, as the Bill was* Mr. FITZGERALD said that it was an unusual request, but on the understanding that th« speedy passing of the Bill was necessary for the public service, he did not think there could be any objection. The Bill was read a second time. COMBULSOBY TAKING OF LAND BILL. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. STAFFORD, a Bill to enable Provincial Legislatures to pass laws authorising the compulsory taking of land for works of a public nature wa3 read a first time and ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday next. NATIVES' CONTBACT9 VALIDATION BILL. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD said that the Bill was a short one, and stated the object of it. Leave was given to bring in the Bill entitled " An Act to validate the contracts entered into with Aboriginal Natives entitled to compensation under the New Zealand Settlements Act, 1863, aud the New Zealand Settlements Amendment and Continuance Act, 1865," and it was read a first time. LAND SALES DUTIES BILL. . The House went into Committee to consider the giving leave to bring in a Bill to appropriate certain duties received on sales of land under the " Native Lands Act, 1862." Leave was given to bring in the Bill, and the House resumed. BONDED WABBHOTTSE3 DTTTY BUI. The Hon. Mr. JOLLIE moved,— "That the House resolve itself in Committee of the whole House, to consider of the giving leave to bring in a Bill to impose a duty on Bonded Warehouses." Mr. DILLON BELL said that nothing was yet known of the financial proposals of the Government. Although this was a small matter, he objected to any financial proposals being made by driblets before the financial statement was made.

The Hon. Mr. STAFFOKD said that he agreed with the principle laid down, but this was rather a departmental matter and would enable a statement to be made as to the Customs. The Government would not press the motion against the wish of the House.

Major RICHARDSON hoped that the Bill would be deferred until some statement was made as to the amount of duties likely to be levied and the reason why it was introduced. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD said that some further statements would be made in Committee.

Mr. CROSBIE WARD objected to such a Bill being considered until the financial statement was made.

The Hon. Mr. JOLLIE had no desire to press the motion against the wishes of the House, but he thought it might bo assented to, as it was only a preliminary step. The Honse then wont into Committoo.

The Hon. Mr. JOLLIE said that the Bill was rather of an administrative character than otherwise, and was meant to recoup the Government a portion of the expenses necessary in supervising the bonded warehouses. Mr. REYNOLDS said that he hoped the matter would bo postponed until those persons interested and likely to be affected hai had time to ox press their views. The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES said that no member could vote on a matter in which, lie had any direct pecuniary interest. Mr. REYNOLDS replied that he owned a bonded warehouse in Dunedin, but was not the tenant of it.

Mr. HARG-REAYES said that he had a bonded store, but he supposed that he might speak on the subject. It would be desirable to have bonded warehouses well constructed, if that was the object of the Bill ; but ho knew of no placo in which the duties proposed wore levied. The hon. membor then snggostod certain waya in which the Government might economise in managing the Customs in his own province, by having ono staff for Christchurch and Lytfcelton,

inatead of two as at present. He hoped the matter would be deferred until pome reports were obtained, and begged to more that progress be Mr. STAFFORD said that further information would soon he toid on the table. He was certain that these duties were imposed in the other Australian colonies, and rightly too, for a certain class was much favored by the establishment of these private bonded warehouses, and it was only just that they should pay towards the supervision. The duty proposed was fifty per cent less than that in other colonies. The present Governmont entirely concurred in the advisability of having a Customs Department at Christchurch, as many merchants were there ; when the means of communication between that town and Lyttelton was improved, it would be a question then whether one staff would not do, but the Government would not anticipate their decision on that matter. The duties proposed were, £30 up to a certain capacity, and £5 for every ten tons above that. Mr. DILLON BELL said that quite enough had been said to show that it was unadvisable to continue the discussion, he would propose that progress be reported. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD eaid that the Government would not press the matter at px-esent. Mr. FITZGERALD said that the Government had inadvertently brought forward a subject on which some discussion was likely to arise, and with his usual sagacity, the Premier did not desire to press it. Agood dealwassaid last session against bringing do wn financial proposals in driblets, yet the Premier appeared to pursue the same practice. (A laugh.) After some discussion, the House resumed.

PENSIONS BILL. On tlio motion of the Hon. Colonel HAULTAIN, the House went into Committee. Leave wa3 given to bring in a Bill, to regulate the granting of pensions to officers and men of tlio Colonial Forces for wounds or injuries received vrhile on actual service, and to the widows and families of the same in certain cases. and the House resumed. Hill. RODEHT D'oyi/Y'3 OASJE.

Mr. HALL said that this gentleman had written libellous lettters to the Attorney-General ] against the Bench et Timaru— principally Mr. Woolcombe the Resident Magistrate. The Go- ' yernmenfc advised him to lay a criminal information, but afterwards tho prosecution abated on an apology being made. He desired some information on the subject, as great expense had been incurred unnecessarily in the public prosecution, and the Magistrate had not had his character publicly cleared. He should also wish to know who had paid the costs. In conclusion ho moved — " For copies of all correspondence between the Government, the Resident Magistrate at Timaru, and Mr. Robert D'Oyley, respecting the prosecution of that gentteman for the publication of a! libel upon the Resident Magistrate afc Timaru. ! Also, for a statement of the reasons why that prosecution was withdrawn ; of the total expense incurred in the prosecution ; and of the person or persons by whom such expense had been paid." Mr. CRACROFT WILSON seconded the motion. . Mr. COX said that he was one of tho Magistrates who committed in this case and would suggest as an amendment that any other correspondence with the Government on the subject should be included. The whole Bench of Magistrates there had made a report to the Government on tho matter, on which they advised a prosecution. The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD said that Mr. Woollcombe had withdrawn the prosecution without the knowledge or sanction of the Government. If the charges were true, Mr. Woollcombe was not to fit to sit as a Magistrate, but if not, his character required to bo cleared. The Government thought that the matter should bo investigated, and that tho best means was to institute a prosecution for libel. The reasons for its withdrawal the Government did not now see very clearly. With regard to expense, the Government had not incurred any and did not intend to pay any of it. Mr. CRACROFT WILSON did not see how Mr. Coyley could be made to pay the expenses, if he had not so already. The resolution us amended was agreed to. COLONIAL FORCES. Mr. CROSBIE WARD desired to know the cost of these forces and other information re- . specting them. One of his objects was to sec how far the number of those receiving pay and rations was being reduced, and he hoped that information would be supplied. Ho begged to move, " That a return be laid on the table showing the present monthly cast, in pay and rations, of tho Colonial Forces ; also, the number and monthly cost of the same forces on January Ist, 1865, and the monthly increase or decrease in number and ! cost since that time."

The Hon. Colonel HAULTAIN suggested that the words " and cost" should be omitted in order that the return might be more speedily made. The motion as amended was passed. ASSEMBLY SITTINGS.

Mr. DILLON BELL wished to invito attention to the cost incurred by the country in these sittings. The House had hitherto done business of no importance ; parties appeared in fact like two combatants, neither desirous of striking the firsfc blow. He believed if it was known how much these sittings cost there would not be so much delay. He begged to move, " For a return, showing the estimated daily cost of the sittings of both Houses of Assembly; distinguishing the estimated amount of the honorarium as heretofore allowed to members, cost of lighting, firing, and salaries of clerks or other officers temporarily employed during the Session." Mr. CRACROFT WILSON seconded the motion.

The Hon. Mr. STAFFORD thought the return would do a great deal of good. The Government could not be expected to precipitate discussions on large propositions to which it was opposed. Tho Government had done its best to forward the business of tho country — and had already introduced 17 Bills in one or other branch of the Legislature, being more than had had been introduced in any previous Session in tho same poi'Sad. The Q-uTcvmncnfc hurt, indeed, to be thankful to the members generally that all things had worked smoothly so far. The most important question was no doubt finance, and tho Government proposed to bring it forward at a very early period. The defence of tho country was also a largo question, and being connected with finance, would be considered after it. If there had not been long sittings hitherto, it was not because the Government had not furnished the House with sufficient pabulum, but becauoo tho House had worked with such harmony hitherto. He hoped those members who had debatable questions to bring forward such as separation to which he was opposed they would do so quickly. Major KICHAKDSON said that it was satisfactory to learn that the Premier was opposed to separation ; ho should like also to know the opinions of his colleagues. Tho opposition, if he might call it so, had done nothing to embarrass tho Government so i'ar, for ifc had no desire to do so. The policy of the Weld Ministry had, in fact, been adopted by the present Government, but he waited anxiously to learn how £210,000 had been saved to tho country, for he would be prepared perhaps to take a different line on the Stamp Duties, estimated to realize £75,000, than ho had done previously. (Laughter.) He should also wish to know, some policy of Colonial Defence. There was something besides the cost to the country of these, sittings; there was tho cost to individual members. He discarded tho word

1 honorarium ;" he did not look on it as such, but as a just payment for the services and expenses ho was put to in attending the Legislature, and making a humble effort to servo his country. Some men were affluent and could I afford to give up their time to legislate duties, but it was not so with him. After a few more remarks, Major Richardson concluded amid cheers. Mr. J. C. RICHMOND said there was another question to bo considered which ought to be included in one return, viz., how many persons 1 who had seats in this House, were also drawing emoluments from the Provincial Chests, and how much.

Mr. REYNOLDS spoke against the motion. Mi\ BORLASE spoke in support of it ; he had learnt more of the state of parties during this debate than any previous one. He was glad to learn that the Premier was opposed to separation, and presumed that ho expressed the opinion of the whole Government. Something had been •aid about " her Majesty's opposition ;" he had not known of its existence, and was glad to hear that there was one.

The Hon. Colonel HAULTAIN said that there appeared to be a wish on the part of some members to know the opinions of the members of the | Government on subjects not under discussion. Those opinions -would be made known in due time. (Laughter") ! Mr. DILLON BELL said that his object had been partly attained by this debate, as some expression of policy had been elicited from the Government. Last session the question of separation was decided on the negative ; but during the recess it had been advocated both in Auckland and Otago. One or two members of the Government belonged to those Provinces. The members of the former Province were said to be unanimouß on the subject-, and the Superintendent of Auckland sent home a petition praying for it.

Mr. CROSBIE WARD rose to order, as tho hon. member was introducing debatcable matter. The SPEAKER said that perhaps ho had allowed too much latitude to previous members. He could not therefore feel justified in stopping the mover in reply. Mr. DILLON BELL then said that tho Premier had eaid that the Government was opposed to Separation, but the Defence Minister had declined to give any opinion. The House should have information on this subject as soon as possible. He objected io the present attitude of the Government in waiting for questions to be brought forward without expressing any policy ; unless the Government was united on all important questions, Parliamentary Government was impossible. He looked on the declaration of the Premier as binding every member of tho Government. (Cheers.) In conclusion, Mr. Dillon Bell declined to withdraw the motion.

Tho motion was agreed to. NKW BILLS,

Tho " District Courts Jurisdiction Extension," and "Law of Evidence Amendment Bills," brought down from the Upper House, were read a first time.

The House adjourned at a quarter to four o'clock.