PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Wellington Independent, Volume XV, Issue 1369, 4 October 1859, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

MONDAY, adit SEPTEMBER, 1850. Present all the members except Messrs. B.iri'y, Campbell, Hundley, Ludlam, Philiipsj St. Hill. Schtiltze, Vara'ham, and Wilcick. : •

The Speaker took the chair precisely at five o'clock. . . ...

• The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed.

The Si'EAKEn, then read a "letter frohi his Honor covering a despatch from the Colonial Secretary relative to the Waste Land Act of 185-1, and intimating that the General Gjverninent would not sanction iv.iy alterations in the Lund Herniations, which on the motion of Mr. Wakeiickl was ordered to be printed.

Mil. Cahpentki l . gave notice .that on next sitting day lie would ask the. Provincial' Secretary as to what, if any, guarantee of employment had been given t>i Immigrants: , ■■

The Provincial. Skchetauv, pursuant to notice, moved: —"That whereas this Council lias been now lour weeks in session, during; which its time lias been consumed in party struggles, and the practical measures submitted to its'consideration have been repeatedly postponed and adjourned; and whoieus intimation has been given (in reply to Message No. 1) that it- is the intention of the majority of the Council further to adjourn the Council for a month, icnti so indefinite!/ postpone the consideration and settlement of the various important measures drought before it; and whereas it is not reasonable to suppose that the Countiy members will again comedown tins Session : and if they should not, any votes and proceedings of the Council, after such an adjournment, could not bo regarded as of the same, weight ami ellbctus if passedbefore the Cuuntry liad been thus virtually left unrepresented; and whereas it is highly desirable that as speedy a termination as possible should be. put to these fruitless party struggles, whereby the interests of t!ie setlleis and tho progress of the Province m c forgotten or retarded. •'

" For these reasons it becomes iv the opinion of this Council, the paramount duty of its members, one and all, to-consent to an immodiiiui and simultaneous resignation of their seats ; so that the electors—the proper constitutional tribunal—may decide between the disputing , " parties. . '■ ■' "This Council further records its opinion that in such a case it would become the duty of (.he Superintendent to convene the Council' within one month of the return of the last of the writs: and. that he would be bound to select his Executive from among the majority of such new Council. .. , , . . . .

Iv every debate iv that house the question o dissolution or resignation had been mooted on one side or the other. The hou. member opposite (Mr. Wnkefield) acknowledged the necessity and ultimate probability ef such a course the only difference between them was as to the time when. He (the Prov. Secretary) thought that instead of employing the proposed mouths' adjournment iv an appeal to the Governor, it would be more profitably spent iv

appealing to the constituency to decide between them, the bon. gentleman too would greatly suffer in health, perhaps die,- for want of that diurnal excitement to which they. had. of late been so accustomed, and on that account alone his proposal was an advantageous, he might add, a necessary one, They would see too, that the challenge of going to the people was not on the part of the Government merely theoretical, but a real challenge and given in all good faith, that if accepted by one party it would be acted on by the other. It has been argued by hon. gentlemen opposite, that to appeal to the people at present, would not bo a fair trial of strength between them inasmuch, as the Government lias the power of bribery and cumiption. This can be easily answered. -The necessity of appeal had as he before stated, been admitted by the hon. member opposite, but that a present the Government would be in a position so said Mr. Wiikefield to exercise undue influence, while the opposition had nothing to give away. In the petition adopted on the previous evening he found these words " If it remain understood that the Superintendent lias the power of spending public money without the'satiction of this Council, a large number of electors would be influenced by the mere wish to pai take personally of the immediate public expenditure promised by the individual candidate for the Superintendency." And again, after alluding to threats which had been made by electors (which no one more condemned' than he did) in ihe hope, of intimidating the representatives of ihepeople into voting public money for their employment irrespective of all other considerations, the document he referred to went on to argue " that such Eelectors would equally vote for any candidate who might promise such expenditure." These extracts clearly proved that the hon. member opposite admits the corruption of promises, as equal in effect to any other means. Now, has not the hon. member opposite as large au amount of that capital on hand as Government?, and could it not be used by with equal if not greater effectconsidering their relative positions in thatbouse? After alluding to the various delays'thathad taken place in theseUlemcntufall public business, and that it was dnubtful whether country members would return at the end of a mouth's adjournment again to waste their time in useless party struggles, and therefore how much better it was to use that time in bringing their disputes to a final is.sue by appealing to the people, which in his opiuion, was afar more constitutional measure than any appeal to His Excellency. The hon. gentleman condemned in the most unequivocal language, the c-uirso pursued with regard to the Waste I/nrb as referred to in the despatch laid on the Council table that evening, he could see no reason why Auckland should bs allowed to liume Land Regulations, which, according to Mr. Wakefield, had been the means of inducing such n large amount of immigration, while they wore forbidden,—-and that was neither just uov right "to make flesh of one Province and fish of another." He differed in toto from the political doctrines so often laid down, that places G> vernors of Colonies on an equality with the Queen ; they were totally dillereiit both in the functions they had to perform, and in their tenure of office. There were some Governors indeed who were not completely abject on their executive, but reserved to themselves some right of action. It was a mistake to carry out too strict a parallel between responsible government at home and that carried out here. He uuulil not help saying that the Act which dismembered this Province was one of those points which the Governor should have vetoed. The Governor was bound to keep in tact (he honor of each Province. The despatch just read yius another significant fact of an attempt to injure one part of this Colony ; and he charged the Government witk all ill effects tint might ensue. The hon. gentleman concluded hi; speech by urging that the power of Provinces were quite as strong, if not stronger, in the hands of -Mr. YVakeiield, than -with Government. He had the command of a majority who, like a flock of sheep would follow him over hedge and ditch; and while he awaited with curiosity his reply to his motion he trusted it would be met by a direct reply, and not suffered to lapse. Ha moved the resolution standing in his name.

The Pro. The.vsureu briefly seconded it. Mr. Wakbpielb, in the course of a long speech, rebutted tho accusation of the Provincial Secretary that his party would ■ degrade themselves, by blindly following his dictates, contrary to their individual convictions of what was right. As to the distress that existed, he thought it was mainly attributable to the ex. travag-.ince of the gentlemen opposite, fui they werereckless of expenditure so long as they c.niiil secure elective influence; and it was useless to make any appeal to thd people until the rjueslion of the control of the public purse hail been decided, -for, as things weie at present, an extravagant Superintendent would sure to be eloi-ted. After some slight allusion to t'.ie despatch that had been received, and the pro piised land regulations brought forward by tho Provincial Secretary, he went on to say that he had been accused of subserviency, but while his subserviency was simply to the office of the Governor, which the hon. gentleman opposite condemned, us wauling to evince his indepon (fence of all authority, yet with strange iuconsistency worshipped constituted authority when in the shape of an elected Superiateudont. As to the Governor being abjectly dependent on bis executive, he would remind the Council that that executive had beeu elected by a majority of the House of Representatives, and possessed their confidence. . He must say to quote 11 former expression that the resolution was an electioneering speech, and must be met by an electioneering answtr: Like a party wiio held a , bad hand at Cards the' Government sai.l : to tho constituency as to tlie : dealer,'if you will deal us afresh, and give 'us\;good. card's, v/e. will give'you any tiling. Aftor pursuing this similie 'at some length,'aiidihat it would be.futile t:> make an appeal to the electors when from the present aspect of affairs they might be quite sure, the.-.majority of voters- would decide in favour of those who could- or vbo would spend public money Sir. Wakelield' concluded his spceuh'by .contending that without a control of- public expenditure, public lagislalion was a mockery, a snare, and an illusion, and moving the following amendment. . "That all the words after the word ' whereas,' in the lirst line be.struck out, and that the following words be substituted in lieu thereof: —

... "The Superintendent prorogued the Council arbitrarily in September, 1858; before its. num. bers were completed by the election of members to fill four seats vacated through acceptance of ollice; and whereas, ho thus prevented ihe representatives of , the people, in full Council assembled, from considering the propriety of the proposed expenditure ; and whereas, he continued afterwards for twelve months, excepting four days, to spend public mouey without the sanction of the Council—which sanction ho neither asked nor allowed it the opportunity of giving—during thationg interval; and whereas, the Superintendent has (in his Message No. 1). asserted that arbitrary and discourteous proceeding to have beeu both legal and expedient.

" For , these reasons, and for others explained in the Council's reply to Message No. I. and in the Council's -petition to the Governor, the Council believes that it would ba a grave dereliction of constitutional principles, and of its duties to ihe various constituencies, to decide on any other measures of importance, until it shall have been formally determined whether the decisions u'i the Council on any subject can obtain that weight which an undoubted control over the public expenJiture can alone secure to them.

The Council is fully aware that, unless such a cjntrol be secured to it, none of ils delibera tions or decisions can have any efleet, if opposed to the opinions of the individual Superintendent Until this all impuiluiitriuestion be set at rest, it would be iv vain for the Provincial Council to rocoid any opinion whatever as to what would, or would not, be the duty ot the Superintendent, since the power of spending the public money without the sanction of the Council would always enable him to frustrate the decisions of its majority, as he has done on many occasions, by an arbitrary veto, by silent contempt, or by a prorogation of unusual length."

Mr. Hustek seconded the amendment.

Mr. Fox, in a long and able speech, supported the oiiginal motion. In the course of his remarks the hon. gentleman made some sarcastic allusions to the proceedings of the Council, and stated that he had no doubt that the House of Commons would copy them. As to a late trial 'that had taken place in that House, it far exceeded in the magnitude of the interests it Involved, and the State with which it was conducted the celebrated trial of Warren Hastings: iv fact the eyes of all Europe were upon them. As to Ihe resolutions from the Wairarapa that had been laid on the table, he was glad to see the hon. member for the City (Mr. Wakefield) diil nut wish to be too hard upon those misguided men ; but the reason was apparent; the opposition was a good deal frightened, whether those resolutions could be viewed either as the production ofliege slaves of His Honor the Superintendent, or of others. After strongly deprecating the evil policy of not passing measures to enable the Superintendent to commence mwy varied and necessary public works, and which would by the labour thit must oonse quently be employed, considerably alleviate the present public distress,—the hon. gentleman went on to show that the regulation relative to military settlers, the idea of which Government had been accused of stealing, could not bz claimed us an original suggestion by the opposition, as Sir Charles Ciilfjid had mooted the point in the House of Representatives, long before the Committee of that Council had ever considered tin;' matter. There was nothing very new i:i the idea, of giaaling land to military settlers, and.it was only by omission that it had not been introduced into Sir George Grey's regulations. As to the Superintendent claiming an absolute control over the public purse, it -was one of the greatest fallacies that bad ever been enunciated; the assertion was complete rubbish, the Superintendent claimad no such control. The real question - at issue between them, was, whether the Superintendent, has not a right to disburse the public monies, for the public gi.iud, if the Council, as hud been the e.ts:;, refused to pass the Estimates and Appropriation Act? The Council choose toabiogate their power. [We were prorogued.] There w.is no prorogation for five months during which time the e-timates had been lying on the toWe. ! El was falsi! to say the Superintendent wisbes I for absolute control. There was nothing preventing that Council passing estimates and by S3 doing tie-tbe Superintendent ■legallyu'p from" any extra expenditure. It has been contended by gentlemen opposite, continued .Mr. Fox, that an appeal to the people is not desirable because th-3 Government have got the power of corrupting the. constituency by promises. But they could promise on 'both sides, and lie thought the opposition could do so much more elfectuaily, when, especially as they anticipated, the purse was abjut to be transferred; but they, the Government could promise nothing, as they might not be in v position to keep their"prjmisss. But, he thought, he might in a slight degree retaliate—he had he ml of the promise of'giving waste lands away for nothing—of immigrants nut hei:ig called upon to pay their monthly notes, were these promises nothing? And iY.is not such conduct on the part of the oppcjsiLio.ii characterised by high morality and consistency? After some slight allusion . to an hon. member who had introduced a Bill, restraining G ivarnmdut nllicials and others {rum ur.duly interfering i i elections, proceeding afterwards 0:1 a oanvussi.ig expedition to Waiigatmi, lit; said, th.v he felt q.iit-j cjnvincud, with these f.tcts so patent to all, that as regards the opposition, a trick was an abomination to them, ana that they were the last men in the world to bo guilty of proMiisiug anything. Mr. Fox then proceeded in most powerful and sarcastic language t.) taunt the opposition with not daring to appeal to the constituency, that they had lost sight of the changes iv public opinion ; bat, he begged to assure them that the electors had found them out,—that a change luul come over the spirit ol ihjir dream, —anj that tliev were still to all intents and purposes untried men, and t!iuy would find that out, if thindiired to appeal to the people. Too City of Wellington winch i-s considered to have some men of talent had been sadiy disappointed in their representatives, as for instance, that gentleman whom they had returned at the heatl of the poll, instead of .instructing, that Council with words of wisdom ■ and electrifying , them with his oratory had been content during the whole session to sit as a silent (lummy, and had not loft one speech on record'by which to teach 'their'childrcn elocution. He had disgraced his constituency and he much doubted whether he would again bo " honored with a seat in that house. Another hon. member opposite (Mr. opposite (Mr. Stokes) ha , ' always been a deter•niiued opponent of iiepresentative Institutions, and if Willi this knowledge liie electors desired to have such a- man they wete w-jlcunne to him. As to the Author of the' Gag Bill' to p:eveul freedom of speech and election, ho felt convinced that-he would not be again returned. The electors of Wellington too had not forgotten that trial.at Canterbury from which that lun. member, ami another bad come out, with shame and confusion. In a similar strain Mr. Fox with the keenest and'most polished irony, proceeded to. comment on variofts members opposite, which we .confess our inability correctly to report, ho called them Mr. Wakefiold's small boys and nice boys they were. The hou. gentleman concluded by again urging an appeal to the people, as the proper ami most constitutional method of settling tlioiv dillereuccs. He supported the original motion. (I'ho hon. gentlemen resumed his scat amid much applause.) It being now seven o'clock, on tliß motion of Mr. Allen, the debate on the reply to His Honor's address was further postponed until Thursday, to allow the present discussion to be proceeded with. Mr. TooM.vrii iv a very long speech opposed the original uiotiou and supported the amend'

ment. He begged to assure the house he had no fear to meet his constituency again. As to parties being silent in that hotfse, it was not always those who spoke the most that did tho best, often the quiet remarks produce in the minds of those who hear the most effective good. He depreciated the language of the hon. member just sat down, as exhibiting no argument, but evincing great paucity of thought He was willing to go to the constituency but he must first see the principle established upon which they were to go.

Mr. Stokes followed on the game side. With regard to what had been said in regard to Mr. Hunter, he could only say that it was bis belief, that as long as public worth and public honesty were esteemed, that gentleman would so long , as he wished it he found to have a seat in that home. With regard to appealing to the,.people, the opposition would, sh.'ipe their conduct according f> their own judgment and not as their enemies wished. The reason why they were then called together was not so much for the purpose of passing estimates for which, argued Mr. Stokes the Superintendent cares little, as to enable his Honor, to raise prosper tivu funds. After such a long cuurse of reckless extravagance, and with the past staving them in the face, it was time to make anappeal and fly from petty tyrants, to the protection' of the throne. He'supported the amendment.

. The P.aovisoiAr, T-bkasubeh, opposed, the amendment and supported the original motion. Tlie idea the Council entertained as to the position of the Superintendent-was an erroneous one. The dissolution as -modtert ■by his hon. friend would have settled the whole question. If he was re-elected then lie and the Council would have to consider their relationship to each other. lie opposed an appeal to the Governor, why not go to the whole constituency, who are acquainted with all facts, instead of appealing to an individual who might judge partially ? As to the public purse it was under the control of that Council, but if they chose to lay it aside it was not the Executive's fault. After some fir.v remarks relative to their not attempting to pass Estimates he remarked that if they appealed lo the people, and a majority similar to that naff in the house was again returned, the Superintendent would undoubtedly resign. a:id give way to any other, who could or would w.irk in harmony with them. He thought their present proceedings tended to a break up of our provincial institutions.

Mr. Allex supported the Amendment that Council had a policy which they were elected u> support as well as the Superintendent. The people saw anu insisted on a curb on Government, and were not satisaed with one carried on by a minority, as regards the Estimates they were taken into consideration, and up to the li.ns they were prorogued no appropriation Act had been laid before them. When the proper time arrived ho was quite ready to meet his constituency.

The Paovi.fcML Sotrcrrop. spoke in favour' of the original motion. It was impossible to say ths opposition represented the constituency, ami the proper course was to go back until they sheived they did possess the confidence of the people. As to the people not calling upon them to'resign, wliy if nine tenths of the electors were to sign a petition to that effect they would evade acceding to it on the plea that one tenth had not signed.. Xhe-power of dissolution oughtto be vested in a Superintendent as the only way by which such a state of affairs as at present cjuld be brought to an issue. .

Mb. Cabpexteb and .Me. Bowleb followed in favour of the amendment. :

" The" Pboviscial. Secretary replied.-The whole opposition had seemed to wrisrgle under the discussion as if they bad been "under the surgeons knife on an operating table. Like bullocks the opposition seem to have an instinctive dr«ad of goads. It had not been asked that members opposite should alone go back to their Constituency but the whole body of provincial Legislation should be dissolved and that the appeal to the Electors should be simultaneous. If tlieoppasition w:is-again returned the Government party would immediately retire from their present position. (Mr. Wikefield we do'nt trust you). Pie begged to assure them that they dare not break such a pledge. The proposal is a fair English proposal a'iid if a majority of opponents were to "dj returned neither the Superintendent or his government would in any way prove obstructive. Appeal, 'said the hon. gei.tlemui' to the people your master and onrs. Why could not their differences be decided on, and practically resolved, by such appeal during the proposed monthsadjuurnment ? They had the desire to turn the government out of office but not the power. He did not wish to speak offensively but plainly, and he pointed out to them how they could attain their end. After some few allusions, to the large capital of promise, at the command of the opposition ;and with same few explanatory remark*, regarding the proposed New L.md Regulations, as not antagonistic to, hut only as amendments on, existing regulations, the hon. gentleman concluded by earnestly pressing his motion.

The House then divided as to ;I whether the words proposed ta he left out stand part of the question" when the there appeared.

Ayes—The Provincial Secretary, the Provincial Treasurer, the Provincial Solicitor, Messrs Carter, Fox, Smith and Watt. 7.

Noes—.Messrs. Allen,. Bowler, Carpenter, Milliter, Kiiiij, MoLiigga:], Stokes, Tooauth,. Wukefijid, Wallace, aud Warbuuou. 11.

The original mitiun was consequently lost, and the amendment carried.

On the motion of Mr.AHen the house went into a committee, of .supply, but immediately, reported progress and asked 'leave to sit again the following evening. Oj the house resuming .Mr. Wakelield moved the adjournment at a quarter past one o'clock a.m. to Tuesday evening.

Holloway's Pills.—Coughs, particularly those of a hard, dry character, frequently proceed, primarily, from ;i diseased condition of the. stomach and the liver, and may often be removed by a sin,'la d.)se of those extraordinary' Pills. is sometimes accompanied with a hacking cojgh, and a cough is also a symptom of consumption of dm liver. In such cases, physicians generally gire mercury, a practice as unnecessary as is dangerous, since a few doses, in- at any rate a full course of the Pills, uever fails to remove both the cause of the difficulty and the difficulty itself. The invigorating influence of the remedy upon the wea.ka.nd debilitated is truly marvellous.

Sir E. B. Lytton, while Secretary of State fur the Culouies, requested the Council of the Royal Society tv favour him with any scheme or suggestions with reference to the preparation of works descriptive of the zoology, botany, aud geology of the British colonial empire. In accordance with this request, the Council has forwarded a report to tue Colonial-ollice, embodying various suggestions, and adding a strong recommendation that the scheme should also comprehend veseurchesin terrestrial physics.