THE NATIVE MINISTER AT PUTIKI.

Wananga, Volume 5, Issue 30, 27 July 1878, Page 374

THE NATIVE MINISTER AT PUTIKI.

IMPORTANT MEETING. The Hon. J. Sheehan arrived in Wanganui on Tuesday, and, at the special request of Mete Kingi, visited Putiki on Wednesday. He was accompanied by Mr. Grace (Private Secretary), Karaitiana Takamoana, M.H.R., ivi.ijar Brown, Civil Commissioner, and Honi Pihama. The large meeting-house at Pntihi had been specially prepared for a visit, and a fairjuumber of Natives assembled to hear the words of the Minister. Kemp, Paipai, and a number of other Natives of note being absent- up the river the attendance was not so good as it would have been, but of those that were there no lack of speakers were found. The visitors accompanying the Ministerial partv, including Mr. Brycc, M.H.R., Mr. R. W. Woon, and otters having been seated, Mete Kingi uttered an address of welcome. He said Mr. Sheehan had visited all parts of the Colony and the Natives everywhere had accepted his policy ; they were satisfied with the intentions of tha Government. The Wanganuis were glad to welcome Mr. Sheehan, and were glad also to see Karaitiana and Honi Pihama. Haimoana repeated the welcome, and congratulated Sheehan on his sacessful tour round the Colony. They were the more pleased to see him a!s there was no trouble here ; all was peace, and the talk would be of peace. Mawhai (a very old Native, brother of the late Hori Kingi) spoke against improvements. He was a Maori of the old school, and did not want to see public works, as he did not see how the Maori would be benefitted. Katene (from Kaiwhiki) saluted Mr. Sheehan. He (Mr. Sheehan) was the Native Minister for the East Coast, but in Wanganui they did not know much about him. They had not seen much of him, but now he had arrived he (Katene) hoped the stay would extend over a day or two, as he had something of importance to say. Hoani Mete (son of Mete Kingi) was glad to see the Minister, especially as it was near Parliament. Work was going to be carried out in the river. He hoped nothing would be done to the river frontage so far as it affected Putiki. The Natives were dependent on the river for firewood, no bush being near. His second word was, do not let the Government agree to a survey on the application of one or two, but wait for the majority to express a wish for it. He did not want Government to interfere with auy survey that he paid for himself on land of his own. He also wanted a number of the old land purchases to be looked into, to see if they were correct. If not, to have them rectified. Utiku welcomed the representative of the new Government. If he was prepared to do away with the bad laws of the old Government he was welcome. He would say, no sales of land, no leases, mortgages, or surveys. He had seen notices of land offices established in the Colony to look into old land purchases. He thought it a good thing if such an office was established in Wanganui. If it was established soon, all would be well, but if not there would be trouble, as he was a bad man when roused. Katene again rose and supported Utiku, saying he was opposed to all sales or surveys. Mete Kingi said the Putiki Native reserve extended from the bridge along the centre of the river down to its mouth ; thence along the beach to the Kaitoke stream, up the stream to Mawhai's pole, along No. 2 line to the bridge. The deepening of the river was a good work—let it be done ; but they did not want tolls to be levied on the canoes when tbey went out to fish. They also wanted the right to collect firevrood from the river. They had been told that the Government claimed the land from the Landguard Bluff to the sea, but they had always supposed that it belonged to the Natives, and still thought so_ They were anxious to obtain an office, the same as they had in Napier, as they had been told the Napier office was

supported by the Government. Tlv whole of the Wanganui block had been sold for £IOOO, and ever since they had been grumbling at the price. Too much land was sold for the money. They did not make any claim, but if the number of acres in the block was reckoned up. they could then see whnt they ought to have received. If this compensation was not granted in his day, his children would continue to agitate. Wihari Turoa said the former speakers had advocated the stoppage of surveys, but he thought there was no 'land here left to operate on. All the Natives were selling as fast as they could. The fault was not in the Europeans buying, but in the Natives for selling. The speaker then referred to a personal matter, respecting a claim to a phare in Waipakura Reserve. The Hon. J. Sheehan thanked them for their reception. It was quite true he had postponed his visit to Wanganui, ; but they knew perfectly well he had not been idle. When lie took office he was determined to see the whole of the Island and the people before meeting Parliament again. Therefore, while he admitted be:u'.; late in visiting "Wanganui, he did not admit it wn- .mv r.'tonce, as some place had to be Inst. Wanganui w-s the best place to be last, as it was near Wellington, an 1 moreover, was occupied by a loyal people. He wouh' Ihinkover what they had said, and would tell them liis th- 'ights in the evening. Karaitiana gave salutations to tribe and to Mete 'Kingi. It was not for him to re. !y to what had been said, as he did not know much about some of the matters. They were a peaceful tribe, and had always been living at peace with the Government. He had not always been loyal, but their loyalty was known. The Queen had sent them tokens, but he had received none. The Europeans heingtheir friends, belonged to them. He had always had the interest of the Island at heart, and in Parliament had never spoken for himself, but for the Maori race. For this reason he had always been opposed to M'Lean, and he (Karaitiana) did not think M'Lean was right. They (Wanganuis) had believed in M'Lean, but lie {Karaitiana) considered M'Lean was deceiving the Maoris. There were three Native members in the Parliament at one time. M'Lean put them up. These three members voted for the bringing in of more Pakehas (immigration policy). These Pakehas were their riches, because they had supported the men who brought them into the country. They had signed the treaty of Waitangi and took the blankets. (Mete Kingi—Yes, we had the blankets.) He had not signed the treaty. He had no interest in the treaty, or in the Queen's representative, or in tli£ missionaries. He was one of the old stock. After getting these riches (immigrants) some of their party had turned against the riches they had invited : they sr>t up a king, and then went and killed Europeans at Waitara. He had nothing to do with that. After they had failed they struck a new line, and set up a new religion, and sought the aid of higher power to destroy the Europeans they had themselves invited to the country. He thought such action was wrong, and he had gone to the Queen's side. He had been standing in his place in Parliament, working for the Maoris, for seven years, and now his day had come. The speaker then referred at length to his action in Parliament, and concluded by stating that some of the talk he had listenad to was very like Te Whiti's. [Mete Kingi denied being influenced by Te Whiti.j Karaitiana finished by saying—" Listen, I will not rest till I have put down this man Te Whiti." The visitors present were then invited by Mete Kingi to partake of the dinner he had provided. The repast was excellent, everything being served in European style. Mete was most assiduous in attending to his guests, and really his hospitality was most profuse. Several ladies from town (Mrs. R. W. Woon, Mrs. Hardcastle, and Mrs. B. K. Taylor) graced the table with their presence. Toasts were not neglected, Karaitiana proposing the

Queen, and afterwards the health of Mr. Bryce, as chairman of the Native Petitions Committee. The healtli of the Native Minister and of Mete Kingi also received duo attention. After dinner the meeting adjourned till the evening. Business was resumed shortly before eight o'clock, and Mr. Sheehan inquired if they had any more qnestiong to ask, so tliat he might reply in full. Haimoana asked for the same privilege in purchasing ammunition as the Pakehas. Katene endorsed this request, and again urged the importance of having a Native office in Wanganui. He also wished the Minister to give effect to the decisions of the Maori Committee, and thought that all transactions in Native lands should be conducted by wise men chosen from among the Natives. lie wanted another chamber in Parliament for the Maoris : also, a Maori Governor. The Hon. J. Sheehan then rose to address the Natives. He again thanked them for their reception, and said he was glad he had visited Wanganui, and heard what they had to say. He was not frightened at the number or magnitude of their questions, as he preferred to hear everything, whether pleasant or otherwise, for the salvation of the country depended on the liberty of dach race to speak their minds. By their own account they were a sick people, and had sent for a doctor. He had come and would administer some medicine. They mr.st remember, however, that one of the essential qualities of the best medicine was its nasty taste, sufficient to make a man wrinkle his face. He would ask them to listen quietly, and take the medicine he was going to give them in good faith that it was being administered for their benefit. The first point was liberty to buy powder. He thought there should be some relaxation of the restrictions, as tho amount now allowed to be sold to them was smaller than in any other part of the colony. He would think the matter over, and let Mete Kingi know. The next point was the establishment of a Governor for the Maori people. He could not quite make out the meaning of that request. Many years ago they had met in the Waikato, and made a Kawana, whom they called their Kinir. The result was Waitara, killiug of Europeans, a lengthy war, and tho taking of their land in payment. lie thought they had had quite enough of a Governor for the Maoris after that. The Native Minister for the time being was the Maori Kawana, and had charge of their interests. He was tho Native Minister, and was a very jealous Kawana, and would take it much to heart if they preferred strange gods to him. The very essence of the salvation of tho Native race was in their becoming one with the Europeans. The talk of a Maori Kawana meant keeping the races apart; therefore he could not listen to such a request, nor give it any attention. Tho request for another room for Natives visiting Parliament he would inquire into. They had one room, a very good room he thought, but if it was not sufficient for the purpose another would be provided. In reply to several Natives who had spoken of reserves and Government purchases, it opened a very large question. He would say to them what he had said to them on the East Coast when in 1873 he was invited to conduct the Native cases. He told tho Maoris there that he would take up cases against private persons, would decline any case against the Government. Where they had a case against tho Government, the Parliament was the proper place to make inquiries into it. His advice therefore was, if they had any claim, briug it before Parliament, and he would promise that they would receive a fair hearing and fair play. Tho Government were not afraid of being found to be in the wrong. If it was proved they were wrong, compensation would be made. It was useless asking him to investigate claims, as ho was only the servant of Parliament; but he promised that any claims should receive attention. Among tho

inany questions asked were some small and some large, wouia reply to the small ones first. The claim of Sfioani Meti and his brother to some reserve north of the -aitotara, on account of their mother, should be referred . Major Brown, who was the officer in charge of that dastnct. Mawhai had referred to a balance of £SOO due on account of the purchase of the Wanganui block. This the first he had heard of the matter, but if, as they mleged, the money had been paid to Sir D. McLean, it irould stallbe in the hands of the Government. He would i j 6 and Mawhai to call upon him, so that he Jpuld P ut *"5" statements in writing, and see to it when bef got to Wellington. With respect to the Harbour Ifoard works interfering with their reserve : Last year Parliament passed a bill enabling the Europeans to obtain latge sums of money to be expended in deepening the river and improving the harbour. Such a bill was not peculiar in Wanganui, but some thirty other bills for harbours in other parts of the colony had been passed. So iar as he knew the proposed works would do them good instead of harm. The result would be a great increase of tn&c,.better business, and improved value of all lands. They had seen the effect of the railways in increasing the ▼alue of the land, and the same result would follow the harbour works. They make two objections to the works : first, that they objected to pay any charge on boats going outand coming into the harbour. He d'd not think they had any boats. They had canoes for fishing, and he would jPQarantee them against^any charge being made on canoes. Europeans had 510 intention of charging on canoes, and if they did he would pay it himself. The next point was the collection of firewood. That would not be •ffected in any way. No matter what the Harbour Board oiu, there would always be freshets in the river, and they could always collect the driftwood as before. The question of interference with their fishery rights was important. He would explain their rights under the Treaty of Waitangi. 3.he claim of all persons holding under European title to land stops short at high water, but in the treaty exception was made in favour of the Natives. They surrendered the sovereignty of the land to the Queen, who in return promised them possession of their lands and fisheries. So far then as the harbour -works may be said to affect their right, they were justified in asking for an inquiry, and so far as their rights were ine ' as Minister, would protect them. When the works commenced he would make inquiry, and if it was found that harm would come to them, he would bring the matter before the Harbour Board. That body had no wish to injure or interfere with the Natives. He had been asked to sanction the stoppage of all sales, surveys, and mortgages by three of the speakers ; a fourth speaker wanted power to sell to whom he liked. It -was difficult to know which to believe—the roan who ■wanted to sell, or the others who did not. To stop mortgages was an idle request, as the Act of 1873 forbids all mortgages ; and if any Native has given a mortgage sirce that date, it is not worth the paper it is written on. Now os to the stoppage of sales. They might as well ask for the stoppage of marriages, or for a law to prevent the pro-creation of children, as he had as rrujch power for the one as the other. The Natives would sell their land; at least that had been liis experience. Then, as to surveys. Why,all the laud available they had was being surveyed ■now. Then they asked for power to sell to whom tliey liked. The result of such a measure would be that in ten 3*ears' time they would not have an acre left, and instead of being chiefs and wealthy men, they would become the hewers of wood and the drawers of water for the Europeans. Their salvation was the power to sell under proper control, and at a fair price. He could well understand their desire to have sales stopped, as he had no doubt many sales had taken place under circumstances unfair to them. The reason was

that the laws under which those sales had been madewere bad. He could not stop sales, but he could and would provide a remedy for unfair sales. The first thin# would be to establish a Court to determine the title to the land. Hitherto the Court for determining titles had beenm the hands of Europeans. He proposed to give thispower to a Native Court, and then when the title was determined, a European judge could step in and show them how to settle the title to the land to the best advantage. As to surveys, he thought a survey should not be held at the reauest of one or two, but the same rule should apply as when they applied for a sale. The Court would sit and' decide whether the majority were in fa\ or of a survey oragainst. They must learn to *pply the same priuciple o£ a majority as the Pakehas did. For example, he held hisoffice by the will of a majority. To illustrate his meaning he would put a case. Suppose there was a block of land with ten grantees, t or three of whom wanted to sell, but the rest did not. Well, the Court would decide that the block should cot be sold. The minority, however, would have their remedy, as they could apply to have their share cut o£E. Then comes the question of being free to sell as they thought proper. Any new Act would be incomplete without provisions for sales. It was idle to ask him to stop sales, but he thought there should be some restriction. If they were equal to the Pakehas. in knowledge of the 'aw he would say, you are your own masters, do as you lii e ; but because they were not equal to the Pakehas in th<* knowledge cf the law, did not speak, the Pakeha lauguago, and consequently were dependent on other persons, he would say there should be some restriction They should properly understand what they were signing, also that in parting with their land to the Government they should retain sufficient for their support. Doing that, the Government would have done enough and to the majority would be left the questions of survey and sale. He was speaking of the law that he wa» shortly to put before Parliament, not of the law as it now stood. The next request was that he should stop the Native agents. These Native agents had been likened to pheasants, and they spoke of shooting them like pheasants. Ihey also asked him to take the money away from the Native agents, so that they should not do anv more harm. If he took theix* money away he would be breaking the law, and would be sent to gaol. The agents perhaps, did harm, but it would n&t do to shoot them like pheasants. If they killed a pheasant they could eat it, but if they killed an agent the policeman would very soon want to know all about it, and some one would stand a very good chance of being hanged. The Pakehas wer» all equal, and could do what they liked with their own money. He did not say but what some did harm, for there were both bad and good of both races. Much 'evil had been caused b> the fact that no matter how wide the path to a Native agent's office, the Maori generally preferred going to it through the public-house. Great harm had been caused by this indulgence in waipiro. He intended passing a law whereby if, say Mete Kingi desired to exclude liquors frcm this settlement he could do so. To the chief of each settlement would be given the power to regulate admission of liquor. The law will not be compulsory, but it would be for each settlement to ask for it to be brought into force. He came now to the request for Native committees to have power to pass laws for the government of the Maoris, and to p>ass laws for the approval of Parliament. Parliamrnt would never break the principle that there must be only one Parliament and ono lav.- in the country. If committees throughout the island had power to pass laws for the government of the Maoris they would all be at daggers drawn in three months. Each committee would have a different law, so that cross ing from one district to another an offence against one of these laws would be committed through ignorance. Ho would say to them as one who had fought their battle,

that the salvation of the race depended upon being one with the Europeans, and they should aim at bringing themselves on a level with the Pakehas. With local committees possessing the power they asked for. instead of being a firm united people they would be a lot of dis2°eu?™bes-, Eur °peans who are united have a proverb of divide and conquer," that is, first divide your enemy and you can easily conquer. (The fable of the bundle of sticks was then introduced.) He did not undervalue the committees. They did a great deal of good, and he was glad to see them existing throughout the island, so that they might investigate the troubles, and report to him. He would be always glad to pay every attention to the reports of such committees. Take Wanganui for instance. With a committee of say a dozen men like Mete Kin<*i the Government would be rash not to listen to their advice. He now came to the last subject, that of establishing a Maori office, but first he would ask Meti Kingi if the office they wanted was similar to those referred to in Mr. Rees' circular to them. Mete Kingi—Yes. Mr. Sheehan would then tell them that the circular did not emanate from the Government. The Parliament supplied judges, but did not supply lawyers. They knew he had spent some four years in conducting the business of Karaitiana and others at Napier, but the Govr-rnment did not pay him a shilling for anything he had done—indeed they would have paid him to go away. If they wanted legal assistance they must obtain it for themselves The circular they referred to came from Mr. Rees, who was carrying on his (Mr. Sliechan's) old business, which he had given up on taking office as Minister. He would tell them what ne thought of the matter. When he went to Napier he found the chief cause of the difficulty was the want of good advice to the Natives. If a Native wauted to sell a piece of land, the interpreter was the Pakelia's and the lawyer was the Pakeha v ;. Now Europeans are different. They each have their own lawyer to protect their interest, and he advised the Hawke's Bay Natives to copy the Pakehas. This circular came from Mr. Rees, and he said if they chose he would establish a Native Office at Wairarapa and Wanganui. He (Mr. S.) believed Mr. Rees to be a straightforward honest man in his dealings, and if they wanted a lawyer they could not do better than employ-Mr. Rees. But they must remember that if they did, they would have have to pay him themselves the same as any other lawyer. He had not dealt with small matters, such as personal claims for reserves. Such requests must be made in writing, so that lie could* take tliem to Wellington. He would •remind tbem that he had told them - that the medicine lie was goin" - to give them would perhaps be thought nasty. They must, however, believe that it was given for their good. Others might promise to give them all they asked for, but such promises could not be carried out. lie had been born amongst them, aud looked upon tliem as an equal race to the Europeans. He had done their business for 13 years, but had never bought or leased an acre of land for" himself. His hands therefore were clean, and he spoke for their good. If they stood by him he would pull them through, but if they did not then they would perhaps have some one else who would promise more and do less. Salutations to you all. Hoani Meti pointed out that while' Natives were allowed to employ lawyers in all matters of dispute, they could not take a lawyer into the Natire Lands Courts. Mete Kingi was glad to hear the words of the Minister respecting the river. Mr. Sheehan had answered all their queries, and they would take his advice. Turning to the tribe Mete said :—Listen, O Wanganuis. I consider the words of Sheehen straightforward and plain. No mistake can be made, and his words will not be broken by me. Karaitiana delivered a length}- address, which we cannot find room for, and the meeting closed about 12 o'clock.