THE GRATUITIES.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 12754, 25 September 1919, Page 5

THE GRATUITIES.

DEBATE HI THE HOUSE. LIBERALS URGE FURTHER CONSIDERATION. LABOUR SUGGESTS UNION WAGE. [F»AM Otm CORREaPONTIVSTT. ] WELLINGTON, September 24. The debate on the Government proposals for gratuities to soldiers was opened this afternoon in the House, but before the discussion started the Minister of Defence made a statement showing comparisons between the benefits and opportunities conferred on soldiers by _ New Zealand and those which were enjoyed by the soldiers of Canada and Australia, He prefaced the comparisons by explaining a couple of points about the gratuities about which some doubt had been expressed. First ho ■wished to make it clear that the gratuities did not cover the services of men on the warship Philomel. The next point related to men evacuated from England sick or wounded, but who had been in hospital for some time- When the eighteen months’ condition was provided ho was under the impression that eighteen months could cover those cases, and he was still under that impression, but if there were'cases which it dia not cover he hoped in the course of a day or two to make some arrangement to_ get over anj* difficulty that might arise. CANADIAN GRATUITIES. Coming to the question of comparisons, the Minister remarked that if Canada's war gratuities were placed on the same basis as were New Zealand’s the sura involved would amount to forty-two millions, whereas the actual amount provided was twenty millions. As to the total benefits of which soldiers in different countries could make use, in New Zealand, apart from gratuities, the soldier could obtain by wav of loan assistance £3ooo, and in special cases as much as £3850. In Australia a soldier could only get £l7lO by way of loan, while in Canada the total loan assistance was ,£2OOO, and up to tho end of 1918 the average advance to rather more than a thousand soldiers who had been assisted on the land in Canada was £260 per man. The Min-

ister explained that he had not receiveel information as to the actual amount of gratuities and assistance to Australian soldiers, but he was of opinion that the amount granted to New Zealand _soldiers would make an excellent showing in the comparison. TWO-SHILLING GRATUITY DEMANDED. Sir Joseph AA ard, in opening the clebate, pointed out the value of taking time in considering the, proposals by referring to the respective oases of a, wounded soldier remaining for a long period in hospital at Home and of one immediately evacuated to New Zealand ™ being wounded and going into hospual here. One man, be said, would benefit under the gratuities scheme much more than the other. He was fv. ad Minister had recognised

tho difficulty and was taking it into consideration, but that proved the importance of not rushing the proposals bronghtbefore the House. The leader « th ® Opposition went on to say that the National Government had been generous to the soldiers in the matter of pay and allowances, but surely, he argued, the present Government were not going , to take this generosity to point comparisons with other countries ivhen it carge to a question of gratuities. For instance, there was the question of the free railway pass which the Minister valued at £6, hut a great many soldiers did not take advantage of this pass, and he considered it was wrong to introduce it in making comparisons, ** Sir James Allen: Tho Defence Department has paid iho money, (Laughter.) *■ v * Sir Joseph Ward; Yes. It is hook entry from one Government pocket into another Government pocket. The National Government voluntarily gave these little concessions to the ‘soldiers, but that Government certainly had no haying th , e “ brought up when comparisons were being made with what Canada and Australia are giving their soldiers m the way of gratuities. SEAMEN OVERLOOKED. Sir Joseph AVard went on to express the opinion tnat the proposals for married men were not adequate, and was also emphatic that seamen in the merchant service, and especially those engaged m mine-sweeping work, should be included among tne beneficiaries of the gratuities proposal. There should be no discrimination against men who had risked their lives, although they had not been m the trenches. He could scheme refßrcnces to • nurses in the Sir James Allen; Nurses are covered. Force arC members of the Expeditionary Sir Joseph Yard continued that it Slv V\n? diSC ° Ver tWs -. Appar! . \: A - D - s Wero , not included, though they gave good voluntary scrvito. He was sorry they were left out. °° I 0" want “to Sir Joseph Ward ; I don’t want that because the bulk of them have been paid for their services, considering that the people of New Zealand have been lory generous in their contributions Sir James Allen: The Y.A.D.’s have been paid also. Sir Joseph Ward; “ Some of them got notmng, and I am informed there were V.A.D. s at Trentham Hospital who were not paid.” He objected to wounded men who re-enhsted losing the time aunng isrhich they were recovering. dam ® S - A1 ea: Tlley set eighteen months minimum. Sir Joseph Ward: “If we can elucidate point after point in this way it is satisfactory, but the statement is not clear. H e went on to say that there was great cause for dissatisfaction over the position of men who had long trainmg m camp and did their duty, but did not commence to be considered for the gratuity until they embarked. This straw-splitting was not generous- It was necessary to shear the gratuitv proposals of anything misleading. There was no soldier going on the land who got a present of it, ho had to pay for o- and , t « introduce the question of the btato help he got was misleading. Every section of the community ouo-lit th be to deal generously with

NATIONAL CABINET ETHICS. “I thipk' myself,” continued Sir Joseph Ward, “that these proposals are inadequate, and that the soldier should get two shillings instead oils 6d, which does not come to the maximum amount which I as one individual'some time ago made up my mind this couptry ought to pay. I intimated tlio amount to some of those who were associated with me. There was no opportunity in .the National Government to consider the matter. Sir James Allen; Ifc was before Cabinet. Sir Joseph Ward: This was not brought up after 1 got back. Sir James Allen: It was brought up before 'you went away and was settled. Sir Joseph. Ward: Pardon me. If you will tax your memory you will remember you came into the House and made a statement, intimating to me you did so with the authority of the .Prime Alinister. I was never consulted and, never believed that the amount was sufficient, and never was a party. Sir James Allen; To my-recollection it was brought tip in Cabinet. Sir Joseph Ward: I am perfectly certain it was not brought .up while I was there. The statement to-day cou--vinces me that further consideration is featured, so with' M doing anything to

embarrass the Government I shall move the matter be referred back to the Government for further consideration. VIEWS OB’ THE HOUSE. The Hon V. D. S. Mac Donald, in seconding the motion, said he was not pi spared to harass the Government in any way, but he believed that so far as money was concerned no people could assess the sacrifices made bv the soldiers. Ke thought that the' Minister of Defence could give him credit for desiring to work in absolute harmony with tile Government, and he doped before a decision was arrived at it would be approved by the majority or the people. It was evident from Sir James Allen’s further explanations tliat he had not definitely decided tilings m his own mind. Hie Hon J. Hanan said that quesdons liad been raised during the war whether blew Zealand was sending too many men in proportion to other parts or the Empire, but he declined to take tins stand, believing wo should do our best. This was the case with war gratuities. Could we not deal generously with the men who protected oar we nth r

Mr Dow me Stewart said that it seemed almost impossible to discover the principle on which the different estimates were based. If it werc accepted that the gratuitv was a rift ‘ V q , Ue ", t101 ? Was what wo could afford, and whether it compared favourably with other countries. The danger of delaying a settlement was that a discussion would arise outride pJr iS 5 v! 1 ar Sument that the feoldieis Association sug- ;!■'- c< ‘ less than the Government was .-dung. He believed that, the proposals met most of the claims. P LABOUR SAYS pour, shillings Mr Holland considered the Government ought to be guided bv tie theTntf 01 t le f H ° JSe ' He said that thc hahour conference in Wellington in •mrl a /f lood soldiers should in pay and allowances receive not less t Ln trade union rates for the best pa d art tans, teat the positiqn of soldm-Y t P dtT ShoUld bG e"* 11 ? improved, ren 1° mves and un ■ Jiculd be made not a matter-of fi Ut P - ligh u For tho P’TT--tm md dr? U ;! nCm " .- this P ro P osal <'nnfii. i.v’ C / aX ltlan t0 the extent of Holland: 1 would have urged you to rS4‘ a 1 ,,.0. 0 ? 0U51,t “ “'to »«*•. abominable to me than for an old man ,i° nei T r . Y? nt t0 in hi= life s ab ° ut th ° ot, " r “ ' VI « -l-"* Mr Holland: I don’t think we ouriit to talk about our sons Our sons’ lives m-JJTT w n ; ancl 1 am not sheltering m,self behind my son’s life. (Inter” S”) 5 and imnic ° rieK or * ““Hear, Mr Holland went on to denounce the war profiteering that had flourished, and added that the Labour party found no difficulty in supporting the returned soldiers’ demands for a erratuuy of 4s a day, 2s in cash and 2s in o per cent war bonds, repayable in five years. Mr Lee; Mhv not all in cash? Mr Holland: I am quite willing if the finding of all cash will not delay payment. Me unreservedly condemn tho proposal to pay 1 R 6d a dav, and wo also insist that payment 'should start at the date each soldier went into camp and should end on the date of his discharge. Sir James Allen; What! The day of discharge?

Air Holland: Yes, discharge in New inland. Sir James Allen: Oh well, the soldiers won’t thank you. Air Holland; ‘'The soldier who is still out of New Zealand and will not he discharged till he returns wilt get tho gratuity from the- date of the sinning of peace up to the date of his discharge” The member contended that the House would he wise if it resolved that the returned soldiers’ demands should ho acceded to. REMEMBER THE SAILORS. Air Poole suggested that the Alinister of Defence had been so much in touch with the mechanism of militarism that he was out oi touch with- other factors. His admissions of lack of knowledge about some details showed tho necessity of postponing the acceptance of the proposals. Air Poole made a special plea for consideration to men of the merchant service. He recalled to the House what the mercantile marine had dona in the way of service to the Empire during the ' war, and how nobly and unostentatiously the men of this service had carried' on in the face of subnirine and other perils Apart from those who had been wounded and incapacitated, the British mercantile marine had lost in dead 15.000 men We m Zealand, who were

proud of our generous treatment to soldiery should be among the first to recognise tue work of the men who had done so much to maintain our prosperity by keeping ships running with our produce throughout the war. Not one British crew had refused to sign on owing to enemy perils. He contended that any member who failed to record his vote in favour of sending back the document before the House to the Government for further consideration would be failing in proper recognition of the splendid service shown by the men who had carried on the transport service. Hon J. G. Coates; What is the diflereuce m wages between the soldi-'-and the fireman? Poole: I want to emphasise that this transport service was. alternative service and was essential equally for war and peace duties. (Hear, hear.) , SOLDIER, MINISTER’S OPINION. The Hon J B Hine agreed that the men of the transport service had rendered splendid service, but contended that the paper before the House was. not the place to recognise that service. Iho shipping companies were the ores wno should pay. and pav handsomely tor the services rendered by t!u3 merchant service in this country. He would be willing to do everything possible to help to make the shinpmg companies pay. As to gratuities generally he believed that if the Government had proposed two shillings "he Opposition would have wanted ij.l and so on. Air Alassey : To go one better 2 Hon J. B. Hine: “Yes, g 0 one better, until they aspire probably to tho dimensions and heights of the’ La-