EVENING SITTING.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 5667, 11 September 1896, Page 4

EVENING SITTING.

The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. INSTITUTE OF SURVEYORS. The Hon J. M'Kenzie moved the second reading of the New Zealand Institute of Surveyors Bill, to provide for the formation of an institute of surveyors in New Zealand and for the incorporation thereof. After a long discussion the motion was agreed to by 49 to 6. USURY PREVENTION. The Hon E. J. Seddon moved the second reading of the Usury Prevention Bill, to prevent the charging of excessive rates of interest on money, and also to amend the law relating to pawnbrokers. He did not anticipate that the House would be unanimous in passing the Bill, but very good reasons could be shown for it. He might be told that the State should not interfere in a" matter of this kind, but the State had already interfered. He held that 8 per cent was an unreasonable rate of interest, and the time had arrived when it should be reduced. The high rate of interest had, in thousands of cases, been the ruin of men, and had thrown their families on the world. No man could, in his opinion, pay 10 or 12 per cent, and either live or make money, and that being the case why should not the State step in and declare what should be a reasonable rate of interest? The State had already interfered because they had become lenders themselves, and nothing was of more advantage to the colony than the lowering .of interest ,by the Advances to Settlers Act. He would be told that there was no necessity for the present Bill in the colony,_but he held that there was necessity for it, and it had not. proved a failure in countries where it existed, namely, Mauritius, and in some States of America. He had the best authority for stating that- the system was a success in those countries where it had been tried. He explained the provisions of the Bill, and said that he should not force the Bill through committee if members thought reasonable time should be given before the Bill came into operation. All he wanted was to affirm the principle that men should not be imposed on by other men who neither

toiled nor spun, nud wluv lived by imposing on others. Th-o -Hill also dealt -with the charges made Isy pawnbrokers* which required alteration. Ho instanced tlio case of n certain pawnbroker who started bushwtss ten years ago with a capital of <£50C\ and whoso netprofit was now estimated at .£12,000. That, showed the rsito erf- interest" charged by those people Ho asserted that there xvns a necessity for passing this Bill, oal ho ] hoped to see it passed unanimously* HLv T. MackenwJs stud that no^no oiv the Opposition side of tho House would eadorse the system of extortion quoted by the Prctnier, but ho held that th<sy had. no , right to interfcjro with privute <xmtr,icts, : wn& : if they limited 'interest to S per cent '• thoyhvouid <to more harm tbntn grod to tluJsa whom: the Bill was .timfcenaed to' bewafit./ He assorted thtft the » reason, "ivliyr interest had "been is© dciir was } 'because the Government had ' intro-j dtieed legislation which Imd caused, rgreat alarm, and had be«fc the -means of J 'Vast sums being withdrawn from the, colony. Another reason lor the dearriess of money was bectiuse the "Government had absorbed all the money in the Public, Trust Office, Government Insurance and Post Office in order to carry on the finance of the colony; but a third and more potent reason was owing to the excessive taxation put on the unfortunate freeholders of the country. He condemned the Bill, and said that if the rate of interest' were fixed it would only apply to first-class securities, and poor people would get no. benefit from it. Mr Willis said that the Premier was no doubt actuated by good intentions in bringing ...down this Bill, but he held that it would nave exactly the opposite effect from that ; intended. It would have the effect of preventing large numbers of people from raising snaall sums of money that could be done at the present time. He asserted that they had no more right to say what a man should charge for money than what profit he should make in selling an article, and he shonld oppose this Bill to the utmost. He thought the Bill a ridiculous and mischievous one, and he moved that it should be read that day six months. Mr Hogo said that if ever there was necessity for a Bill of this kind it was at the present time. He strongly supported the measure, and said that it was meant to protect and benefit the poorer classes. Mr Bell said that there were two classes of money-lenders — those who lent money ou safe security at a low rate and those who lent on unsafe security at a high rate of interest. A Bill of this kind would not affect the first, while, on the other hand, the necessitous people who now borrowed from the second class would not be able to get money at all. Mr Earnshaw supported the Bill. The Hons W. J. Stewarij, Messrs Buchanan and Allen opposed it. Sir K. Stout opposed the Bill, and could not see any principle in it. He asked who had demanded the Bill. The only people who wanted it were those who borrowed small sums of money at exorbitant rates. He suggested that the Bill should be divided into two parts, and if the Pawnbrokers Act required amendment that could be done without bringing in a general Bill of this kind. The Hon E. J. Seddon urged that the amendment should be negatived and the Bill read a second time. This was not new legislation by any means, and he had no hesitation in " saying that cases came under his notice weekly, which demanded a Bill of this kind being passed. He knew that in passing this measure he would have the whole of the capitalists, money-lenders and monopolists against him, but he felt sure that the country would support it. Mr Meredith approved the Bill and would be happy to give it all the support he could. Mr Crowthek thought that the Bill was of a very meddlesome character, and even the Premier admitted that it should have a trial before it were given effect to. The Hon J. GK Ward said that during the last five years there had been a demand for a reduction of interest, and if they wanted the people to be prosperous they must reduce the rate of interest. It was well known that the rates of interest in New Zealand in all walks of life had been so burdensome that nine out of ten men were unable to bear them and to compete with their fellow-men. He strongly supported the Bill, and said that the time had arrived to prevent that system being perpetuated which had done so much harm in the past. Mr Phaser said that, to be logical, a clause should be inserted in the Bill compelling people to lend them money at a fixed rate of interest. He was convinced that a Bill of this kind would not benefit the poor man, but would do him an injury, and he could not, therefore, support it. The motion for the second reading of the Bill was carried by 30 to 12. The House rose at 1.30 a.m.