HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. AFTERNOON SITTING.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 4738, 1 September 1893, Page 1

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. AFTERNOON SITTING.

Thursday, Attgubt 31. The House mot at 2.30 p.ro . EXPLANATORY. In last night's division on the Licerj^ing Bill Mr James Mills was paired for Six 1 M-

-7 «w«tt«., <».fiv*-»!ia^-iu^«VrEbM«^™V3ft''s;Ew^ Stout's amendment and Mr Shera againsi it, S'r R. Stoot rose to make a personal explanation. He said he bad left the House on the previous night before th( Premier replied in tho debate on the Alcoholic Liquors Bill because he had bfea in the House till 2 o'clock after cominp off the 6teamer. T'%e day before he hac beea informed by the Premier, befort leaving for the south, that the third read' ing of the Bill would not be taken ot "Wednesday. Had an earlier date beei fixed upon he should nob have lefb Wellington. He had addressed a public mcc : : ing in Dunedin, but he denied that h< had stared up any agitation against th< Bill. Mr Seddon rjplied that Sir R. Stoat had c^me to him before he went south, and askei whit course he was going to pursue with the 8.11. He replied that the inteation of the Government wag to go through with it and have done with it, Sir R. Stout then said he was compelled to go south, and asked that the third reading should be po.tponel until he re',uraed. Jde (Mr Seldon) accordingly agreed t:> postpone ifc till Wedne3day. It waß not likely that the Government, after keeping all its business back tc get this Bill so for, would of its own accord postpone it for three days. He had chaffinglj remarked to Sir R, Stout that be supposed that while he (Sit R. Stout) was away the agitation would be going on. To that Sir R. Stout replied : "0h.n0." He (Mr Seddon) had taken it for granted that there would be something of the kind. Sir R. Stout landed in Christchurch on Saturday, and there were mass meetings there, and some meetings were afterwards called in Dunedin, at which the member for Inangahua spoke. He repeated that ho had postponed the third reading of the Bill to meet Sir R. Stout's wishes, and he thought ib would have been more generous on Sir R. Stout's part if he had waited in the House until the debate closed, as any honourable member was placed ab a disadvantage if he had to reply to another honourable member when that member was absent from the House. Sir R. Stout said tho Premier had taken an unprecedented course in repljiug on the question that the BUI do now pas 3, instead of on the third reading. He had never known that course followed all the time he had been in the House, and that was the reason he had for not remaining in the House to hear the Premier's reply. The Hon R. J. Seddon said that in replying he had followed a course that had been pursued even before he became a member of the Government. After further discussion, The Speaker, at Mr Rolleston'a inquest, promised to look into the matter as to whether, in future, debates on Bilk should nob close en the thud reading, instead of "thafc the Bill do pass." Mr Rolleston contended thafc the latter course might lead to great inconvenience. QUBSsTIONS. Replying to Mr Hogg, The Hon W. P; Beeves said he was afraid that the state of public business would nofc permit the Government to deal with the question of charitable aid reform this session. The Hon R. J. Seddon moved that the remainder cf the questions be postponed till next day, to give local Bills an opportuaity of being considered. Agreed to. LOCAL BILLS. The Dunedin Garrison Hall Trustaes Empowering Bill was committed and passed, with an amendment to the effect that tho trustees should borrow money only from the Government departments. The Bill wa3 then put through its final stages. The Egmont County Bill was committed, and met with strong opposition from several members. Mr Fish moved that progress be reported. Carried by 33 to 19. The Chrietchurch Hospital Act, 1877, Amendment Bill was committed, read a third time and passed. Mr Wilson moved the second reading of the Palmerston North Hospital and Charitable Aid Board Empowering Bill. Agree! to. The Harbour Act, 1878, Amendment Bill wa3 passed through Committee after considerable amendment. The House rose at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed ab 7.30. OTAGO HARBOUR BOARD. The amendments made by the Council in the Otago Harbour Board Empowering Bill were agreed to. NATIVE LAND PUBCHASE. The Hon J. M'Kenzie moved the second reading of the Native Land Purchase and Acquisition Bill, to authorise the acquisition of land owned by Nativeß for the purpose of settlement. He said it was generally admitted that the time had arrived when this land should be acquired for settlement purposes. He pointed out that at the present time there were seven million acres in the North Island which were unoccupied, unproductive, and doing no good to the Colony. On the contrary, these areas were simply blocking the settlement of the country. The Government had to consider whether the time had not arrived when land of this description should not be acquired in such a manner as to promote settlement, and at the same time cause no injury to the Native owners. The present Bill provided machinery this object, bufc it waa not compuhory. If the Bill passed it would give afresh start ±3 the North Island, and he had no doubt if it became law the Government would be able to obtain some large areas of land for settlement. The Bill would enable the Natives to saj that they would place those lands in the hands of the Government of the Colony to dispose of for theii benefit and advantage. The Natives would also be assured of an income nob only foi themselves, but for their children, by dis^ Dosing of those lands in Buch a manner a; would bring in a fair rent for that land One very important matter they had tc consider was the continuity of road making throughout the country, whicr bad hitherto been a great difficulty witt the local bodies. He had no hesitation ii saying that it' this Bill passed it woulc prove beneficial, not only to the Colony bub to the Natives themselveß, and h( reminded the Natives that they could noi much longer withhold their lands fron settlement. The Natives musb either b< prepared to survey the land themaelvei or hand it over to the Crown, and th< present Bill proposed to deal with eucl lands if they were handed over. Aftei explaining the various provisions of th< Bill, he said ifc would be submitted to th< Native Affairs Committee for its considera iion, and that being the case he hoped th< House would agree to the second reading, Captain Rctssell differed so entirely from the policy of the Government or Native matters that he should nob criticisi the Bill in detail. He had heard th< Minister say thafc the Natives should no delay this matter iill next year, but hi asked why they should nofc delay ifc til next year. If the Government wanted tc have a satisfactory Eill passed it shoulc have brought ifc down early in tha seasicn instead of in its last stage. He held tha if the Natives were to be kept in leading strings, as was proposed by thia Bill, thez their doom waa sealed. They were fcoh that the Bill was not corapiileory, but i the Natives did nofc choose to do what th< Government told them, they should nofc d< anything else, and that was soiike compul sion thafc he did not know what else it was He did not think ifc right ot" Parliament t< take away the Natives' right; conferred ox

: b them by the Treaty of Waitangi. The | Minister had told them that; Native land I ' Bpecul-vtorß had done a great deal of harm, a but he contended that all the calumnious 3 charges made againafc Native land specuj lators could be made with equal force I I against Government purchase agents, and, X j although he did not wiah to defend land i ! specula l ors, ho aeserted that if they were 3 to revert to Government land purchase - agents, the Natives would not benefit co l much as if tbeir land was bought by 6peaui j latora, as the latter would pay more than - j would be paid by the Government agents. - j He held that they conld not compel ths 3 Nativeß to dispose of their lands if they 3 did no*; chooEe to do so. Mr Mitchelson said it had been stated I that the Bill was not compulsory, but after i reading ifc very carefully he asserted that $ no one could tay that it waß voluntary in • ils character. He agreed with the Minister ) when he sa ; d that the time had ar- . rived when the Natives could net I much longer be allowed to own such I large blocks of unoccupied land, as tbey 5 wore doing. He ventured to say that r there was a large number of Natives who ; did not understand the Bill, which was , very drastic in its character. The Go- ) verament should have taken care to have i the Bill translated and circulated very . widely amongst the Natives. Ho should . advisa the Government not to proceed : further with the Bill this session than the V second reading. He was convinced that : the Natives would feel bo strongly that i» the Bill was not in the interests of the ', Native people that they would uee every ■ effort ts prevent ifc3 becoming law. If i the Government was prepared to insert ! a clause to the effect; that the Bill was not compulsory, bufc voluntary, ■ it would lighten the labour of the L Native Affairs Committee very coai eiderably. i The Hon R. J. Seddon was pleased at • the tone of Mr Mitchelaon's remarks. This '■ was one of the most difficult questions for i any Government to deal with. They had } to endeavour to do justice to the Native i race and also do juatice to the European settlers of tho Colony. Hitherto no atI tempt had been made to have the rights " of tha Natives preserved, and a fat value . given for their land. Tho present Bill [ propose i to appoint a Board to act 1 fairly and impartially to the Natives, 1 and to put a fair value on their land. Thai Board was to consist of the SurveyorGeneral, the Commissioner of Taxes, the Commissioner of Crown Lands of the dis- • tricfc, the Native member of the district, ■ and a Native owner to be appointed by the Chief Judge of the Native Land Court. He admitted that the Bill was not so clearly drawn aB it might ba with respect 1 t3 acquiring land from the Natives, and ; said it was not intended to be compulsory • at all. The Bill compared very favour- • ably with the existing law, inasmuch as it ' was provided that the first thiDg to be done was to assess the value of the land, and the Natives would then be asked whether they would sell their ; lands, or wished the Government to dis--1 pose of them under the provisions of the Land Act. The Bill would also allow them to settle on their own lande, and would remoye disabilities from which they 1 suffered at the present time. Anyone L travelling through the North Island at praeent would admit that the settlement of that island was retarded owing to the vast tracts of Native lands that were locked up. There was uo necessity for postponing the Bill, and the sooner the 1 Natives had an opportunity of disposing of ' their lands the better it would be for all parties. The Government had no wish to • forca the Natives, but if they found that they were getting fair value for their land the scheme would become popular, ' and the Government would have many '■ applications afterwards. He held that it would ba wise for the Natives ' to assist the Government in giving this Bill a fair trial. There was no intention of doing them any injustice, but they muat • all admit that the time had arrived when ■ something should be done in this direction. The Government did not; agree with ' Captain Eussell that there should he free trade in Native lands, but it would not deny to the Natives that they should have fair value for their lands, and that was the ' whole principle of this Bill. He hoped • that both sides of the House would unite in passing a Bill that would promote settlement, and at the same time do justice to the Natives themselves. Mr Kapa opposed ths Bill, and would do so when it went to the Native Affairs L Committee. j ' Sir R. Stout said the House should not forget that land for the Maori was everything, and therefore they should deal with !• the Maori race in a far kinder manner 1 than they would with Europeans, and not • bring in a Bill of too drastic a character. ■ They must all admire the ability with ■ which the Minister for Lands opened the L debate; but if they thought this Bill • would Bettle the Native question they > would be grievously disappointed. His 1 opinion was that all the good there waa in 1 this Biil waa taken from the Native • Land Act of 1886, and when it departed • from that Act it was not fair to the ' Maori people. The Bill clearly provided • that if the Maoris did nob sell or : lease their land it would be hung up ' like Mahomet's coffin. The Maoris conld 1 do nothing with it. The Bill did not "' exactly state that, but there was no mis- } taking its meaning. The Bill also pro- • vided that the Government was not bound i to give Maoris cash for their land, but I could give them bonds bearing 3£ per cent 1 intereat. The Bill would not effect a " settlement of the Maori question, and 5 would not promote the settlement of land. 5 He held that they had no right to force 7 the Maoris to lease their land on eternal 3 lease, but they should be allowed to lease 6 their land under tho perpetual lease in the j same way as undex the West Coast Settlel ment Act. They must not expect to find r the Maoris equal to Europeans in the ■ higher walks of civilisation, and must 3 allow them larger blocks of land than they • would allow to Europeans. His opinion > waß that they pould purchase half a million - acres of Native land to-morrow if they 1 could only find the money to pay for it. 1 Mr Eighardson protested against the 1 course, always purauedby the Government, 1 of referring every important Bill to a » Committee. Sir R. Stoub had plainly 3 stated the main objections to this Bill, fc which was unjust from statt to finish, and i ouch as no Minister would dare to propose b if referring to European land. The Board s that waa to asseas the value consisted 9 of three Government officials, and two • Native, but the Natives were only put r there for ornament, aa they would 9 have no say in assessing the value of c the land. Ifc waa an improper thing ■* that thiß Board should consist of Civil 3 servants who would bo dependent on the Minister of the day, and they should not 7 be placed in a position to assess land in i this way. The Bill in its present form-was b too absurd for serious consideration. There c wa9 one thing that the Minister should t realise, aud that was that unless this Bill c was altered by the Native Affairs Com--1 mittee in such a way as to make it un- > recognisable it would never pass the House. • Mr R. Thompson differed from Mr ■> Richard Eon altogether with respect to the t Bill, and said it contained no injustice to I the Natives at all. Ho agreed with the •j last speaker, however, when he protested 3 against the Board consisting of three Civil i servants, which he thought was a wrong cs principle, o Mr Buchanan bar] no desire to speak in - a paefcy spirit about this Bill. Mr Thomp- ;. eon had an.id that the Natives were very o suspicious of the Government, tub ho a thought this Bill would increase that sue-

picion, and the Government had apparently taken no trouble to make thousands of Natives in the North Island acquainted with its provisions. He was quite content that the Bill ahould go before the Native Affairs Committee for consideration. Mr Taipua said there were a great many clauses in the Bill which he regarded as objectionable. The Bill was a new departure, and quite different from anything they had had in the past. Ifc wa3 the firsb time thafc it was proposed to take lands from the Natives and lease them for 999 years. He felfc grateful to the Government for that, as they might have made it even 1000 years. Mr Eollkston thought the Nativeß had good ground for complaint that the Bill had not been circulated earlier in the session. He should like to know whether the Minister for Lands was the Native Minister, and who really occupied that office. Ifc eesmed to him that the hon gentleman was trying his prentice hand at Native legislation, and thiß might lead to considerable inconvenience. Tnera was no doubt thafc this Bill was compulsory. Ifc p'ainly told the Natives thafc they muafc either sell or lease their lands. He felfc, however, that this question must be dealt with, and thab if ib were not settled there would be considerable trouble. This Bill waß simply trifling with the question, and would not settle it at all satisfactorily. The first thing tbey should do was to ascertain the ownership of these Native lands, but the Bill altogether ignored that. The whole policy of the Government, both as regarded European and Native land, was to choose the land ib should take, and when it had got it, ifc did not know what to do with ib. Our whole policy for some time in Native land had been very confused, and this Bill waa utterly valueless. They wanted a Commission composed of the highest legal talent, combined with the beßt knowledge of Maori titles, to deal with this question. Mr Cadman referred to the great difference of opinion that existed amongst members for the North Island with regard to the Native question. Mr Mitshelson hail stated that the Bill waa compulsory, but he did not show in what way. To hiß (Mr Cadman's) mind, the weakest spot in the Bill waa thafc it was not compulsory. He held thab the Natives had on the whole been paid a fair price for their land. The present Bill did nob propose to deal with all Native lands in the Colony. Th 9 proposition was to fc&ka land wherever ifc was required for settlement. They had two classes of Natives to look after; one cla-s was well able to look after itself, bufc there was a large class not able to do co, and it was tho duty of any Government to look after thoße people and guard their interests. He did nob think that the Natives had much to complain about in this Bill, and when ifc emerged from the Committee he had no doubt that ifc would be a useful measure. One defect; in the Bill was tbab there was no alternative proposal to selling or leasing land, and that should, he thought, be remedied. He held that it they were going to tax Natives they should give them the same privileges as Europeans. The Hon J. Carroll thanked those members who had discussed the Bill apart from party spirit. The principle of the Bill was that where the Government ascertained that there was an area of land desirable for settlement, ifc should proclaim such area. After doing so it should form a Board to ascertain the value of the laud, which should then be disposed of, either for 6ale or lease, under the land laws of the Colony. The Bill was not compulsory, as had been stated by several members. Taking the speeches of those who opposed the Bill, there was nothing very serious to reply to, b\it he held that freetrade in Native lands, which was advocated by the member for Hawke's Bay, waa not desirable. Ha did not go so far as to say there should be no freetrade in Native lands, bufc ifc should ba confined to land held under special titles which were individualised. Sir E. Stout had objected to the eternal lease with respect to those lands, bufc he hoped that his colleague the Minister for Lands would not give way on this point. Mr Lake thought the Bill would have to be considerably altered by the ETative Affairs Committee before ifc could be afc all acceptable. Mr Sheba regarded the Bill as a forward movement, and he thought the Natives wouli get a much fairer price for their land under it than they had hitherto done. He thought that unless it were made compulsory the Bill would be useless. Mr HOUSTON also thought the Bill would be useless unless it were made compulsory. He supported the Bill, and would do his beat to make it a proper measure. Mr W. Kelly was not sure whether the Bill would benefit the Colony or not. He did nofc believe in this legislation afc all, and thought the Natives should have a free hand in dealing with their lands. The Hon J. M'Kenzie replied briefly to the various arguments against the Bill. He said the reason he had charge of the Bill was because for some time past he had had charge of the Native Land Purchase Department. He could not underatand how honourable members who approved of sale for cash objected to eternal lease, and held that by that lease the Natives would have an assured income. The Government, however, would not be unreasonable, and if the Natives preferred perpetual lease the Bill could be amended in that respect. The motion for the second reading was agreed to. The House rose at 1.20 a.m.