PARLIAMENT.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 4706, 26 July 1893, Page 1

PARLIAMENT.

TPkb Preso Arbooiation.l HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, July 25. AFTERNOON SITTING. Tho House met at 2.30 p.m. LEAVE. Further leave of absence for a week was granted to Sir Georgo Grey on account of illness, and to Mr Mitchelson, for a week, owing to urgent private affaire. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Saunders, The Hon W. P. Reeves eaid the object of tho Workmen's Wages Bill was to protect tho wages of all olasseß of workmen, but if further provisions were thought necessary for their protection, they would receive consideration. Replying to Mr J. Kelly, The Hon W. P. Rbeveb said he would consider the question of making provision for securing proper accommodation for shearers and other employees in shearing sheds. Replying to Mr Hogg, whether, in making advances to settlers on the security of their permanent improvements, would the Government place leaseholders upon the same footing as freeholders, The Hon J. G. Ward Baid this matter had received consideration, but at present all be could say was that it was unlikely the request would be agreed to. Replying to Mr Tanner, The Hon J. M'Kenzie said he feared it would be impossible to deal with the codlin moth peek by legislation this session, as tbe views of settlers were bo diverse on it. Replying to Mr Shera, The Hon W. P. Reeves said the police had received instructions to suppress such barbarous exhibitions aB prize fights. Replying to Mr Palmer, The Hon J. G. Ward eaid the Government could not allow farmers the privilege of obtaining fencing wire free of Customs duty. Replying to Dr Newman, The Hon J. Carroll said Tawhaio had returned part of -the pension granted to him by Mr Cadinan as a question of policy, and he would not ace pt it any more. . Replying to Mr E. M. Smith, The Hon R. J. Seddon said the only circular issued by Mr T. F. Rotheram, Locomotive Superintendent on the Government railways, was t_ tbe effect that broken service would count in tbe same way as continuous service for promotion. Mr Fish moved the adjournment of the Houae, and spoke at some length on the question of the Fernhill railway, claiming that the Railway Commissioners had no claim to tho railway, and asserting that Sir R. Stout was really the owner of the line, through being a creditor. He urged that Sir R. Stout should not obtain a preferential advantage over the other creditors with the assistance of the Government. Sir B. Stout seconded the motion, and said it was better that this matter should have been brought before the House than that it should have been talked about in the lobbies behind his back, and insinuations made against him by Mr Fiah. He might, if he chose, refer to certain entries in the Dunedin Harbour Board's books regarding bribery aUeged against the honourable gentleman. [Mr Fish : I shall second any such motion, or any other you like to move.] He went on to explain that Mr Logan had bought for a certain sum, and borrowed from his (Sir R. St.ut's) firm, who held the first mortgage; but thore were also Becond and third moi _j*ages against the line. All that had had been asked for was that the Government, as practically the trustees for the the private Company who owned the line, ehould hand the line t> this private Company to con.truct. This had been brought forward by Mr Fish to have a personal fling at himself because they did not agree in politics or in anj thing else. He suggested that tbe Bill when it came before the House should go before an impartial Committee of Opposition members, to go into the mattor fully. After further discussion the motion for adjournment was lost. THE FINANCIAL DEBATE. Mr Parata resumed the debate on the Financial Statement. He said Native I legislation was a serious matter, and he I thought two sessions would be well spent in dealing with it alone. The Natives were quite in the dark aa to Native legislation, and it. was due to them to have more information. He spoke at some length on the Native land question, and said that seeing the Natives represented 45,000 people, they should have a Minister to represent them instead of the Native Departmentbeing abolished. He regretted that Mr Carroll had nob been fully appointed to eucceed Mr Cadmau as Native Minister, as he believed he would be acceptable to tho Native people. Mr Carroll at present had no power at all, and he was Native Minister in name only. The House rose at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The Houee resumed at 7.30 p.m. The Hon E>. J. Seddon referred to the difficult position in which he was placed on tbe present occasion, inasmuch as Mr Rolleston, as the leader of the Opposition, had abrogated his position to his friend the member for Ellesmere. He (Mr Seddon) had been twitted with not having sufficient courage to reply to the speech made by Sir John Hall, but a good general chose bis own time to act, and he had chosen the present opportunity. The debate had not been unduly prolonged, and it was only natural that members on both sides should be anxiou. to place their views before the country on such an important occasion. He had no desire to be personal in what he was about to say, and he hoped that when he sat down there would be no heartburnings. As to the financial policy of the Government, that had scarcely been touched at all by the Opposition, and this placed him in a difficult position. He would indeed assert tbat if two- thirds of the Opposition speeches had been analysed they would be found to be rather in favour of the Financial Statement than otherwise. No apology waa required from eitber side of the House for the length of this debate, and there was no foundation whatever in the statement that the debate had been prolonged owing to a side issue. He had heard that Mr Rolleston was waiting for him (Mr Seddon) to speak, and further that Mr Rolle-ton would not have addressed the House unless the Premier had done so. He (Mr Seddon) held that if he had spoken after Sir John Hall he would have been accused of a deßire to bring the debate to a close. He regrett.d that the Colony was about to lose the services of Sir John Hall, and he desired to compliment that honourable gentleman on the speech he made on the Statement, At the Bame time he (Mr Seddon) could not withdraw a single word he had said respecting Sir John Hall's old colleague, a gentleman whom he (Mr Seddon) greatly respected, although he differed from him politically. _ The records of 1879 would not allow him to forget it, even if he were willing ti do so. He asserted that Bince 1879 there had been borrowing and reckless expenditure, and the land of the people had been partad witb. He had been asked why he referred to this matter in his Auckland speech. It waß because ib had been eaid that when a Liberal Government went out of office it was weak in finance, and that the country was robbed. He maintained fehat he was correct in saying that tbe liability quoted by Sir H. Atkinson in 1879 was a fictitious one, and he could prove, on the authority of Mr Oliver, aformer Public Works Ministar, that j in 18?. there was £1.230,000 of liability

_____-_____l____H-_--_-_----i ill n i.imn as againßt the purchase of Native lands. He was prepared to provo by returnß that Sir H. Atkinson over-stited those liabilities in varions ways; that J. 30,000 had been quoted for the purchase of Native lands instead of J. 15,00 0; that Sir H. Atkinson had stated that one liability of .6200,000 existed which should only have been _841,450; that ,6700,000 stood against the Public Works Fund which should have been .8440,000. When Sir John HaU asked him to revere Sir H. AtkinßOn'a memory, he Bhould also allow him to cherish memories of old friendships — Messrs Macandrew, Sheehan and Ballance, and another well-known and respected public man, Sir G. Grey, who waa not in the House this session. He then quoted from documente at great length in support of his contention that Sir H. Atkinson had over - stated the liabilities in 1879. Tho reason why he had told the< people of Auckland about these overstated liabilities was because it had been so frequently asserted tbat the finance of the Grey Government had nearly wrecked the Colony. He also justified the assertion he made in Auokland that the Atkinson Government bad indulged in borrowing and squandering. Referring to the statement he had made that 14,298 people had left the Colony during the two years of the last Atkinson Administration, he quoted returns to prove-that. What had been said about it was: — "Let them go; they will* be good advertising agentß for the Colony." He thought, however, it would be a bad day for the Colony when its population left itß shores. Coming to tho Financial Statement, he should not deal with the details of the Budget, but would leave tbat to his able lieutenants. And here he desired to acknowledge the compliments that had been bestowed on Mr Ward for hia successful Budget. He defended his Public Works policy, and eaid that up to tbe present the Government had met all its liabilities, and still had something to go on. (Sir John Hall : But what will you have in March ?) Well, the revenue was keeping up, so that there was nothing to fear in that respect. The present Government had also to meet a sum of .£153,000 for contracts entered into by the late Government, and which the present one was in no way responsible for. He defended the Government from the repeated charge of living on released sinking fund, and Baid the total amount it had obtained from that source for three years was a paltry _845,000; whilst on March 31 there was no less than .2177,000 to the credit of the Public Works fund. Referring to the graduated Land tax and the criticism made against it that it would cause alarm, he said he did not think the proposals would injure the Colony in any way, and he quoted from a speech made by Mr Scobie Mackenzie to the effect that the graduated tax was a sham, and would not have the effect of bursting up large estates that was claimed for it. If that was the opinion hold by the Opposition, how could it now say that the tax would injure tbe Colony P What the Governmont wished to accomplish by this tax was that there should be no aggregation of large estates. Sir John Hall had Btated that the Government had dealt unfairly by the country in favour of the towns, but he quoted from returns to prove that the country would fare better under the Government proposals than the towns. The Opposition admitted that the proposals had been framed bo as to be fair to both the country and the towns, and the Opposition would find that to be the case. Referring to Sir R. Stout's speech last week, he said that hon gentleman was in accord with the Government policy on all points excepting the graduated tax and the exemption of improvements; but he was not opposed to the principle of exempting improvement., only he feared that the finance might suffer through it. He had lately visited several parts of the country, and he found improvements taking place, and more labour being employed, which showed the wisdom of the Government policy. The Government did not wish to destroy confidence or to cause alarm, but it must be progressive in it. taxation. He next referred to one of the most important questions of the day, that of dealing with Native lauds, and he hoped the House would not prorogue till an Act had been passed dealing fairly with the Natives, and at the same time promoting settlement. That brought him to the large question which no Government had yet dealt with, namely, that of taxing Native lands. He was surprised to find that tbe Natives themselves did not object to taxiog their lands in districts where they would get the benefit of roads from public works. Referring to the question of the Railway Commissioners, he thought the Government's proposal in that respect was one of the brightest spots in tbe Budget, and it would restore to the people the power to deal with property which cost fifteen millions of money, and would also put into the hands of the representatives of the people power which should never have been taken from them. One of the first acts of the Railway Commissioners had been to increase the salaries of higher officials; but no increase was made in the lower grades of the service. The Government was compelled to reduce ita expenditure, but the Commissioners were increasing it. No details were given to the Government as to the way the money was spent, although it was repeatedly applied to for further votes. After referring at great length to the whole question, he said the Government did not intend to abolish the Commissioners, but it did intend to put a Minister on the Board, in order that Borne information might be given to the House bb to the expenditure of the department. A great deal had been said against the construction of public - works on the cooperative principle, but he asserted that if they went back to the old contract system, it meant going back to borrowing, and borrowing meaDt squandering. The co-operative system did not require a large loan or balance at the bank; and as to the argument that the works cost 25 per cent more than by the contract system, they cost no more by co-operation. In fact, tbe earnings of even first-class men were very little more than those of men who earned current wages. If they dispensed with the co-operative system, the result would be disastrous in maDy respects, and the Colony would be flooded with men looking for work. He thought it could not be denied that the Colony was in a fairly prosperous condition, and the Government policy was meant to encourage people. Ac to the purchase of the Cheviot estate, he would simply say that the Government was called upon to make that purchase, and was advised to do so by the Commissioner of Taxes. With bo many advantages also from the settlement point of view, the Government waa justified in purchasing the property, and he felt satisfied that it would come out all right. Ha held that what was contained in the Budget, namely, putting taxation on the shoulders of those who were able to bear it, and the exemption of improvements, were both steps in the right direction. Tho graduated tax would cause no alarm in the Colony, and the Government was protecting labour by its labour proposals. As the world progreased tbey must advance with it. The Government had now placed its proposals fairly and fully before the country, and it would not go back, but was determined to stand or fall by its policy. (Mr Seddon then resumed his seat, his speech having occupied exactly three hours.) Ms Rolleston said that the Premier had jost talked for three solid hours, and that be e/idont'y followed bis usual habit, i

and his own side even apr eared to thini ho waa stonewalling. The speech was full of* wind and sound and foam, but there was very little in it either in facts oi figures. Mr Seddon had stated that he (Mr Rolleston) had pnt him in a fals. position by not speaking before, and statethat he abrogated his poaition, but he hoped the Premier would in future waii till he had aßked him for his advice as tc hiß action. It was fitting and propor thai Sir John Hall should open the debate, a. he was a veteran statesman who was well qualified to do so, and the Opposition was perfectly satisfied with tho way the honourable gentleman had performed his task. Mr Seddon had stated that there had been no criticism of the Budget, bui he contended tbat there had been ample debate on it, and the debate had shown that it was perilously weak. The Premiei had really said nothing about the Budget in his lengthy Bpeech, and yet he had told them that if he had spoken before it would have closed the debate. If that were so, why had the debate not closed now ? He deprecated raking up the history of past Governments as the Premier had been doing, but he would simply say that the verdict of the country was against the Grey Government in 1879, and that the statements made by the Government of which Sir John Hall was head were true. It was a discreditable statement for Mr Seddon to make, that Sir H. Atkinson had raised bogus liabilities in order to discredit the previous Government. He (Mr Rolleston) asserted that there were £2,200,000 of outstanding liabilities when the five million loan wae raised, and if the loan had not been raised there wonld have been serious financial difficulties. In addition to that there were .£900,000 of liabilities for land purchases which had to be met. He quoted from a speech of the late Mr Macandrew, who stated that it had been charged against the Grey Government that the five million loan had been forestalled. Mr Macandrew aiid, "Of course it was forestalled, and a good job too." As to Mr Seddon's statement about population leaving the Colony, the fact was chat the Atkinson Government had introduced a system oi economy after a period of public worke expenditure, but what did they find at the present? Why, there were more unemployed in the Colony now than ever before. In Christchurcb alone he had Been it stated there were nearly 700 men out of work. This state of things was largely owing to the ridiculous policy of the Government, also to its bunkum cries and mob oratory. There had not been a single new industry started for the laßt two or three years, and in many cases men only obtained two or three dayß' work in a week where formerly they got five or eir. The fact was that the industrial classes were beginning to find Ministers out, notwithstanding all they ciaimed in this direction. Referring, to Mr Seddon's remarks on the railways, be said the country recognised that the Government of the day did well on the whole in placing the railways in the hands of the three gentlemen at present on the Board. It was not fair to suppress the fact that the Government did its best to get a qualified man from Home before it appointed the present Commissioners. He held that it was degrading for Ministers of the Crown to go on to every platform and attack high officers of the Crown as the present Government attacked the Commissioners; and when it came that either tbe Commissioners or the Premier should go, his opinion was that the verdict of the country would be tbat the Premisr should go and not the Commissioners. As to the increased expenditure of the Commissioners, which the Premier made co much of, the Commissioners themselves explained that it was owing to increased traffic and damage from floods ; and could any sensible men condemn them on that score ? The Premier had complained that the Commissioners incurred enormous expenditure, and submitted estimates which no one could explain, but if bo, more shame to Mr Seddon, for it was his business by law to make himself acquainted with these estimates. He combated at some length Sir R. Stout's arguments on the subject of Parliament having control of the railways, and said the Act appointing the Commissioners was deliberately passed by Parliament, and it would be a great wrong to alter it without consulting the people. He thought the Opposition had every reaßon to be satisfied with the debate to ebow the weakness of the Government finance, even if they only had to rely on the speechea on their own side of the House ; but the fact was that the remarks of many members on the Government side absolut.ly pulled the policy of the Government to pieces. He paiticularly referred to the speeches made by Sir R. Stout and Messrs Blake, Earnshaw, Carncross, M'Guire and B. Thompson. The general impression left on his mind by the Government finance wa. that it was a great muddle. The Government had now introduced a fresh system of taxation, Buch as it had not dared to introduce for some ten years, and the effect of which it utterly failed to comprehend. The verdict of the country would, he felt sure, be that the incidence of taxation was not equitable. Even the Colonial Treasurer himself had not grasped it, and he apparently did not know how it was all going to turn out. Taxation was in no way relieved to those who earned their bread by the sweat of their brow. The middle classes were escaping taxation, whilst the wealthy would have to bear additional burdens. The new taxation was also largely in favour of the towns, as was shown by Captain Russell. He saw no improvement at all in the new taxation. Banks and monetary institutions were let off by it, although the Government professed a great desire to get at those institutions. \He believed that when a radical change was made it was not in tha interest of the country to make anothei sudden change. He objected to the graduated tax as a primitive tax, and he hoped tbe Government would see its way to go back upon that. It had no right to pursue the aggrandisement of one class at the expense of another. Mr Reeves had rather incautiously told the House that Mr Scobie Mackenzie had stiffened the graduated tax, and that if he did not take care it would be stiffened further; but what a spirit in which to approach the question of taxation, and he was satisfied that the Government had not felt the effect of it. policy! The industrial classes were feeling the reßult of the taxation now, and yet he and others were attacked on every platform by Ministers for telling the people that they were being deluded by the Government . As to the .urplus, he felt that it was accidental, and not to be relied on; He waß satisfied that the Burplus anticipated for next year was not such aB to construct public works out of current revenue. Any system of public works based upon an accident _l surplus was to his mind simply madness. The position now was that loan money was largely used, and was nearly done, and at the end of the financial year not a single sixpence would be left. If the revenue did not keep up, how then could public worke be constructed ? He did not thiuk that at present there wa3 cause for alarm, but there wus causo for prudence and caution, The whole system of taxation waß disorganised, and they want.d a strong finance and careful administration. The Treasurer had a diflicult task to perform, but this would in time be kit -flying, and he did not think thai ,£260,000 of borrowed money should be spent outhe Cheviot estate, when so manj poople could not get on tho laud. Ifc was all very well to talk about taxing Na.ive binds, but he did not think that the Premier, with all tho confidence he felt ie

: himself, would find it so easy a mattor to I deal with. The fact was that taxation . appeared to be the whip with which the : Government wished to drive everybody. He _ complained that the Government was keep- . ing back necessary information about the I public works of the Colony, and condemned . the construction of such works as tho . Greymouth- Hokitika and Thames railways, > when other and more remunerative works t were urgently required. He referred to j Sir R. Stout's speech, which was applauded I by Ministers, although he differed from i them on every important point of > their policy. What he (Mr Rolleston) 3 complained of in the Government was it . was malting stalking-horses of the working . classes, but it should endeavour to bind . all classes together. He held that tho i Opposition was trying to teach the people a r different doctrine from that preached by _ the Government, and he ventured to think I that before the elections came on the people I would be tired of being dragged through , the mire. If he never came back to the s House again he should never cease in his _ efforts to explain to the people the fallacies L that were being practised on them. . Mr Sandford moved the adjournment ■ of the debate. Agreed to. i The House rose at 1.25 a.m. i * -*