THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 5094, 30 August 1884, Page 2

THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

DEFEAT OF THE ATKINSON MINISTRY.

The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr Stout's Charge. Mr Stout moved — "That the House has < no confidence in the present Ministry." He would avoid the offensive tone adoptedby Major Atkinson the previous evening. He would avoid using words personal or offensive. Parliament had been dißßolved on the distinct issue whether the country had confidence in Major Atkinson and his policy or not. That -was the question put throughout the Colony : Will we have the continuous Ministry, or not ? The Premier said, no; but he mußt be very ignorant of the facts of the case. That was the issue put in Otago, and, in supportthereof be instanced a number of cases. If that was not the issue, why did Major Atkinson resign ? That was the issue, and on that issue the decision was given. They were simply the spokesmen of the people, "and they would not be doing their duty to the country if they allowed the continuous Ministry to remain in power. It was not enough to say that he had taken in other colleagues. It could not be contended that the Premier and the Minister of Public Works had changed because they had been a few days out of office. They would not be doing their duty to the demands of the people, as made at the ballotbox, if they allowed the Government to remain in office. The change, if a change at all, had been made out of Major Atkinson's own party, and that could not be called a change of policy. The Colony did not think it right that one Premier should be so long in office. He was in office in 1876 ; that was eight years, and it was not for the good of Parliamentary Government that one man should have office so long. It was not Parliamentary Government at all ; the system meant the ins and the outs. They required new ideas in their Government, and that could only be done by bringing in new men. That was the reason of the ins and outs in England, and if it was not followed here the system would be debased and not tend to good Government. Again, their Administration was known to have broken down. They were to spend on public works one million per year, and that had broken down. There was practically nothing left of the £3,000,000 to be spent. There was only £400,000 left for appropriation. He was told that the Railway Department was to refund £100,000, but he said that money was not to be got ; on the contrary, further expenditure would be required. There would have to be further Deficiency billß granted, and, eventually, the deficit placed on the Consolidated revenue, as had been the case before. The Harbour vote had gone, and other votes, and yet from one end of the Colony to the other there was discontent. They required new men to bring about another state of affairs, and not the same Government with a few new names in it. He alluded to the railway administration, and instanced a case of gross irregularity. Unless there was a. change, the railway system would not pay, and the discontent would be general. Local government had also broken down, and was another source of discontent. Charitable aid was most irregularly administered throughout the different parts of the Colony. It was their duty to see the people were made contented with the administration. For these and other | reasons, the feeling of the country waß i that there must be a change, and he asked , if the change they now Baw before them was any change at all ? He would not discuss the merits of the present Ministry ; he took up higher grounds. He contended they could not expect any change of policy in this Government from that pursued by the Government lately in cilice. What was wanted was n strong and stable Government, and in the Government before them he saw no element of stability. He would state why they should take the matter in hand at once,, and not allow them to state their policy. They could not expect any elianj,**' of policy from the Government as constituted. They had been two or three weeks out of office, and was that a plea in favour of a change of policy ? Major Atkinson would be untrue to himself if he wrought such a change under such conditions. The whole question was : were they to continue a- Government in power in defiance of the decision of the country ? It was said there was something new in storo for them. Major Atkinson had stated what his policy wns when he stumped the Colony from Auckland to Otago. They were bound to assume that he still stood on that platform, and he reminded thorn that in the face of that disclosure the country had gone against him. He recognised the difficulty of the situation, but inface of that fact he called on members to do their duty. They were bound to give the Governor an opportunity of getting a Government with a policy that would be acceptable to all. He acquiesced in the opinion expressed by a southern paper, that this was not a mere waste of time, as it would eventually tend to the formation, of a stable Government. He asked them to let them come to a. division, and if it

•»was against him he would pledge himself to do all in his power to facilitate tho public business. He asked members to say if they were sent here to reinstate the Continuous Ministry, or were they sent to promote a Government with hew ideas and policy, so as to cope with the depression that now existed. Mr Wakefield's Defence. The Hon E. Wakefield invited a full debate, and hoped that every member would speak his sentiments on this important subject. They would not unnecessarily prolong tho debate, but he hoped they would have a full expression of -opinion on the point. He retorted on Mr Stout the charges he made against Major Atkinson a^out the tone of speech used ' hy him. Only one single paint was mentioned as against tho Government. He ■denied that this w.as a continuation of the Continuous Ministry. Circumstances over -which no one hadeontrol had placed Major Atkinson again at the head of the Government. That Was all, and that could not be oalled a Continuous "Government. I"ew were aware what the Continuous Ministry was. Sir Julius Yogel was fiie head of the Continuous Ministry, and if he came back it would be more of a Continuous Ministry than the Government was •at present. To call this a Continuous Mm- j iatry was a misnomer. What Mr Stout really wanted was to restore that Ministry, \ and if he got his way that, and that alone, j ■would be the consequence. But, he would j ask, were all men of influence and ability i ■to De banished from those benches simply because they had been attached to that Ministry ? He hoped no one would be carried away with that cry. He agreed that new men and new blood were wanted. That was the very reason he was there. No Government ever came on to these "benches with so many new men. JHe was told the Grey Ministry ■was a new Ministry, but Mr Macandrew, who was in that Government, had been a Minister as far back as 1854. The Yogel Ministry, waa not a new Ministry ; it was an old Ministry, with, perhaps, young blood in it. That showed the value of the argument of Mr Stout's about youth and originality. Amongst some the argument was that they were too young, and that they should not hold office ; on the other hand, when it suited their purpose, they were told that they were too old for any good. He agreed that the Government did not reflect the verdict of the country, but then he contended the circumstances were such thai* no Government could be found to reflect that verdict. The alliance between Mr Sfcout and Sir J. "Yogel had upset all calculations on the part of the country; and he maintained -the Vogel-Stont Government was equally far from reflecting the verdict of the electors. He analysed the constitution of parties, and argued that if this Govern- j ment did not represent the country, no possible formation "could so represent it. He blamed Mr Stout for importing the question of finance, seeing that that question was in a very incomplete state. They should let them bring down their Financial Statement, and allow the whole question to he discussed. He believed that they were opposed to ! having the financial state of the Colony frilly disclosed. The imputation made against railway management waa equally unsatisfactorily put forward. The only .indictment made on that lead was a most frivolous one, which only involved a change of 7s 6d. That was a most extraordinary reason to assign for turning a Ministry out of office. They ought to have had something of more importance than that. He admitted that local government was of importance, and promised it should be- a question which would command' his best attention. In the Speech they had .from the Stout-Vogel -Government the other day, not a single word was said about local government ; indeed, it was most conspicuous by its absence. The argument that no change of policy could be looked for from Major Atkinson was an argument which was not borne out by experience. He instanced cases of the kind which had taken place in New Zealand, . and argued from these that a most complete change of policy might not unreasonably be looked for. He believed that '.the real truth was that the Opposition was- afraid to give them an opportunity for bringing down their policy. The argument that Major Atkinson was bound to .frame hiß policy in accordance with his hustings speech, was equally illogical. His surroundings were now changed, and it was only reasonable to -expect the policy would change in a corres~ ponding degree. Mr Stout himself was a man of pronounced extreme views, and yet le could temper his policy to suit thc.cir- . cumstances. Mr Stout -was simply asking them to take a leap in the dark, admitting, . as he did, that he could not even predict what would follow their expulsion from . office. They were all ready to " stand i . aside if they could bring about a- more .satisfactory solution of the present ; difficulty, but he reminded them that the circumstances were most critical, and lit behoved them to 3ae careful. The real question at issue was whether Sir G. Grey ; was to rule the country or not. Without i "him they could do nothing. It would not lie Mr Stout's victory, ibut a victory to Sir <O- Grey. It would be the .latter, with his , small, compact party, wtowould reap all the while the others would still be left jin the full enjoyment of the winter of their It was a Btrange mixture of Sir J. Yogel ought to be with .the ■Government, and Sir G. (irey ought to be with Mr Stout. Sir George,, however, had -chosen to disseverate himself from his , jDftjjural allies. He voted against Sir J. Togel, and now, when he found that this Government would not serve Ais ..sinister motives, he was about to .vote against them. Had they consented to do as Sir G, Grey wanted, abandon the Property tax in favour of the Land tax, they would have had him on their side. He would have been in «, position to go back to the country and say," Office had no charm for me, but I put in a Government to do my will." As a matter of fact, if they were ousted from office Mr Stout could not form a Government independent of Sir G. Grey. In that way they were to be kept driven about from .day to day at the whim and caprice of Sir G. Grey and his compact but small following. That waa the true state of the case, and it was to be deplored. Por that, and that alone, they were asked to vote against the Government- They had been told .by one section that unless Sir J. Yogel was in the Government it would not be allowed to stand. He acknowledged Sir J. Vogel's undoubted ability, but to say that he was indispensable to a stable Government was out of the question, and it waa only placing him in a fake position. The net result of thia infatuation was to continue Sir G. Grey .complete master of the situation. He hoped members would have independence of a kind to resist this ■unseemly state of tilings, and break down ,this threatened danger. It was admitted •iliat they had a good Parliament, and yet, after three weeks' contention, they could .not decide upon a capable Government. Sir Julius Vogerg Criticism. Sir J. Yogel concurred in the idea that it was rno3t desirable to Bee new blood on the .Government bencheß. He admitted the undoubted ability of the last speaker, but was /sorry to think his career on the 'Government benches for the present was to be cut short. He had told them, quoting the opinion of a gentleman not in the House, that the essentials of a successful politician wero that he should be either an inspired prophet or a hopeless idiot. " Judging from Mr Wakefield's exprcssiou of countenance, he .was at a loss to imagine to which of these categories he claimed to belong. They charged the Government now on -the benches es being the means, by its intrigues, of turning out the late Government. They would not allow them to bring down their policy, and the Opposition now contended tha*, as a reward for intrigues, they had 3}£> claim to a greater courtesy. It was out of the question to contend that this was not an Atkinson Government. Major Atkinson was } too old a politician, and one of too good I standing to argue that his speeches o,i $he J late election were not a forecast of hi* j -policy. He traced, and. criticised the \ ,

"various steps by which the formation of tho Government again came into the hands of Major Atkinson. They were led on in that direction by a plea put forward on the part of Major Atkinson, that a coalition was necessary. When the time came, howevcY, what do they find him doing ? He forms no coalition, but forma a Government out of his own particular element and party. To say that that was aught but an Atkinson Government was to say what could not possibly be borne out by fact. It followed, then, that this was the very Government they were returned to oust at Dunedin and Christchurch. When the late elections were over it received its final warning, and yet it will not die. Its tenacity of life was something extraordinary. The reason of those repeated warnings was a feeling on the part of the Colony that it had outlived its usefulness. No Government could have retired with better grace. Personally, it was held in high respect, and if it had just retired from mortal gaze it would have done so with much grace. The Colony was tired of waiting for a realisation of these promises — for the improvement which the Atkinßon Government had so often promised and never fulfilled. He went on t» criticise Major Atkinson's utterances during the late election, and stated that he was utterly astonished at his statement regarding title to property, j its effect being to discourage capi- | talists from investing in this Colony. j The reference made by the preI vious speaker to Sir George Grey was thoroughly characteristic of the Atkinson Ministry. That, itself, was evidence of the real character ef the Government, and at once stamped it as the Atkinson Government, say what they might to the contrary. Sir George Grey was sufficiently distinguished as an individual to warrant them in believing that he was entitled to whatever following he could command, and as such, his followers ought to have j been spoken of with more courtesy than j had been done. Eeference had been made to the extraordinary nature of the alliance between Mr Stout and himself. As a matter of fact, Mr Wakefield had called J upon him in Dunedin, and af ter a long I conversation they had come to the unanii mous opinion that they could act together ; j indeed, he was now astonished to find that they could not do so. In politics it was fast coming to this, that all power Bhould centre in the hands of the people ; | in fact, all distinction as between Liberal and Conservative will be swept away, but then there will.be the intelligent Eadical, and the reckless Eadical. This will be the j sole distinction. That, however, was not the point upon which at present they were ! most immediately interested. What they had to look to was, the Administration, and he contended that in every department improvements were demanded, and not until these were achieved would the depressed state of the Colony be grappled with. In the Speech of the Governor, they had given no uncertain sound in that respect, and if they had had an opportunity for bringing down their policy, it would have been clearly elaborated. It was objected that the Speech involvedlarge borrowing. That was a mistake. The proposals to spend a million per annum on railways had broken down because it simply contemplated to make short sections, and leave lines incomplete. Had they had the opportunity they would have brought down complete statements of revenue and expenditure, and shown how they were going by completing their lines, to make them payable and reproductive. Their taxation proposals would also have been redeemed had they had an opportunity for carrying on the Government. In the present Government they had a Government that was pronounced to be thoroughly distasteful to the country. It was out of the question to suppose that Major Atkinson's opinions would be moulded by Mr Wakefield, and as such, it was absurd to think that this would be other than an Atkinson Government. A similar Btate of depression existed in Victoria a few years ago, but, with a change of Government and a coalition the difficulty -was obviated, and the discontent has disappeared. Major Atkinson's Artillery. Major Atkinson said that the last speaker's argument about property and its titles was most completely answered by the statements made from time to time by his colleague Mr Stout. Thatwouldbethe most complete answer that could be given. He admitted that he had said that it was hiß duty to see if a better title than that of freehold could not be got. It was one of the great social questions which would aye to be met. He had said nothing revolutionary on the .point. He had resisted a Land tax on the ground that it would have been unfair. He had always advocated that no property should be taken away until fair compensation had been given for it. He denied, in these circumstances, that he had said anything to disturb the minds of capitalists as respects the security of property in the Colony. They had been told •that enterprise was at an end, and speculation was dead. Only one branch of enterprise had ceased, that was land speculation in large blocks. That was the only industry, if it could be called an industry, that had ended. The fact was that the Colony was full of capital, and the only drawback was they had no more security to pledge. As regards the Continuous Ministry, if it meanfc-thathe had held office for a length of time, :he could only say his average period had not yet reached that of statesmen in England. The fact was he felt rather proud of having had the confidence of Parliament so lot\g. Jt was admitted he had the respect of the House and country, which of itself was evidence he had done Ms work well. He had been told that as a Government the only resting place they could find was the floor of this House. Where, he asked, was the place for them to find rest but on the floor of the House, amidst the representatives of the people ? That was his proud distinction. That was the whole charge against the Government. He admitted the elections went against the Government, but that question was not raised as regards principles. What was Canterbury ranged against the Government for but the railway tariff? The fact that Government had had . the candour to determine what was to be done with the Native lands, was another reason why it was tc be turned out ; but it was to be replaced by a strong Government. Well, they got another Government, but it could not stand. A majority of 19 declared the country did not want them. Well, if it did not want them, what did it want ? Mr Stout, it was plain, could not come back. It was clear to him that nothing but a coalition would do. He said that frankly. He had gone a great deal further than his party thought it was right for him to go in trying to bring about a coalition, but he did not succeed. Up to the last moment he had hoped to succeed, and that should be known to the country. • What, then, did this motion mean? Why, it only meant revenge for the vote against the previous Government. Sir Julius Yogel objected to proceedings outside the House being referred to. Major Atkinson said he had avoided saying anything that was not in the public prints of the Colony. They were willing to come to any possible coalition, but it fell through in consequence of the other side. It was but right the country should know this fact. The whole of the works set out in the schedule of the Three Million Loan had been provided for. That was a complete answer to the accusation that tho loan expenditure of one million per annum had broken down. The money had been all spent in accordance with the schedules of tho Act and the votes of the House. The three years expire next March, which accounted for so littlo of the loan remaining to be spent. The idea of pursuing works with a view to their completion and the getting of speedy returns, was exactly what the late Government had done. It was the Yogel Government that began works all over the CoJony, and they had to carry on the y.'imc principle. What they had to do was to carry out the work as he had begun it. He asked them where he had failed in the matter, seeing that the work had been carried out on the lines that he had ,laid down ? Why was it that they had

not been told why this great saving in the taxation of the country could be made ? Because he had not had the opportunity, he was told. What did that mean ? Did it mean that he could save the country, but refused to do so unless he got on to these benches P Was that his duty to the country ? When the Stout- Vogel Ministry were on those benches, what they asked for was time to develop their policy. And yet they were told this was not a retaliation, but it was a duty they performed more in sorrow than in anger. All they asked was to place themselves in the same position as the late Government placed itself when it delivered the Governor's speech. Where was the fairness of the motion if the vote went against them ? His successor would have no enviable task before him. If he was to be ousted from office on the pleas put forward, he would bow to the decision, but still that would not divest his mind of -the feeling that but scant justice had been meted out to him. What he asked was to have an opportunity of stating his policy. He relied upon the vote to-night to show that the other side had committed a grievous blunder. Mr Guinness* Amendment. Mr Guinness moved as an amendment — " That the debate be adjourned till Tuesday next." He blamed the Opposition for undue haste in its anxiety to unseat the Government. It was unfair to unseat the Government before it had enunciated its policy or, in fact, before the Government had been actually completed. He blaimed the Opposition for not assisting in bringing about a Coalition Government. He admitted there were objectionable men in the Cabinet, but that, he contended, was no reason why they should not have an opportunity of stating their policy. Mr W. P. Buckland seconded the amendment. He reflected upon the conduct of the leaders, and contended that it was their duty to have the policy of the Government before they sad more. Mr Shrimbki reprobated the proposal for adjournment. The Government was in a minority, and all that was desired was time to convert that minority into a majority. Government ought to have followed the example of their predecessors and thrown up the sponge at once, knowing, as they did, that they were in a minority. Mr Menteith supported the amendment, and gave his reasons for voting against the motion. Mr Garrick opposed the amendment. He alluded to the inconsistency of the mover of the amendment, in complaining of the delay which had already taken place, and at the same time moving for further delay. The Government themselves had Bhown good reason why the motion should «ot be adjourned. He acquiesced in the opinion that the sooner they got rid of the Atkinson Government the better. It had been Btated far and wide that the maladministration of that Government had a great deal to do with the general depression. It was fully understood that the finances of the Colony were in a very bad state. These reports had been in some way confirmed since they met in Parliament. Mr Wakefield said that they would make honest efforts to improve the state of matters. That was a tacit admission that something was seriously wrong. What was wanted was not modification on the part of the Premier, but a coalition Government, and that coalition should be brought about by the ordinary mode, and this he contended was the ordinary mode. No good could be got from delay. It would only lead to lobbying, and that they should discountenance. Mr I. Hakuene spoke in favour of the . adjournment, but intimated that he would oppose Government. Mr Wi Pere blamed Government for having put into force stringent laws against the Natives. Mr Bevan would vote against the Government. It was, to his mind, the Continuous Government : at all events, its head was that of the Continuous Government. He had examined into the financial position of affairs, and he could come to no other conclusion than that there was a serious deficiency. A great deal of discontent existed throughout the Colony at the action of those members who put this Ministry on these benches. The burning of effigies, and dipping them in sheepwash, was all significant in that direction. WELLINGTON, August 30. Mr O'Connor favoured the adjournment, as it would enable him and others to form better ideas of the capabilities of the Ministry. MrMACARTHUR objected to the Government being turned out. A division on the amendment was then taken, and was lost by 43 to 37 votes. Mr Pyke would like to see time given to the Government to develop their policy. Mr Fergus spoke in favour of the present Government. Mr Hursthouse considered the Government, as at present constituted, was a moderate one, with originality. Every attempt had been made to form a coalition, ibut the other side of the House did not want it. Mr Stout replied briefly. A division was taken at 3 o'clock this morning, and the Government were defeated by 43 to 35 votes.