ST ANDREWS CHURCH.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 4564, 9 December 1882, Page 4

ST ANDREWS CHURCH.

MEETING OF THE CONGBEGATION. Last night a public meeting of the Bb Andrew's congregation was held in the ohuroh, convened by the Bov Charles Fraser, with the consent of the Kirk seasion, for the purpose of eleoting trustees and other business. There was an attendance of about a hundred, and the Bey Charles Fraser prodded. Ai soon aa the Chairman appeared, Mr M'Haffie rose, and said that he had received » record from the Clerk of the Presbytery of Ohristehuroh, intimating that the Bev Charles Fraaer had been suspended by the Presbytery from the ministry, and consequently Mr Eraser was not warranted in presiding at that or any meeting of the congregation. The Bev Oharlea Fraser said the record had been road at the ohuroh door on Sunday last j those present were perfectly aware of it, and those who were aware of it must act upon it. He then opened tho meeting with prayer. At the conclusion of the prayer he addressed thoso present to the following effeot:— Thu first thing he wished to do was to read to tho meeting the intimation culling them together in order that they might be made aware that what had been done was in strict accordance with due form. (The ■peaker read the notice convening the meeting.) SiDce tbeu the Kirk session had held a meeting, and hud found that it would be necessary to have the roll of communicants made up to the last day of communion, and a roll of adherents formed beforebrustees could be elected. They did not propose, therefore, that election should take place that night, as it ■would be uadeairable to do so. On the other hand, he was very anxious to take that opportunity of making a statement to the meeting on his own behalf. They were aware that certain charges had been made against him. From the first he had denied the truth of all of them, and he thought they would acknowledge that every action of his had been in that direction. When told that some recent acts were regarded with suspicion by some of bis fellow ministers, he at once had volunteered an explanation, and, bb far as he could learn, that explanation was considered satisfactory. But* he had boor found that the first move had been mado with the object of leading back to certain matters whioh ocourred several years ago. In regard to these, it was enough for him to Bay that he had then come forward prepared to meet those charges, aa he was prepared now. It would bo for tho congregation to decide whether they wished to go buck behind the meeting, when the Presbytery, the congregation, and himself met, and when the decision come to was entirely ita his favour; and he had Borne doubts whether it was possible for his -opponents to even frame a charge now. But lie felt very strongly upon the whole mattor, as they might imagine, especially because he believed that for certain things to be fluid about a minister was almost as bad as for the same to be proved against any other man. It wbb sot desirable that Buoh things should be supposed to bo connected with the name of a minister. In all the aotion he had taken in this mattor, he had done for the best in accordance with his own knowledge, of Church law, and with the best legal advice ho could take. Ho had made -what might ba considered by gome the bold atep, of offering, if the Presbytery would refer the case to the General Assemblies, to abide by tho decision, whatever it might be, and he was perfectly prepared to stand or fall by what they Bhould say. That offer had been refu-ed, nnd he had boan told that the enquiry would be carried on bore. He had nob expectad the Freßbvtory would have taken tho vnry Biiddon stop thoy had taken in the suspension, to whioh some referenco had been made that evening. He had good reaßon for nob putting himself in the hands of the Presbytery. They had been determined from the first, to set him aside, and to lay their hands on the property, so he had deolined thoir jurisdiction, and withdrawn from their society. •He Bimply held the position he had held during his first years in the Colony, when there was no Presbytery in existence, but the step taken by the Presbytery in pretending to suspend him, was far more hasty than any he had evor heard of. In former timoß, the praotice of the Established Ohurch was, that the parish minister could not be interfered with in his work till something was proved against him. In the Free Ohuroh, the rule waß simply that a libel, or indiotment, must be formed, discussed, approved, and ordored to be served upon a minister before he could be suspended. So with all other Churches, bo far as he knew. But nothing of that sort had been done in this cue. Here they pretended to suspend him actually before an indictment had been framed. No Ohuroh court in the world would Burely countenance such a proceeding, but they had really no power whatever over him, save to deolare whether he and they could work any longer together. That wbb all their jurisdiction. He was one of those who held his ordination independent of the Presbytery. He thought it but right that the congregation should be informed on these matters, but he was certainly surprised to find that thingß which had taken place in a Becret 'meeting of the Presbytery had become known, while they had not been submitted to the congregation. He considered that they had a right to know these things, and that it would be well for steps to be taken to enable them to obtain that knowledge. He wished his congregation to look into these matters, as he wished to stand well with them, and to olear himself before them. It was almost as much their holiness as it was his. He would fain hope that the result of all those troubles, serious though they were, would be for the good of the congregation, and would promote tho great objeota for which they came together. Kspeoially he boped for a larger and more earnest nttondance at ohurch, and the return of some of the friends who had left them. He had m3do tho offer to go before the Supremo Court of the Church, and now desired that the evidence taken should be submitted to a Committee of the congregation. He would now simply ask Mr Pirie, one of the elders, to move the firafc resolution. Mr Paxton suggested that it was desirable that a Booretary for the meeting should ba appointed. The Bov 0. Fraser would be very glad if Mr Paxton would aob as secretary. Mr Paxton deolined, but suggested that Mr Smart, Secretary of the Financial Committse, Bhould aot. Mr Bmart agreed to do *<> >nd took a sdat at the Chairman's table. Mr D. Craig would liU. :o know if the Presbytery had evor discutrwi the conduot of a minister after he had beou before a Committee of tho Assembly. The Bev O. Fraaer said ho had been before no Committee of the Assembly. Mr D. Craig had listened to Mr Eraser's statement, and must say he considered it somewhat mixed. Ho thought he could say that he had never shown any animus againßt Mr Fraser, but tho publio prints had boen so open in their oharges againßt that gentleman, that those oharges were calculated to do great damage to the congregation. He would like to know whether a Committee of the Presbytery had not, at Mr Fmser's invitation, been enquiring into his cond.-ct for tho past month or two. • The Bov C. Fraser replied that no doubt a Committee had boon enquiring into such charges, but he had understood that tho examination was to bo confined to recent matters, in accordance with his roquost. Xhey, however, wished to travel back into the past. He had protested against one of the ministers there, because that minister had been guilty of #hab he charged him with, namoly, malicious and dishonourable conduot. That was one protest he had made. Another protest was the going back upon things whioh, he considered, had been fully debated before, or an opportunity for debating which had boon previously given. Tho suspicion had then dawned upon him that thoy wished to rush in upon him, and to lay their hands upon tho property and everything else belonging to the congregation. He had aaid that ho would submit to a Committee of tho General Assembly, but whon they took notion, which was contrary to any ecclesiastical law, ho had refused to submit. Thoy would at once have stopped in, and without "By your leave " or "with your leave " to the congregation, would have soizod thoir proporty. Iho congregation had been existing thore boforo the Prosbytory, and ho had soon two or thrco Bets of tho Presbytery pasa away, and he might yet livo to Bee another pass away. But ho had resolved to stand or full with tho congregation. Had Mr Craig any resolution to movq ? Mr Craig replied in the tiOßiUivo. Mr Pirio moved— (1.) "liml;» Committeo consisting of the Kirk Session, along with two of tho ohurch members selected by tho congro*

gation and two of the ohuroh members selected by the Rev Oharlea Fraaer, apply to the Presbytery for s certified copy of the evidence taken for and against Mr Fraser, examine into the same, and report thereon to the congregation at an early date." Mr G. Ferguson seconded the resolution. Mr Paxton said that if the Presbytery had permitted Mr Frager to appeal to the Assembly, that body would remit it back to the Presbytery, desiring them to do their duty, and this would involve the suspension of tbe whole question till 12 months from noxt March. With regard to the inability of an enquiry into scandals of more thiin five years' standing, the Victorian rules, and those of the Free Church contained the proviso — " unless Borne new ecandal have subsequently arisen." The speaker was pro* oeeding to quote further to show the inutility of applying to the Presbytery for the evidence, when he was interrupted by Mr Fraser, who contended that he was out of order. Mr Paxton understood, then, Mr Fraser to say that he was outside the jurisdiction of tbe Church of New Zealand. The Rev 0. Fraser replied in the affirmative, and put the resolution. Mr M'Haffie said that the meeting would act most foolishly in asking a superior Court to send reports to that— a lower one. The Proabytery could only be approached by petition, and not by a resolution from that or any other congregation. The Bev 0. Fraser interrupted Mr M'Haffie, who warmly protested against the action of the Chairman. The Kev C. Fraser would be compelled to take some stepß if Mr M'Haffie did not keep order. He had made arrangements for preserving order. The resolution was a?ain put, when Mr Paxton claimed the ear of the meeting. The Bev 0. .Eraser called Mr Paxton to ordor. Mr D. Craig wished to speak. Mr Paxton again claimed the ear of the meeting. (He had not sat down in the meantime.) The Bev 0. Fraser was not sure that he ought not, in the interest of order, to press the matter to the vote at once. Mr D. Craig protested against the discusBion being burked. Dr Turnbull rose to a point of order. The whole question was whether Mr Fraser was guilty or not. If he was guilty, let the congregation say so, and if ho was not guilty, let them stand to him like men. (Applause.) After some further irregular discussions, the resolution was put to a show of hands, and carried by a very considerable majority. Mr Paxton demanded a division, and that the roll should be called in accordance with the Church rules. The Bev 0. Fraser ruled that they were not bound to call the roll at a general meeting. Mr Paxton deßired his protest to be taken note of by the Secretary. Mrß. Boece moved— (2.) " That Meßsr.B William Boag and John Deans be the Committee* men for the congregation." Mr Martin seconded the resolution, which was declared carriod unanimously. Mr William Boag moved— (3.) "That this congregation considers it as unnecessary and wholly uncalled for to go behind the resolutions of the congregational meeting held under the presidency of the Presbytery tome three and a-half years ago, or to go further back than five yoars ago, and instructs the Committee to confine itself to charges mado Bince that date." Mr Loslie seconded the resolution. Mr D. Craig contended that it was inconsistent with the first resolution to pass this one, because in the first, the whole of the evidence was caked for, and that evidence, he understood, from what hud taken place that night, went back eomo 14 or 15 yearß, while now the resolution said it waß unnecessary to to behind live years, or rather three yoavs, for that was the time of the congregational meeting alluded to. Let the congregation consider the whole of the evidence. He had known Mr Frasor for a number of yearß, and knew nothing against him, and no ono could be more disgusted than he was at the charges made ogainst that gentleman. He would like to sea him stick to his colours, and believed if he went about the matter con* etitutionally, he would be acquitted. Instead of calling together a lot of people whose faoes were never seen in the church, who were dragged into the place to upset a constitution which Mr Fraser had solemnly promised to uphold, let him be suspended, stand upon his trial, and come off with flying colours. Then they would all bo prepared to support him. (Applause.) He moved an amendment aa follows:— "That, with a view to consistency with the first resolution, the Committee consider the whole of the evidence, instead of a portion of it only." Mr Eogloeome seconded the amendment, and spoko at some length in support of Mr Craig'B viows. Mr Rceco asked if thero was not some eoandal referred to at the meeting three years ago. Mr M'Haffie : Not at all. Mr Beece protested against being interrupted, and recommended Mr M'Haffie to take a cold bath outside. Several of those present spoke to the amendment at some length. In the course of the discussion, Mr Paxton read MrFraaer'e description of himself in the Comotery Trust Deed recently executed, in which ho described himself as a minister of the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand ; and further, in the same deed, the Free Ohurch of Scotland was described as being known in New Zealand as the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand. How could he, then, olaicn to be a Free Churohman, and deny that he was a member of the New Zealand Presbyterian Church ? The Bev 0. Frasor put the motion first, and left the chair to count the votes, with the result that 43 persona voted for the resolution. The amendment was then put, and 13 hands were held up in favour of it. Dr Turnbull proposed—" That the Trustee or Trust e<)B of the Church and Manse property bo requested to have the mance ground laid out in seotions for leasing purposes, reserving at least half-an-acre round the manse, and that the Finance Committee be requested to assist in carrying out this object." In support of tho resolution, ho referred to the position of St Andrew's, whioh preoluded any large congregation residing in its neighbourhood. Mr Hrie seconded the resolution, but after some dieou.sion it was withdrawn. Mr D. Craig read a telegram from Mr B. Wilkin, to the following effeot :— " As an adherent of St Andrew's, decidedly object to severing tho connection with the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand ; and, if necessary, will sign any protOßt against it. Mr Fraser fully understands my opinion on this matter." The telegram was inserted in the minutes. Mr M'Haffie read a formal protest as follows — " That whereas this meeting has been presided over by * suspended minister, and whereas there is no lawful communion roll of the congregation, I protest against all the action taken by this meeting." The Bev 0. Fraser would not receive the protest, as Mr M'Haffie had taken part in the proceedings. Mr Puiton wished to move, before the meeting separated — " That this congregation call upon the Bov Charles Fraser to submit himself to tho jurisdiction of the Presbytery of Ohristchuroh, and defend the libel about to be served upon him if he can do so." Tho Bev 0. Frasor declined to accept the resolution, which, he said, was one not competent to be brought forward at that meeting. Mr Paxton desired to have the resolution noted on the minutes, but Mr Frasor stopped any further business by immediately pro* nouncing tho Benediction.