PARLIAMENT.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 4162, 23 August 1881, Page 4

PARLIAMENT.

[Pbb Pbebb Assooiaxion.J

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Monday, Attgust 22,

EVENING SITTING. Tha House met at 7.30 p.m. EXPLANATION.

The Hon E. Hiohabdson corrected a statement which had been publiahed, to the effect that a Boyal Commission had beon appointed to enquire into the circumstance* attending the late railway accident at Kaitoke. The fdcfc was that he had been simply asked, along with the two members for Waimrapa, to eni quire into tho cause of the accident, without any such Commission having been constituted. MB PTKB'S MOTION. Oa Mr Pikb being called on to movo — " That ib is not within the power of Mr Speaker to omit or mutilate a notice of motion presented by any member of this House, unless the same shall be of an improper or offensive character," he said that as he had no wish to delay the business ho would withdraw the motion. At the same time, he desired to state that in tabling the motions which had bean altered he was perfectly in earnest. The Spbakee said he was most averse to interfere with the latitude to be given to members in relation to notices of motion, but the House looked to him to permit of nothing unseemly appearing on the order paper. Referring to the motions complained of, he stated that he had spoken to Mr Fyke on the subject, and before taking upon himself to alter the same he had offered them back again to the hon member, so that he might remodel them if he saw fit. His reason for interrupting Mr Pyke on Friday was that he was satisfied no breach of privilege had occurred, and he was unwilling to waste the time of the House.

'Ike motion was withdrawn. TIMABTT HABBOUB BOABD.

Oa the motion of the Hon J. Hall, the Timaru Harbour Soard Act, 1876, Amendment Bill, was introduced and read a first time.

OA3IINO AND LOTTBBIE3 BILL,

A message from the Legislative Council was read on the subject of amendments in tho Gaming and Lotteries Bill.

The Hon T. Dies explained that tho Council consented to the excision of clause 15, but also insisted on the new clause 9 inserted in the Souse being struck out. This win tho clause intended to affect bookmakers, bub tho Council feared it admitted of wider application. He thought the Council's concasaions nnd terms should be accepted, and moved that the Council's amendments be agreed to. Mr Bnows and Sir W. 1 Fox objected to clause 9 being dropped.

Messrs Botvex, Whitakeb and Sexmoub eupoorted Mr Dick's motion, whioii was carried on the voices.

BAILTVAY CONSTBTTCTION AND LAND BILL.

The Hon J. Hali, moved the second reading of the Bailway Construction and Land Bill. He said that a total of 1287 miles of railway had bfcen completed in tho Colony. What remained to be done was to complete a gap of 2L5 miles in the North, and 104 in the tiouth, to complete main through lines. The railways already made paid 3£ per cent, which was a strong inducement to get theae gaps filled up. They had also been a means of opening out many important branches of industrial pursuits. Agricultural development had been promoted to an extent that would not otherwise havo been tho case. The time had now arrived when the area of available agricultural land would havo to bo extended, and that could only be done in advantageous terms by extending the means of communication. There were three ways in which that could be done. The first was by doing as they had hitherto done : Government to borrow the money and make tho lines. Ho did not moan to say that they were nob to borrow more money, but that csuvse would not meet all the requirements of the caso at present. Another method was by guaranteeing interest to Companies undertaking tho work. That was objectionable, as it tended to extravagance both in making and management. For that reason they did not think this system desirable. Then, again, an obstacle in the way of both these methods was the fact that they were debarred from going to the money market for a, given time. The third mode was tho one proposed in the Bill. It had been largely resorted to in America, and some largo lines had been completed, and wore still being undertaken on this principle. In Canada recently 25 million acres of land had been devoted to this purpose. In New Zealand land wbb more plentiful than money, and when they gave land they knew exactly the exlont of their liability. By giving land they became no poorer, and if tho work was a success they were a great deal richer. By making the lend that would still remain accessible, it became more valuable than tho whole area was before. Then it brought foreign capital into the Colony, and would give commercial men at Home a more direct interest in its welfare. By that means an additional colonising agency would be established at Home, and that was, to his mind, v very great desideratum. In America that was found to be tho case. Tho Companies at Home circulated their prospeotus, and resorted to other means for making the Colony known. That it would not be dignified for Government to do. Then, this system would check the construction of mere political railways. Thoso Companies would not invest their money for political purposes, but would do so on a j purely commercial basis Tho pr<>3eni; time I was a most favourable one. as there was a forge amount of capital seeking investment. These were tho motives which weighed with Government in brinting down tho proposals I in the Bill. Beferring to the provisions of tho measure, ho pointed out that it was proposed to leave the final adoption of tho contract to the Hou«o. Contracts of this kind Government deemed too important to admit of their final disposal being left, wholly in thn hands of the Ministry of the day. Tho borrowing powers and other provisions from existing Acts were inserted in tho Bill itself in order that Companies might be enabled to have the whole scheme before them, and all their powors and privileges embodied in the one measure. Tho lands to be dealt with were to be as much a3 possible situated along the line of railway, tho limits being within 15 miles of each, side of the line. In America tho limit was 20 miles. Power was also asked for to deal with lines already partly made. It was asked to hand over the works so accomplished to any Company willing to undertake and carry out their completion. There was no provision in the Bill ♦*Nt the land should bs settled, but it would be tho duly of Government to see that a stipulation of that kind waa marie in any contrnct entered into. ITo commented at length on clau3o GO, poi< fini» out thui. SO ptv cent. of the cost of tho line in land meant at tho valuation made before the lino was constructed. When constructed, the l».nrt would bo greatly cnban-.'-l in value, ami Govimmmont thought r:icl> iT.liJiiurfd v.iliic wi-uld b» quite a sufficient indi;c< '"i':if. '<■)• ur-ilprtukinc ! the work. He recited the other provisions, s-t nt - ing that, in Committee, Government woul-i bo prepared to accept any reasonable- amendment. It had been suggested to him einco tho Bill had been framed that it would bo wiso to nllovc land-owners along any proposed line to rato themselves for tho payment of interest. Thero could he thought, bo no objection to that proposal , and in Committee » suggestion of the kind would secure consideration.

Sir G. Gbby took it that if the Bill fus given effect to, the wholo future of the Colony was to be changed. It meant that thoy were

to establish a community of tenants undo;.-* foreign landlords. The greatness of a nation was tho pledging of its national credit, and tho creating of a national debt for useful public works. As they grew in strength and population their debts should increase in proportion. He quotod from a speech addressed by himself to the Cnpe of Good Hope Legislature in 1856, when introducing a scheme of public works. The mistake they were making was nob allowing local bodies to borrow to the full extent of their ability for publi;; works. He contended ttiat it WBS their duty to raise, by borrowing, such money as was necessary to complete their public works, nnd a great portion of this could be raided in tho Colony. .According to (he Premier's own showing, they had only about a fourth of the work to do in order to complete their through trunk lines. Tho Premier had also stated three meanß within their reach for completing that work, but there were others. One error ran through the whole of the Premier's remarks. On the first head ho assumed that the money must be borrowed outside the Colony. He contended that a large proportion of the money could be raised within tho Colony. The Premier objected to the guarantee system on the score of oncouraging extravagance, but he was satisfied if the guarantee was moderato it would be an inducement towards economy. There was still a fourth method, the Premier had not touched on at all. It had been already proposed by himself, when in office ; it was that the land should be sold, and the cost of construction paid out of that. The land was not to be sold until the lines wore finished, or partly finished. Had that plan, proposed by hi 3 Government, beon carried out, much of the distress and stagnation which had provailed would have been prevented, and resulted in settling a largo population on the land who would have found employment on these works. In the meantime he objected to the proposals made because no analogy existed between this place and the United States. There they hud large tracts of country which did not exist here. All great writers on this subject objected to this mode of constructing public works, and said ib was the greatest cuhc which had befallen America, and although Canada had lately gone into the method, that was no reason why they should fall into a similar course. The Premier had told them that in disposing of the land in this way they made themselves no poorer. He said that in giving the land in that way they would make their population beggars. These Companies would sell the land at enormous profits, at a price people could not afford to pay, as they would be held by absentee proprietors who cared little for the Colony, providing they got a large revenue from here to spend at Home. He also denied the Btatemont of the Premier that if the system proposed was a success the Colony would be enriched. They would no doubt establish a colonising agency at Home, bufi what would its object be ? They would be either to sell the lands at an enormous price in England, or else they would send out immigrants as tenant-farmers, paying rents to landlords who enjoyed themselveß and their rents at Home. They would simply interest themselves to the extent of interfering with their legislation and getting tho Imperial authorities to interfere with their internal affairs, if they conceived these were injuring their interests in the Colony. Then, again, he Baid that every one of these railways would be political railways. For all he knew, there might ba many persons in this House even now, who wera to get valuable appointments from Companies about to take up these railways, and outside Parliament thers might be many such influences at work, especially in regard to the elections. The proposed system would, he believed, bo initiating the grossest system of corruption that had over beon attempted in Jtfow Zealand. If abundance of capital was seeking investment, why not go into the market, themselves, and complete these works ? They were only restricted from borrowing till the end of next year : meantime they could go on at a very trifling cost and complete the surveys. Ho had thought the question out clearly, ard these were the conclusions at whioh he had arrived.

The Eon E. Sichabdsoh said the alternative scheme mentioned by the previous speaker failed because the money could net be got to go on with. At the Thames Sir Q-. Grey had Cold his constituents that a proposal of this kind would be made, and he blamed him, if he was not satisfied with it, for not having brought up his alternative proposal, and with it joined iß3uo on the proposal of Government. That would have been a wiser course than the one lip now proposed following. In estimating the percentage paid by the railways he reminded them that, in many instances they had, co to sprak, preceded settlement, and in others they had good roads to compete with. Such being the case, they could not only look upon the return as being good, but also as giving good promise of what would yet be the case. He could see no reason why they should not put these Companies 00 the came footing for constructing these works as the Government was on. Having once concluded an agreement on a prudent basis, such a one as would be passed by that House, he could not eeo why any furthor security should be required. He also pointed out that the lands, as provided for in Section 77, should be sen aside when the survey was made, otherwise speculators were liable to get the lands for their own purposes. He hoped the rating clause alluded to by the Promier would bo introduced, and he counselled them, while protecting the public interest carefully, also to oe careful to make the conditions imposed on the Companies as light as possible ; otherwise ho felt it was just possible there would be a great deal of trouble iv getting Companies to take up these proposals. Mr Bastixgs urged the necessity of completing the main trunk lines, even if some of tho railways already made were to be sold to raise the money required. He believed a syndicate could be formed to buy them. As for the present Bill he was certain there would never bo a mile of railway made under it. The Bill was a blunder, and nover could be made to work. Ho pointed out that the land was not to ba the property of tLe Company until after the work wa9 completed. That meant that the Company would have no security to offer in raising money to undertake the work. Then, again, the delay required in bringing the matter before Parliament would leave things so uncertain that no Company could possibly get money. The technical difficulties of tho District Railways Act, which had been the great drawback to that, were re- produced hero in their very worst form. The Bill could not possibly be made into a practicable measure ; it ought to havo been framed by a Committee of men who had had experience in the defects of tho District Railways Act, not by theorists and lawyers. He suggested that it should be referred to a Committee of the class of men he indicated. I

The Hon W. Gisbobne would support tho Bill, expressing his strong bolief in its principle. He considered that the principle, if carried out, would not only secure for them j thoir railways, but it would be the moans of greatly enhancing the valuo of the public . estate. He quoted from United States Aots on the subject to show that it was absolutely necessary to provide for the settlement of the land, and not allow it to be hold by the Company for mere speculative purposes. Criticising tho various schemes for construction mentioned by the previous speakers, he said the one beforo them was tho only one which had the merit of not requiring them to borrow money in order to provide for current expenditure in one way or another. Tho great question they had to keep in view was whether these linrs were to be completed now, or to be indefinitely postponed. If they got them completed by Companies, ft great step would be gained in the right direction. Mr Macanbbew wondered at the hallucination which seemed to exist that this Bill whb not ono to borrow money. If the Colony did not propose to borrow tho Companies would, and the practical effect would be the photo. The Bill was nn excellent specimen of the way how not to do it. Ho wns certain it; would be n dead lotter. He would never be a party to borrowing another penny outside the Colony for public works. They could not b^'ir the drain of intorest. This now amounted to £100 a day. To complete \ho present rnilwuyp would cost £6.000,000, ivul it. vrm proposed to e\\c away £2,000,000 of land which was really equal to money. That wa3 paying too dear for their whistle. Tho country wanted railways, and they offered it that Bill— a Bill that would never iijiilruct railways. It was giving a stone wsioro bread was required. If tho policy of 1878 had been carried out - the policy alluded to by Sir G. Grey — ho believed they would row- hare admitted it to be tho correct policy.

MrLKYiNsaid the life of the Colony do« peaded upon tho completion of the9O works ; consequently they must either go into the money market and raise fresh loans, or else

resort to some such scheme as this. He admitted the Bill had defects, but he believed it could be turned out of Committee a good workable measure. Ho thought clauses 13 and 14 were too stringont, and then the House might leave Government to complete the agreement under wise and prudenc restrictions, without the delay incidental to the proposed reference of the contracts for approval by the House. Ho also objected to clause 85, as to the valuation of the land by the Burveyor-General. The Company he thought ought to have some say in that question. The 30 per cent cost might, under corluin circumstances, be increased, and clause 90 nhould have its first sub-section struck out. The fact of £50,000 having been subscribed for one of the works proposed showed how well the Bill would operate in raising money within the Colony itself for public works. With certain modifications, he was convinced the Bill would successfully accomplish the objects aimed at. Mr Oliveb supported the Bill, and affirmed the principle of settling the waste lands by mcanß of Companies at Howe, having direct personal interest in the welfare and progress of the Colony. Ho acquiescod in the Premier's views regarding the moat approved method for constructing such works, arguing that Ctio case of India proved that the guarantee system was a complete failure, despite the objections by Mr Macandrew to the contrary. He reminded them that when that gentleman was Minister for Public Works he proposed that these w^rks should be carried on at the rate of £2,000,000 per annum. To carry out such a proposal the Colony must have gone into the money market. He also reminded them of the Tapanui railway job promoted by Mr Macandrew, which was carried out on tho principle of land being appropriated to the coat. Therefore, why not allow the Welling-ton-West Coast line, Canterbury iuterior and Otago central to be gone on with under this Bill, and allow its general applications to stand over if they were considered improper ? He argued that the reservation of minerals was un improper one, aud contended that the difficulty could bo got over by a reservation that minerals subsequently discovered should pay a royalty. Altogether he thought the Bill could be made a good workablo measure.

Mr Moss thought tho Bill was of no use so far as the North Island was coucerned. Under the circumstances, the prospects of progress would be confined to the South Island. They had plenty of Maori land in the North, but he knew of very little Crown land. He should like to see a statement of the Crown lands so as to ascertain where the railways were likely to be made. He also objected to the Bill, inasmuch as a large Company would stand a very fair chance of becoming much stronger than the Government, and, in that case, instead of Government keeping the Company in check the Company would be able to keep the Government in check. He did not think any large sum of money could be got in the Colony, and he asked them to consider what that meant. It meant an enormous drain upon the country to meet the annual charge on loans and additional loan. There were large districts where the pablic works scheme did not apply, and ho was afraid that Bill would only aggravate the evil. He desired to see some special provision made in the interests of these districts. Ho would, for these reasons, oppose the motion for tho second reading, but he did so reluctantly, as he looked on the Bill as one of importance for some places. Mr Collins supported the Bill. He believed it was the only chance there was of railways being provided for some parts of the Colony, othorwise neglected ; at all events, it would prevent one part of tho Colony being charged for railways made in another. Mr Db Lautottb reminded thorn that the three railways specially alluded to were line 3 a Royal Commission had roported should not be mado at all. The inducement a Company would have would be tho grant made out of the public estate. The argument that one district would not be made to pay for railways in another was utterly fallacious. The land was to be appropriated for the purpose of construction, and then the lines were to be undertaken by Companies, and of course if they did not pay they would revert back to the State. In that case the system of one district paying for railways in another would be aggravated in its worst possible form. He believed that the true policy would be to refrain from further borrowing until the works already constructed showed a margin sufficients justify resumption of these works. Mr Reid supported the motion, but regretted tho Bill had come at such a late period of the session. He did not think there was sufficient time to consider it fully, and he would not be sorry to sco it held over till noxt session.

Mr Lbvestam would vote against the second reading. Under the Public Works policy, as originally propounded, a mnin trunk line was to be made through the North and South Islands. If that was done he would support the Bill, but until it was done he could not do so.

Mr — — would vote for tho second reading. Without some such, measure he saw no prospect of the railway works being completed. He did not take it that this Bill was intended to apply to main trunk lines, but such lines as the Ofcago Oontral, Canterbury interior and Wellington- West Coast, but unless the land was at once Grown granted Lo the Company he believed that there would bo very little prospect of any Company raising the money. The argument that the Bill would tend to create a system of tenant, farmers under landlords was to his mind of no real importance, and he ecouted the idea of sufficient money for public works being raised in the Colony. Mr Sbddon objected to the Bill, arguing that the proposal was altogether at variance with the polioy enunciated by Government last session. Tho proposal was ouo which would suit some districts, but others, for instance the West Coast, it would not suit at all. Ho pointed out that while the ostensible object of the Bill was that the lines to be formed should act as feeder linos, the Wellington West coast line would direct the traffic at present going by the Government lines on to the projected Company's lines. He alao pointod out that the reference to Parliament would entail a delay of twelve months bofore anything practical could be done, and by that time tho Colony would be free to go into the money market on its own acoount. In that case it would be better for the Colony to carry out the original policy and complete at all events the main trunk lines. This was a departure from tho Public Works policy, and as auch it was a fitting subject upon which to go to the country. Mr J. T. Fishbb contended that the question had been already before the country, and that they were in a position to dacide upon it. Had a policy of this kind been inagurated ten years ago it would have been much better for the Colony. Ho would support the motion. Mr Shephaud objected to the principle of the Bill as antagonistic to the spirit of the Public Works policy. The Bill itself was an extravagant measure, proposing, as it did, a bonus to induce Companies to undertake the works which it wa9 the duty of tho State to do. He hoped and beMeved tho Bill would i not pass. Mr GIBB3 aleo opposed the Bill.

Mr Weston spoke in favour of the proposal mado by Mr Bastings, that tho Bill should be referred to a Committee of practical mm to put it into shape. Ho strongly urged the necessity lor passing tho Bill.

Tho Hon J. Hall roplied. Ho could nob aeree with all tho objections stated to the Bill, ft was not to be expected that a proposal to deal with railway -worka on a new principle would suit all parts of the Colony. He would be prepared in Committee to accept atnicable amendments, and before proposing to commit tho Bill would carefully consider tho proposal to refer it to a Select Committee. The House divided :— Ayks, 31 ; Noes, 5. Tho Bill was road a second time and ordered to bo committed to-morrow. The House roso at 1.20 a.m. [fhom oub special coeeespondent.J WELLINGTON, August 22 T have vory good reaeon fcr believing t.hat Mr J. 0. Richmond will immediately bo called i to the Upper House, and will accept offieo either as Native ot Public Works Ministor. If what I hear is correct, thero exists a, private arrangement between him and the Ministry that, if circumstances aro propitious, he will resign his seat in the Upper House on the eve of the approaching general election, and, if returned, will rotain his portfolio. I hinted at eomo such arrangement when Mr Richmond stood against Mr Levostam, and thero eeoms little doubt that it will now bo curried into effect. Ab a matter of course, if his chances at tho general election aro vory doubtful ho will keep his seat in tho Uppi<r Houon and tako his chance of retaining tho portfolio.