GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Star (Christchurch), Issue 2614, 10 August 1876, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

HOUSE! OF REPRESENTATIVES, Wednesday, Attoust 9.

Tho House mot at 2 30 p m. QUESTIONS, The Native Minister, in reply to Mr Taiaroa, rogarding oonrtponeation tor atone taken for eroding lighthouses »nd baildings at Otago Heads, said the report upon the matter had not been received yet, but it had been telegraphed for. Mr Gibbs asked tho Dofonoa Minister if he would inform the House what had been done towards the modification of tho restrictions on the sale of arms and ammunition whioh it wus promised laet Session Government would coneider with a view to something boing dono. Tho Nativb Ministbe said Orders in Council were being prepared that he thought would meet the views of hon members on this matter. NEW SIMS. The Ashburton and Mount Somors Railway Trust Bill (Mr Waaon), and Southland Dißtriot Drainage Bill (Mr HodgMnson), wore read a first time. OONTINITATIOK OF SBPADATION fiEl) \TIS. Mr Reader Wood oongratulatoa tho Ministers that they had at last entered tho lists, having been unablo to stranglo the dobate before tho Houbo could give the question fair consideration. This debate and others that must follow upon constitutional matt ore, must be regarded as the doath knoll of tho constitution under whioh tho country had thriven, under whioh tho forn and tussock had given place to the cornfield and meadow. Even now, although they had boon two months in tho House, it was impossible for anyone to say what maohinery of Government would supersede the system swept away. He looked on the two Bills brought down by Government as wrefcohed half measures that failed to grasp the question they dealt with in any oomprehensivo manner, Indeed, any Government ought to be ashamed of them. They were mere temporary expedients that would enable the Colony to get along by the device of Treasury bills. On tho contrary, the resolutions proposed were the only way out of the difficulty that beset the Colony. They met the financial and constitutional difficulties in a statesmanliko manner. There wore only two ooursos before them— that originally proposod by tho member for Waikato, or that proposed by Sir G. Grey. Any intermediate oourso oould only bo of a time-serving oharaoter. Tho member for Waikato demonstrated that there would be no difficulty in framing Bills out of theso resolutions, and he felt confident that the hon gentleman carriod conviction with him, and, in fact, established an old work that would bo impregnable. He was surprised at the way in whioh the Hon C. 0. Bowen referred to the arguments of Mr Bees, by calling them rookless accusations. The hon gentleman asked leave to show that Mr Reoa accusations did not deserve such an epithet. Ho would narrate the particulars regarding the case of Mr Roberts, Magistrate at Tauranga — (The Native Minister: "It is quite untrue. ) — and who was removed to the desert of Taupo. It was tho most foolish thing a Minister could do, and it would bo impossible under the circumstances to make any one believe that tho removal was made from pure motives. Then, as to reokless finance, Mr Reos said tho Premier altered tho balance by a stroke of his pen, and that last year's Jfinanoial Statement was wrong. Well, wbb it not admitted that a balance had boon altered and that last year's Statement was wrong P The Premier himself said that it was only natural his oolleagues should have overestimated the revenue. Did not the member for Akaroa, over and over again, point out that tho estimates would, never bo realisod. A|ter this, he would ask did not Mr Roes' statements demand an explanation. In disoussingtho resolutions, tho Minister of Justice glided over No. 1 without saying anything to it, Attacking No. 2 he said it appeared as if tho person , who drew up that had murder upon his. soul.' The third he oould not comprehend in any way, he could not dieioovor upon what basis it was framed} well.it was not upon population or acres. It was simply upon this basis, that fchoy could not pay moro than £200,000. It must bo under that or else tho arrangement oould not bo made. He noxt took exception to the fact that no provision had bqen made for looal maohinery of Govern* ment, /but their answer to ihis was that aaoh island was to manage its own affairs. A panegyric upon the Premier (wbioh aant that gentleman asleop) was the cpnoluaion of a spoeoh that was to have demolished the common sense speooh of , the member for Waikato. There was nothing, to reply to* The keonest sword was as nothing against a feather in the air, and,, the keenest lpgic could not reply to arguments that did not, exist. There was much, however, in Mr Button's spoeoh that he hoartily agreed with.. Ho Raid that if tho people wore in favour of the change ho would not objeofj to a phlii: ciVaw, and then be added that it was only, wanted *by Auokland and Otago. Why, they constituted half the,, Colony, and they were for separation as one man. (Loud applause, from the? Opposition and ",N^o, no " lEViM,' JQ^er, ifliflfl.)- Ihe #W#F had a^ked, if you separate, and one of you fail to «weJ;yAat,MabUitlef, what are you going to do? Why, the tame thing might be asked of *he Colony now. IJferything 'that belonged tii) ihk OoioflT Va« eedured to the puolio o^l^, .laad,;. Cugtoms, fthd: "sUmpß, .If Qb^ettuttTOtwo^d ad »itthei^ own measures ufitt t^ftwtWMfflHiHß^^BnjMßf ■nUiy ftlUPyy wJQidVft

through for them. Last year Government had an unwieldy majority, strong onough to keep them in power, but not strong onough to pass any of thoir measures, and the member for Hokitika said that if tho head and tail wore so dissatisfied, it would be bettor to lot them go. That was what thoy just wanted ; lefc them go. They had beor. asked , why thoy did not bring down a voto of want of oonfldonco. Well, tho reason was they wore afraid thoy would have ourriod it. Had they suoooodod, thoy might have been asked their polioy, and a vote of want of oonfldonoo moved, followed by their defeat ; and thesamo might happen to oithor euoooaaor, booauae there was a largo seotion of tho House that negativod everything and oroatod nothing. It was for theso reasons that they proferred to bring down their resolutions as thoy did, and got the whole ground oarofully examined. It had been urgod that pressure had oompollod them to go into grontor expenditure than thoy otherwise would, and that Mr Maoandrow was largely responsible for that state of things. There was no foundation for suoh a statement. On the oontrary, it was known that; tho fnonds of the Government had over and over again begged tho Ministry not to rush off as they wore going; but thoy had tho bit between thoir tooth, and pursued thoir reckless oareer, not knowing o?ton whither they wero going. Tho hon gentleman proceeded to criticise tho Premier's roply to Sir G. Grey, in complaining of the bald and moagro nature of tho resolutions, and said that every single moasure of importance over 1 introduced into fcho British Parliament had been brought in in some meagre way, so 03 to allow tho House to dobato tho prinoiplo. mko thoir own House and the Abolition resolutions of 1874. In that thoro wore three resolutions, but the sooond and third were more surplusage, having nothing to do with the firs!;, and yot the Veomiov had the effrontery to speak of fcho telegraphio brevity of Sir G. Groy'e resolutions. While agreeing in the main with Mr Whitakor's exposition of their polioy,; he did not think tho party would be bound by hi« statements with regard to Lieutenant- Govornors appointed by the* Crown. Ho believed it would bo preferable to have Presidents elootod by the people. Tho Premier had by anticipation; conjured up a landed estate for tho North Island. Well, £200,000 had boon spent on 1 that objoot, and £30,000 more at tho baok of it, and yot tho land fund of tho North Island was as bad as it was before. Ho wondered ho? either tho North or South Island membr a could have ever boon deluded in this nunner, but tho faob of ib was that tho astute Promier played om against the other. Tho hon member then analysed the ten years' table drawn up by tho Premier, whioh was to have loft tho Colony, after tho expondituro of £10,000,000, with a balanoe of £29,000. Tho money had boon spent, and instead of profit there was a serious loss. In 1873, the members of that Housopaid littlo attention to finanoial mattors. Fortunately, it was not so in tho Upper House, and when tho Colonial Seorotary was challenged rogarding the position, he said that things were going on all right, and informed them that in 1877 thoy would havo thirteen and a • half millions of dobt, and 750 miles of railway. What was the result? Why, they wore indebted eighteon and a half millions, and instead of 750 milos of railway they had only 550. In 1873 ho beggod tho House to pause, telling them that the Premier's figures wore oaloulated to delude. Ifc was uselossj they believed the Premier in preference to him. The hon gontleman gave flguros to show relative positions of North and South undor tho now adjustment. Tho peoplo of New Zealand had conflicting intorosts, which, together with, their topographical andpolitioal situation, made centralisation or any strong nationality impossible. Oould any particular plaoe or oentro in a oountry like that bo oalled a capital? How different was it with New South Wales and Victoria and other oountrios. Thoro Sydaoy and Viotoria wore the naturul centres, horo we had a oapital not made by nature, but by tho resolution of that House. But tho title was defeotivo, and henoe the jealous fear of the peoplo that they would lose it. But thoir resolutions wero as parohmont if thoy did not accord with the will of tho people He wanted to know how thoy wove going to impose laws for Otago and Auokland if the people would not have them. It oould not be done unless in some w \y, perhaps as Spain governed the Netherlands, or England mv posed a Government upon Ireland, oontrary to the wishes of the people. Ho asked tho House to leave them free to ohooso their own form of Government, evon if other parts of the Colony were willing to defy Sir J. Yogel as Premier. In tho course of his speooh, the hon gentleman gave the following figures as the oaloulation upon whioh tho arrangement between the North and South Islands have been made—- North Inland Customs' revenue, £600,000$ land fund, £130,000; total, £730,000. Interest on Colonial debt, £190,000,Provincial debt, £67,000? total, £257,000, thus leaving a balanoe of £473,000, with whioh to carry on ordinary business. South Island— Customs' revenue, £961,000 ,• land fund, £799,000 j total, £1,760.000. Interest on Colonial debt, £625,000 ; Provincial interest, £161,000 j whioh taken from revenue, left a balanoe available of £984,000. Tho Hon 33. W. Sta»i?obd pointed out i that until the mombor for Waikato gave them I some outline they had nothing to go upon, | and so elastio were the resolutions that had it 1 not been for that explanation they might have been carried out in almost any direction. Ho i regretted, howovor, that the explanation had not come, as it ought to have come, from ! the memberf or the Thames, and it was due to I the House tfaat they should have come from i him, though no doubt the relationship between (the twa hon gentlemen was po oloso that it ( might almost tW them to aooopt tho oxplanajtionas authoritative. When Mr Whttukor moved, hwrosolutJouß Sir , George Grey said ! everyone had mad 6 tip bio taipd how ho would I vote; and it was useless discussing the subject, I but he might as well have fluid tho same [with regard to hi« own resolutions.. . Ho ihad been r appealed to as a Canterbury member to vbte for the resolutions. .Before going further, he would inform the House that ho rofusod to be regarded as a Canterbury member. Ho claitqocj to be a member, for Tjm,aru, and to have tho right, to view 1 every question ooraiog before that House from ja colonial, point of view, instead of as a Canterbury representative. Why, ( he had, been elepted r by,Timaru,to representf , tfrem as fl^^the t te justice of tho yost.ofiC^ljerbury."He doprooated these territorial mofltmgs, whioh they frad aepn that Session* and tfeugti He tSad' De6n induced to attend one ,i>f Mm he sinoorely regretted jt, He, deeply *egrett«« to see the members from Otago not taking that positionwhioh mensbew . of influence and

ohoso. Thoro was nothing to provonfc them takinga high colonial position instead of always endeavouring to sogrogato tho Provinoe of Otago from tho rost of tho Colony. Ho was very glad to hoar tho member for Waikato say that ho intondod to bring forward again next yoar tho question of land revenue boing made Colonial rovonuo, and ho would promiso him a largor number of votes than ho had on tho last occasion. Tho membor for Wftikato told thorn ho had always been a Soparationißt, but ho had boon long at tho head of tho Ministry without proposing Separation, though ho did so in 1866, and was boaton by two to one, and over einoo ho had slept, politioftlly speaking. He would toll tho hon membor now that ho was woll awaro that his resolutions lost tho othor day wero in faob a real soherao, whilo those thoy wore disoussing were puro sham, booauso they broke down when examined, in every detail. Ho warned tho hon gentleman that undor tho proposod arrangomont fchoy would not get rid of their mutual liability rogarding thoir Provincial dobts. That detail was to bo determined yot. [Mr D. Reid : It has boon detorminod to take them. Why do you not mako it appoar so, so as not to mislead pooploP] But there wero other liabilities to bo provided for— suok as immigrants on their way out, railway plant ordorod, shipping, and othor charges. Not one of thooo things was over thought of. The hon gentleman proooeded to show that various othor flnanoial obligations had not boon considered or provided for in any way. It appeared to him that tho aooopting of these resolutions by the Colony would bo like progressing with ono hand tiod up. Touching our rotations with our public oroditors, he would bo propared to go in a direotion already suggOßtod, that was, in making tho land fund of tho Colony show to a groator oxtont than it did here, in tho form of assets of tho Colony. As to tho content and happiness referred to by tho membor for Waikato as provailing when the Colony was governed by two Provinoes, if over there wore a people moro likoly than any other to leavo all forms of Government alone, it was tho population of . this Colony j but what was the faot P Why, roforenoo to thoir library would show that the very greatest dissatisfaction prevailod against the ruling form of Govornmont, and if that were tho bost form of Government that oould bo dovisod, why did tho Governor sot to work and framo a Constitution tho very opposite to that undor whioh they woro said to dorivo so muoh huppinoss. The hon gentloman thon proooeded to show that Mr Whitaker's comparison botwoon the proposod federalism and that of Canada was wrong, and that tho maohinory proposod in tho ono oaso bore no earthly resomblanoo to the other, inasmuoh as the Fodoral Parliament of Canada dealt with no fewer than twenty- oight different subjoots, and aofcually oould put a stop to local works, provided it was for tho bonoflt of Canada as a wholo. Had Now Zealand a largo enough territory, ho would be willing to accept for New Zealand a Government the samo as that givon to tho Dominion of Canada, but there was no nooessifcy for it Ho disagreed with Mr Wood's argumerit that the topography of the Colony was against its unity, bocauso the immonso coast line, and its bays and indentations, aotually facilitated oomraunioation botween the poople of tho different parts of tho Colony. It was wrong for a membor io speak as if tho different parts of tho Colony had power to govern themselves as they liked. They wero a peoplo who had always boon undor ono system, and he hoped thoy always would. There was a foreign oountry that had not beon oitod as an illustration. Did thoy find any remnants of ProvinoiaHsm in Italy P Did not tho Italians, of thoir own free will, form a Government whioh managed tho affairs of Italy from one oontro, and had begun to restore some o£ tho ancient glories of Italy, that had beon uttorly lost while they had beon puny, quarrelling, and inefiloient States. The arrival of tho 6.30 adjournment inter* ruptod the hon gentleman. {From tlw Own CoiTcspond&nt of tlio J/ytteltow Ttroos.) Wbemngton, August 9. Both 1 Mr Whitaker and the Hon 0. 0. Bowen spoko very well last night, and Mr Reader Wood made a very Eloquent speech to-day, Mr Stafford is Btill speaking. Mr Wood was very bittor with Wellington about tho seat of Government. It seems doubtful whether the debate will end this week.