Parliamentary.

Thames Star, Volume VII, Issue 2067, 19 August 1875, Page 2

Parliamentary.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

EVENING SITTING.

WELLINGTON. Wednesday, 8 p.m. The Abolition Debate.

Mr Donald Eeid deprecated the references which had been made to the provincial officers in the House. He repudiated all such insinuations, and hoped no single member would allow himself to be influenced by any such taunts as those of acting from self-interest. Such insinuations as those referred to did not affect him in the least. Looking at the reasons adduced for the abolition of the provinces as keenly as he could, he could not find in them anything to influence him the least. It was an erroneous idea to suppose that Abolition would give the country districts a large share of the revenue. If Oamaru complained that the revenue raised from her lands was not spent in the district he would ask, ought not Oamaru to contribute to the maintenance and repair of the main road between Dunedin and Oamaru ? The coach and other traffic on it was heavy, and a portion of the expense should be chargeable on Oamaru. But was there nothing but their roads and ditches to be considered in a question of this kind ? The hon. gentleman referred to the insinuation of the hon.- member for Wakatip regarding the road to Tuapeka, and explained that owing to the migration of diggers, the Government had been unable to confine their attention to any single line of road. They followed up the diggers. It was argued that nine provinces were a bar to our progress, but the facts did not support this. Rather otherwise. The colony would attain greater eminence with these institutions than without them. At present they possessed true local Governments. What the bill promised them was not local self-government at all. If local government in Taranaki or other provinces had failed, that was no reason why provinces should be abolished. Why, for a similar reason they might say that the General Government should be abolished. The hon. member for Bangitikei had made in many respects an exceedingly able speech, but the only argument that seemed to underlie that was that the Provincial Government had not spent enough at Wanganui. He could not admit that the Government Bill granted local self-government. In fact, that House was not the one to grant local self-government. They were asked whence this recent solicitude as to an income and lantl tax ? But why in reply, was the newfound desire on the part of the General Government to extend local self-govern-ment to the colony. If the measure was carried it would be most damaging to the interests of the colony. As to the charges of maladministration against the" provincial administration of the waste lands of Otago, he would remind the House that any of the mal-administration referred to had been done under an Act of that House and by the late Colonial; Treasurer, who was then Provincial Treasurer in Otago. It appeared to him that from what he read in the Financial Statement and from other reasons, he could not disabuse his mind of the idea that the real aim of the Government was to get the land fund of the colony into their hands. They would prefer that to levying fresh taxation. They were told that the change was dictated from economical motives, but from what he knew of Provincial Governments he was convinced the idea was a mistake. The work could not be carried on without the help of these I officers or substitutes. If they were to give more to the people than they got from the province, where was the money to come from ? Would it not be taking from the people with fine hand and giving to them with another? # He would regret the day when Provincial Councils would abdicate their functions in favor of the General Assembly. After going carefully through the bill he could not see how the Government- could fulfil the promises made to the put-districts 3?hey were referred to Victoria as endowing road hoards out of consolidated revenue, but it must not be forgotten that she also paid in eight hundred thousand pounds from land fund into the consolidated revenue. (Hear, hear.) The system of granting* subsidies out of con-

solidated revenue could not possibly be continued, and if so would be undesirable. As compared with the Road Boai'da Bill in Otago, the present measure was a failure. In many respects it was copied from the Ofcago Provincial Ordinances, but unfortunately copied errors arid all. The hon.'gentleman deprecated destroying existing institutions at once, and then begin to'build up. It was no argument to say that other countries did without provincial institutions. Our circumstances were peculiar to ourselves. On the question of endowments, he must object to revenue coming first into the bands of the General Government, who might distribute it according to their good I pleasure. Taking their land, fund, and the charges the Government proposed to put upon it, the out-districts of Otago would be much better off under existing arrangements. It was really a pity that such a grave question as overthrowing a Constitution should be decided upon such narrow grounds as the amount of money each district had expended upon it. On one hand the Provincial Government were accused of rushing the land into the market, and on the other that they did not spend money enough. Speaking with some knowledge of these affairs, he made bold to say that members representing out-districts would find when this change took place that they would be a great deal worse off than tinder the present system. Regarding the sale of land in Otago, which was objected to, he could assure the House that the sale was one of the wisest acts that could have taken place at the time. It replenished the Treasury, and by selling inferior land they saved the best agricultural land they had, and which was eagerly sought after. From a political point of view he considered Abolition would have a most depressing effect pn the political life of the colony. Provincial Councils educated and elevated public opinion, and relieved the House of discussion on many small matters. While a most strenuous advocate for Central Legislation, he utterly abhorred Central Administration. It was rather noticeable that many of those who were so loud in their denunciation of Provincial. Councils; were .those who were rejected candidates for Provincial honours. New Zealand had been compared with Victoria, but the circumstances of the two colonies were not at all analogous. Melbourne was the capital of that colony, and was a place where all did their business, but who in Auckland or Otago came to Wellington tptransact their business P Regarding the other branch of the. Legislature, he hoped no serious interference would be made with it. They.had done good service once by saving this House from itself, and he hoped it would do so now. If the bill went into Committee, he would endeavour to make the bill the best he could, but he would not support the third reading before the bill went to the people.

Sir Cracroft Wilson said he was no mere paid Provincial servant. He was head of-the Executive of Canterbury, yet he would, in all honesty of conviction, support this bill. The substance of the remarks of the hon. member who just sat down appeared to be first, himself and family, next the Province of Otago, and lastly the Colony of New Zealand. He was pained to see the attitude taken by the hon. member for Auckland City West and the party he acted with, and he felt that, much as the House respected that hon. gentleman for his past services to the colony, he must expect, if he continued the same tactics, to be treated to the roughest language Parliament allowed. He regretted that the hon. gentleman had seen fit to make such a fierce onslaught" upon the Upper House, and especially so when entirely undeserved. The hon. gentleman referred to the previous legislation of the House of Eepresentatives, to show that the members of Otago alone were to blame if any poor man could not get as much land as he could pay for. Why, in twelve years twenty-seven different land laws were introduced into the House, arid sixteen of them actually passed. ■; He. doubted the sincerity'of this cry about the poor man, when coming from Otago members. All they cared about was the system of hundreds* by means of which they could graze cattle for little or nothing. The time for rising having arrived, the House adjourned.

This day. At;the evening sitting Sir 5 Cracroffc Wilson resumed the debate.. He', said that a year ago he was convinced of the evil of provincial servants holding seats in this House; He made an ; attempt to prevent them doing so, but unsuccessfully, -Subsequent experience had not altered his views. All economy was impossible while Provincial Councils prevailed. He believed if the Father of Lies wished to ruin a man he would make him stand for the office of Superintendent a second time—such were the effects of the office upon human nature. His vote would be given for the bill on disinterested grounds';. he loved the Pro-, vinces, and Canterbury particularly, but he loved New Zealand better.

Mr Cuthbertson would support the Bill and the Government in carrying it out during the present Session. He said the figures adduced by the- Lyttelton Times to shew that Boad Boards would be worse off, were, entirely fallacious. They were not there to discuss whether General or Provincial .Governments had made the most mistakes; he denied the power of anyone to prove that the Province of Otago would be worse off under the provisions of the Bill than now. Ho referred to the sale of Moa Flat, which he maintained was made without the cognizance of the people, and secretly, for 14s 7d per acre when the public could not have purchased it under a pound; such sale was a great loss to the colony. The bargain was only concluded because the Province was in extremis, and he could enumerate many similar instances. But who committed these faults was not the question—it was, were they .to allow two distinct syterns of Government and two distinct systems of finance to continue, rendering the Government of the Colony unintelligible and cumbrous, and eventually disastrous to the finances of the Colony? The perplexity of the creditors was also an impoitant point to bo considered. . How could they ever get a clear idea of their resources and sepu» rity amid such confusion ? He took issue on the assertiqn that political feeling would die out by abolition. On the contrary, political feeling was only now awakening; nothing would conduce to it so much as to bring the taxpayers face to face with the taxing powers. If by going out (?) they had. told the Provincial Governments they would give as much money as they liked upon condition the latter raised one-third themselves, this would have created political

life, checked the extravagance of Provincial Councils, and saved millions. He detailed several instances to show how the conflict of opinion between General and Provincial Governments often led to waste and damago to the public interest. Proyincialists said the time was inopportune^ but this was always the case with those interested on the other side. He was convinced that, whether he was returned or not, the next election would not send back to the House ten men for the present Opposition. This cry of appealing to the country was only an appeal for a longer lease of life to Provincial Governments. He hoped the Government would be warned, and render such impossible, and not be intimidated by the threat of the Opposition to resist to the death (as it had been said), and plunge the Colony in confusion because they alleged a legal doubt as to the power of the Assembly. He called Sir George Grey's attention to the despatch he sent home re passing declaratory Act re Westland. In conclusion, he said they were now engaged in removing, a blot on the Constitution, and l^fng do vra a "foundation which would broaden down frorritKe present to a precedent,, and eventually make New Zealand the foremost of the Australasian group. - Mr Takamoana said the Maories were not sufficiently represented, and if not more than four were to be in the next Parliament he should advise his people to send none; to leave the pakeha Council to the pakeha alone. He did not understand this quarrel between the General and Provincial Governments.

Mr Steward said his constituents were in entire accordance with him. His district was a lamentable instance of provincial mismanagement. With one of the finest districts in the colonyyup to 1868 scarcely one mile of metallic road had been.made, and ever since dissatisfaction with provincialism had increased. Although it had been treated better by the Province of late years, it did not get in public works half what it contributed in revenue, and he believed the district had contributed about a quarter of a million of money for which it never received anything. He ridiculed the idea of nine petty parliaments being necessary to govern three hundred thousand people. There must be a waste of force and money. As impecunious provinces must be helped, why help them through an intermediate body—why not directly? The lion, gentleman argued that the yoice of the country favored abolition, and looked for it; and that the duty of the Government was to go on regardless of all threats. Had the question been opposed to the wish of the people, the table of the House would this session have groaned with petitions against the change, but not one came. As there would be an immense amount of work bofore the House in codifying the immense mass of unintelligible provincial laws, there was no time to be lost._ Two courses, only were open. Either make nine little parliaments and -increase their present powers, or maw,* one. united colony with one supreme ((*s?eminent. Mr Yon der Heyde dejjrecated interfering with so sacred a thing as the Constitution without the unmistakeable sanction of the people. Sudden changes in legislation were bad. If the House had such ; power as was alleged what was to prevent it making Vthe duration of parliament ten years instead of .'five ? It was a pity the leading^nen on each side were not allowed to rS&tilate the matter fully, and then take a division. If the House could make these radical changes it could also revoke • compacts made twenty years ago. He was painfully aware that Auckland did not occupy the same.enviable position as the southern provinces, though it was hard to see why she should _ not. He, however, stood pledged to use his utmost endeavors to secure her rights. He would support the second reading of the bill, but beyond" that he would not go.

\ Mr McGillivray supported the bill, and made a long speech to show the needlessness of provincial institutions, and the mischievous effects traceable to them. It was a great pity for the colony they ever existed, for they had retarded her progress very much. *The sooner they were wiped out the better for the colony and the better for its credit at home.

; Mr Eeeves moved the adjournment of the debate. - -.;■;■ . Sir D. McLean moved that the debate be resumed at; 2.30.

The House adjourned at 12.20.