GERMANS IN NEW ZEALAND.

Timaru Herald, Volume CIII, Issue 15741, 27 August 1915, Page 3

GERMANS IN NEW ZEALAND.

DISCUSSION IX PARLIAMENT. CASE OF COLONEL SANDTMAN. (From Our Speciai Correspondent.) AVELLINGTONX, August 25. In the course of the discussion in the House on the Von Zedlitz case Dr A. Iv. Newman .said that not only the Von Zedlitz ease hut many others had disturbed the public mind. He understood that the- other day the Defence Minister had invited a man who had been in the German army, and who had held a. position in the New Zealand Defence Forces, to a meeting of officers at a military camp in Palmerston. to share all the information possessed by military circles. The Hon. J. Alien: I give that a most emphatic denial. Dr. Newman said that the gentleman to Whom lie referred had at any rate, with the invitation of somebody attended the camp, had been initiated to the secrets, and was in a position to communicate with the German Intelligence Department. There were I other Germans who had confidential information with regard to overseas shipping arrangements. A large number of uneducated men, with little knowledge of anything, had b<»-n put on Somes Island or Motuihi. In.t the highly educated Germans who could learn what was being done • and write about it were allowed to be at liberty. I The Hon. <T. Allen said that ho had i denied that he had invited the man referred to to Palmerston. He had no knowledge of any German attending any meeting at the camp, and ho did not know what meeting was referred to. Dr. Newman: I talked it over with yon two days ago. Mr Allen, continuing, said that he would givo the name of the gentlein.".:i : referred to. It was Colonel Sandtrcan. of Napier. | Mr Pavne: Is he a German? ; }lr Allen: Not that I knew of. j Mr Payne: He is a German soldier, and you know he is. Mr Al!on said that Colonel Sandi:niati had been with the New Zealand Reserve, of Officer? since the outbreak of the war. He had been prepared to join his battalion, but lie (Mr Allen) had thought it better that he should not. He believed that Colonel Bandtman was as loyal as himself. When a ■ may was loyal the Imperial autlinrities\Jiad directed that he should not be interfered with.

Mr Lee (Oamaru) said that it would have been more satisfactory if the Government instead of saying in regard to the A r on Zedlitz question that legislation would be introduced. "If necessary.'-' had said that it would introduce the necessary legislation to control the position. Public opinion was very strongly against the retention of Professor Von Zedlitz in h:s present capacity. (Hear, hear.) Mr Payne (Grey Lynn) at this stage made an. interjection to the effec: that people were beginning tc wonder whether there was not a German in the Cabinet. The Prime Minister iwe to a. point of order and asked whether such an it-ruondo as that made by the member for Grey Lynn, viz. that there was a German in tho Cabinet, was allowable. Mr Speaker: If any Member insinuates that there is a German in the Cabinet or in the House ho is not in older. Perhaps tho Member will explain what he meant, Mr Payne (evidently confusing members of the new Cabinet): I am told that the Minister for Justice is of German extraction, and that his mother was a. German. This announcement drew the eyes of astonished Members on to Dr. MeNab. the newly appointed Minister for Justice, and the humour of it caused the House to burst into a roar of hearty laughter. Mr Payne, continuing: if that is correct there is German blood in tho Cabinet. (Loud laughter.) If it is not correct I withdraw my remarks. MR PAYNE WITHDRAWS. The Speaker: The Hon. Member has no right to make an assertion like that- It is a very improper remark, and he ought to withdraw it. Mr Payne: I withdraw it. Dr. Mr-Nab, Minister for Justice, ros? amidst loud laughter to deny the charge made against him. (Renewed laughter.) REFERENCE TO ATTORNEYGENERAL. Mr Payne: 1 was not referring to Dr. MoNab. I was referring to Mr Ht>rdman. (Loud laughter.) Tho Attorney-General (Mr Herdman) who was until lately Minister for Justice, ros;- to mako a statement, but was .greeted with a renewal of the previous laughter. Mi- Speaker: The proceedings are becoming very disorderly. The Hon. Member has withdrawn his statement and there tho matter must end. Mr Herdman (who was evidently speaking with much feeling): Surely when such a dastardly statement is made the Member to whom it refers ha.s a. right to reply! Mr Spoaker said that the statement had been withdrawn. Mr Pollard (Ohinemnri): Is it not right when a. personal inflection is made on a Member that iris reply should take precedence of all other business ? Mr Speaker,: Tt has been withdrawn and that ends the matter. MR HERDMAN'S INDIGNANT DENIAL. Mr Herdman .sat down, but when Mr Lee concluded his sxjeech he (Mr Herdman) followed him. Tho Member for Grey Lynn, he said, speaking with great indignation, had made a dastardly statement, not only against himself but against his mother. "My mother," he said, "who" is living to-day, is Scotch from tho crown of her head to the soles of her feet- Any reflection upon her or upon my Scotch father, who is dead, or upon myself, I will resent in the strongest possible .fashion. (Hear, hear.) I hope that from end to end of the country the newspapers will make it perfectly clear that the insinuation is quite unwarranted.'' STATEMENT OF THE POSITION.

Mr Herdman, in proceeding to refer to the circumstances of the case of Professor Von Zediitz, said that from the beginning, tho Government had followed the instructions of the Imperial Government with regard to aliens. If a statement had been made about any person, naturalised or otherwise, it had been investigated, and where the Government had had reason to believe that there was danger of disloyalty in the case of any person, that person was interned. The Government had been told to intern any person belonging to the German army or navy, but not to intern any persons whose loyalty was Touched for by respectable, people. The Government limd done its duty, and had gone further probably than the British Government had. Professor Von Zediitz tendered his resignation to the chairman of the University College Council, but the speaker, though a member of the Council, had not known till' recently that the resignation liad been tendered. He did not think that the Council ever considered tne resignation. The chairman and other members considered that it was not desirable in the interests of the college that thev should part- with Professor Voy.

think that they ever officially considered the matter. It was late.r_ retLn-red to the Finance Committee of the Council, which, also -came to the conclusion that it was not in the interests of the Coll'ego. to iiarfc with his services. Mr Herdmnn added that he understood that the. Professor had had a German fathei' and an. English brother. He left Germany when ho was seven years of age. Ho was educated at Wellington. College in England, 'and at Oxford University., and was later in. some teaching institution in England. He had never been, naturalised, hut the speaker thought very little of t'ne power of naturalisation- Ho believed that Professor Von Zedlitz. when ho realised that his tenure of liis position was offensive, to the public, would retire before the Council! met again, but . lie was the servant of 'die Council, and not of the Government. There, was precedent for his retention, for in Glasgow University, there were two unnaturalised German professors. holding their chairs. Mr Pavno said that it was the kind of talk they bad Hist heard of sinking to the level of the Germans that had caused the loss of many lives'. Personally, lie believed that. Colonel Sandtman was a. fine man personally, but the fact that he was a German could not be overlooked. Mr Payne spoke vcry strong'ly against the retention: of Professor Von Zedlitz in his present position, and said social influences were evidently at work. Mr Nosworthy said that the answer to his question by the Government, he considered very satisfactory, hut he thought that it was right that the opinion of the House and of the country should be made clear. If Professor Von. Zedlitz had the feelings of a Britisher, he would have insisted that his resignation should be accepted, but he understood that the Chief .Justice- and someone else advised the Professor not to resign. Mr Fletcher: You are wrong about the Chief Justice. Mr Nosworthy: Well, I was tokl it was he. deffxce op the profeSsSor

Mr Hindmarsh said that students who had attended Processor Von Zediitz's classes had stated that the Professor had never attempted to inculcate anything in the minds of his students, that was derogatory to tho British Empire. On tho other hand tho Professor had always denounced the methods of antosraey and despotism. There was positive evidence that he was a most loyal subject. A Member- What is the evidence? - Mr Hindmarsh : The statements of his pupils. GERMANS WHO WftLK ABOUT AS FREE MEN. Mr C. J. Parr vEden), said that in New Zealand we could never resort tothe German methods of brutality. It was very important that the Government should take reasonable measures for our protection against spies. The German system of espionage was at work even to-day in New Zealand, and other portions, of l.'iie British Empire. The Government should take no risks. There were. Germans walking about as free- men, who were much more dangerous to our commonwealth than the University Professor. He considered that it was a. mistake to allow exofficials of the German Empire to go about, as free men without surveillance, and thus with, every opportunity of doing evil. German officials were potential German spies in any country. In this _ respect, the Government, in his opinion, had been too considerate. STATEMENT BV PRIME, MINISTER. The Prime Minister asked whether anything could be clearer than his reply to Mr Nosworthy. Mr Pearce (Patea) : Why not remove the Professor from his position? Mr Massey: He is under the control of the University Council, and the Government has no control over the Council. The Council, received fees from students as well as a contribution from the State, and that was where the Government had no control. When the war broke out, the Government i eceived very explicit instructions from the Imperial Government in regard to the treatment of aliens, and these instructions had been strictly followed. Tho case of Professor Von Zedlitz had been considered by the Aliens Board, -*nd tho evidence taken by that board showed that lie was loyal to the British Empire. He could not give the evidence as. it was given on the understanding that it was to bo treated as confidential, but he could give the names of the witnesses who were called. (Mr Massey then read the names of t'no witnesses, who included members of the College Council, Professor Hunter, Mr Hill, chairman of the Wellington Patriotic Association, and others.) The Aliens' Board reported that there, was no cause for internment made out against the Professor. He (Mr Massey) was loyal to the backbone, but he would be no party to anything in the wav of persecution. (Hear, hear.) WHAT THE GO\'ERNMB:-CT WILL

Mr Massey went on to make an important statement regarding the Government's intentions, it was tho duty of every teacher, he said, whether luc was a. professor m a university college or a teacher in the primary schools, to do everything possible to inculcate patriotism in his pupils. "I do not," said Mr Massey, "see how an enemy subject can doit." (Hear, hear.) The answer given to Mr Nosworthy's question w~as perfectly simple and p!lain. Tlje Government luul ho control over

the University College Council or the Professor, but it did not believe- in a continuance of the present position. The answer that he had given, to the question was not only his own. answer, it was that of every member of tho Cabinet, all of whom had approved of it. THE PROFESSOR MUST RETIRE. "If steps are not taken either by the University Council, or by the Professor himself, to remove him frovn his present position before the session comes to an end," added Mr Massey, "the Government will introduce legislation on the subject. Nothing can be clearer than that. I say in the plainest possible terms that the present position cannot be alb wed to go on, but that Professor Von Zedlitz must be s'epar- , .?ted from the position that he occupies at present.' - I MR NOSWORTHY MISINFORMED. j Per Press Association. i WELLINGTON. Aug. 26. During tho discussion in the House last night on the case of Professor Von Zedlitz, Mr Nosworthy stated that he had been informed that Sir Robert Stout (Chief Justice and a member of tho Victoria Universitv College Council) had advised the professor not to resign. _Mr Fletcher pointed cut at the tune, by way of interjection, that Mr Nosworthy had been misinformed. This correction was subsequently confirmed by Mr Wilford. Mr Wilford, after communicating with Sir Robert Stout 1 ) bad not spoken to .Professoiwas authorised by the Chief Justice to say that the report tendered by Mr Nosworthy was absolutely incorrect, and further, that he (Sir Robert Stout) had not spoken to Professor Von Zedlitz since the war began. I . 1 =