GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Timaru Herald, Volume XXIII, Issue 1246, 23 August 1875, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

v [prom oira correspondent.] Wellington, Friday Evening. Mr Reeves and the Hon. Mr Stafford made splendid'speeches last night. Mr Reeves' was the beat yet made on the Opposition side. Mr' Stafford's speoch was a masterly v,effort, m support of the Goyerimie.ilt, although he disclaimed any innuence beyond that of a private mem-ber-T-one of the rank and file. When. Mr

Stafford ended the applause and cheering were most enthusiastic, and owing to the reluctance of any other member to follow him, there vnm very nearly a sndden division. Tho Speaker had called on the Hon. Major Atkinson to reply, when Mr White rose and made an amusing impromptu speech. Mr Fitzherbert was to have followed Mr Stafford, but he changed his mind. Both Mr Fitzherberfc and Sir George Grey are to address a meeting of the electors at the Hutt on Saturday night. Special trains are laid on for the occasion. I find that there is a feeling among members of tho Legislative Council strongly m favor of immediate abolition, aud if an issue is sent up by the Houie there m little doubt that it will pass by a large majority. They think it desirable not to let the question await the general election, because m that case such an immense influence may be used by the provincial authorities to turn the scale of the elections. This consideration, which ■is rather a dangerous point, was not raised m the House, but it has exercised much influence, though not expressed, m inducing members to press for an immediate settlement of the question. After considerable negotiation botween Mr Fitzherbert and Ministers, the former wanting two nights to himself which the latter would not agree to, a compromise was come to to the effect that he should have the whole of last evening's sitting to himself, and speak as long as he liked. He declared that he was quite ready, and at half-past seven last night rose and dolivoredone of the moat able speeches he ever made, but much top long, lasting five hours continuously. It was extremely clever and plausible, although abounding m fallacies and sophistries. It will exercise no influence on the votes. Thirty-five members now have spoken and twenty-three more have expressed their intention to speak to the question. It is expected, however, that the debate will close on Friday next, and it is thought very probable that the second reading may be carried without a division, the Opposition reserving their strength for attacks m detail m Committee. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES. Wellington, Thursday Evening. As near as can be ascertained now, the votes for the second reading of tho Abolition Bill will be — Messrs Andrews, Atkinson, Ballance, Bastian, Bluett, Bowen, Bradshaw. W. C. Brown, J. E. Brown, Bruce, Buckland, Carrington, Creighton, Curtis, Cuthbertson, Gibbs, Ingles, Jackson, Johnston, Katene, T. Kelly, W. Kelly, Kenny, Luckie, May, McGillivray, McGlaahan, D. McLean, G. McLean, Mervyn, Munro, O'Connor, O'Neill,. Onnond, Parata, 0. Parker, G. B. Parker, Pearce, Pyke, Reynolds, Richardson , Richmond,C.Shepherd, J. Sheppard, Stafford, Steward, Tribe, Wakelield, Wales, Webb, Williams, [ Wilson, 63 ; against the second reading — Messrs Brandon, Bunny, Dignan, Fitzherbert, Grey, Harrison, Hunter, Macandrew, Montgomery, Murray, O'Rorke, Reeves, Reid, Rolleston, Sheehan, Swanson, Taiaroa, Takamoana, Thompson, Vonderhyde, Ward, White, Wood, 23. Messrs J. 0. Brown and Taiaroa are looked on as rather doubtful, but' it is generally understood that they will vote as given above, m any , case the Government will have a majority on the second reading of at least twenty-five, but already there are indications of hard fighting m Committee on details of construction. .•• i ■■;!.- [PKR PRESS AGENCY.]. ... • Wellington, Wednesday Evening. The Napier Swamp Nuisance Bill passed; . : Sir Donald McLean gave formal notice that the debate on the Abolition Bill will take the place of all other business until its conclusion, excepting on Wednesday next, which should be devoted to. private business. , . . . ' - ; ; ; Mr. Rolleston gave notice to move for information as to the. manner m which the Legislature signified its desire for tho removal of the judges. In reply to Mr T. Kelly, the Treasurer said that credit would not be allowed to the , district of Taranaki for proceeds of Tailj way reserves sold to the General Government within the province. They did. not feel justified m opening up such questions, although regretting the way these reserves were disposed of.- ' Mr Sheehan asked whether it was intended to take any steps towards imI proving tho entrance to the harbor of Gisborno. The Treasurer said that the matter was purely provincial, and reminded the hon. member that the House had voted forty thousand pounds for public works m the North Island. On the House resuming at 7.30, Sir Cracroft Wilson took up the" abolition ' subject by Hansardising himself to prove his consistency, and showed that years ago he was so fully .convinced of the evil of provincial servants holding seats m that House, that he made an attempt to prevent them doing so, -but unsuccessfully. Subsequent experience had not altered his views. He was 'still of the opinion he enunciated m 1869 m the -Canterbury Council, that under provincialism it took two uneducated men to legislate; for, an educated man. Economy was impossible while provincial councils prevailed. He would not say they would secure economy without provincial government!., but it was possible, and it ought to ' be secured, and it would entirely depend- upon the men selected by _the..people. The hon. gentleman . delivered , himself, -, of - a humorous commentary -upon Sup'eriritendents, m the 1 course of which he- remarkefd that if thie father of lies- wished. 'to utterly ruin a man, the best' plan would be to make him a Superintendent, and get him to stand for office a second time. Such- were the effects and influences of the office of Superintendent upon human nature. In conclusion he would only say that his vote',' was 'g^ven' for. the Bill upon most disinterested grounds. He loved the provinces, and loved . , Canterbury dearly ; but he loved New Zealand better. . .-•'.- : _- ■ l): . Mr Cuthbertson rose to support the Bill. : While complimenting, the hon. member "for Taieri and .member for Akaroa:upon the clever manipulation of facts and figures they adduced against the Bill, Ke -drew attention --to the fact ihat the figures adduced by the Lijttelton Times to show that road boards would be worse off underthe present Bill did not agree with the figures given by the hon. member for Akaroa, though both were, intended >to prove 'the. same thing and had subsequently been characterised by the Press, newspaper, aa dishonest. He contended that the figurea adduced by the hon. member for Taieri, even, if. correct, were far wide of the mark and of the question m hand. They were not 'there to discuss whether the Provincial Council had done its duty m administration or not," or whether, as the member for Avon said, tlie General Government or Provincial Councils had "made more mistakes. When I the- hon-.. member, for Taieri deprecated I imputing merfieaarj^^mptiYesSJtQ .mem- j

bers of that House, he should not have taunted certain members with aiding to overturn provincialism because they were defeated aspirants for political honors m Provincial Councils. He had also held that the passing of the abolition measure, and consequently long sessions, would cause a class of politicians to spring up who made a business of politics. Well, such an assertion should not have proceeded from one who, like others, was m receipt of public money, and had been for years. That was a bad feature of provincialism. It was one that was specially provided against m Canada, and ought not to be tolerated anywhere. To say tho loast, it was dangerous. As to Otago being worse off under the provisions of the Bill than it is now, he defied anyone to prove such a statement. He quoted figures as against Mr Reid's, and he was prepared to prove his own statement was correct. Referring to the Moa Flat sale, he said that the sale was effected without cognisance of the people, and secretly for 14s 7d per acre, when the public could not have purchased it under a pound per acre. It was idle to say that the land was not agricultural. It was well adapted for mixed settlement. Though a great loss to the colony the bargain was perhaps not a bad one for tho Provincial Treasury under the circumstances, because the province was m extremities. He exonerated the gentleman who effected the sale, bu* he called attention to the matter to show what happened under provincial administration, and as a direct consequence of the provincial system. . . He could ennumerate many similar instances, but this was not the question, it was not who committed most faults, but was it wise to allow two distinct systems of Government, two distinct systems of finance, to continue running side by side, frequently coming into collision, rendering the Government of the colony unintelligible and cumbrous, and eventually to become utterly disastrous to our finance. The hon. member for Taieri had not reforred to this perplexity of the case at all. Their public creditors was another point to be considered. How could they ever get a clear idea of the resources and security offered by the country amid such confusion of ideas as must prevail. It had ako been alleged that abolition would bo fatal to the political life of the people, but ho joined iasue upon that. Political life was only now awakening. Nothing would conduce so much to the growth of political life as bringing the taxed face to face with the taxing power. Had the General Government, 'years ago, said we will give you as much money as you like, but upon this stipulation, that you should raise one-third of it yourself, that would have created political life, and have been a check upon tho extravagance of Councils. It would have saved millions to the colony. This Bill, he maintained, would stir a political life throughout tho colony, at every fir«side, at every Road Board, and every Shire Council. And why ? Because of the direct intereit every locality would have m the conductof the colonial finance. Although tho provinces had ample taxing powers, they never used them. The hon. member for Parnell said that this pro. posal had been made to conceal an enormous deßcit. This was not true. If it was, however, what was the conclusion, but that we should remove all complications and simplify our system of finance. The hon. gentleman then detailed several instances to show how a conflict of opinion between the Provincial and General Governments was often una voidable, - and always led- to ~.~ waste and damage to public interest. It was remarkable that^this year, provincialists had made a great change of front. Last year they asserted that Provincial Governments were good m themselves. Now they'Baid the time was inopportune, but the time was always inopportune to those who were interested m maintaining an established system. If they had to go to the country, ho ventured to siy for his constituents, that whether they returned him or not, they would return a man pledged to vote for immediate abolition, and 'he would say more, that the next election would not send back more than ten to form another Opposition. This .cry of going to the country was a deep one. In it lay concealed the last resort of the Opposition. They hoped that m a new Parliament of inexperienced men they had a chance in' the provincial school ; and being acquainted with what had been called "doubling," they hoped to distract young members, and perhaps secure another lease of life for this wretched system. But the Government should be warned, and make that issue impossible. He hoped that the Government would not allow themselves to be intimidated by the threat of Opposition to resist to the death and plunge the colony into confusion, simply because they alleged that there was a legal doubt as to the power of the Assembly to abolish. What a commentary such a threat was on the patriotism of the Opposition. He was surprised at the attitude the hon. member for Auckland City West took up now, forgetful of the dispatch he sent home at the passing of the Declaration Act regarding Westland. That Act did not confer a fresh power, for they had that already ; but the hon. gentleman's dispatch enclosed a memorandum from Mr Stafford distinctly asking for power to abolish all the provinces if required, and the Bill sent out from home was an answer to that request. Nothing could ;be plainer, but the hon. member's ,(Sir George Grey's) memory was evidently short, on that subject. In touching on the composition of the Upper House the hon. gentleman deprecated the ingenious appeal made to it by the hop. member for Taieri. Without bespeaking their favor or assistance, he could, say that under whatever .system the Upper House wa3 composed, and no matter how the members got there, the Council as a whole was. probably as good as could be got under any system. He was surprised, after the way m which the member for Auckland City West spoke of the Council the other day, to hear him applaud the remarks of the hon. member for Taieri: That was blowing, hot arid cold with a vengeance. ' What did the hon. member (Sir George i Grey) mean ? If Sir George Grey thought that the Council did not understand such tactics, and 'i would treat them with the contempt they deserved, • he (Mr Cuthbertson) would tell him that, .long and. distinguished as his political : career had been, his parliamentary educa- '■ tion was yet to begin.- ■In conclusion, he would say that they were now- engaged m removing a blot from their political system and laying down a foundation ,of. freedom, which would broaden down from precedent to precedent, and eventually i make these islands m material prosperity and political liberty foremost of the Australian group. (Applause.)

■Mr Takamoana spoke^njfavor of remitting the Bill to the constituencies, and making Sir George Grey chief of all the Maoris. He said that the Maoris were not sufficiently represented m Parliament. They were treated like decoy kaka3 to entice the whole flock to be destroyed. If they did not get more representatives, the pakehas could have Parliament to themselves. _ ..-._ ..... ■_.■....' „.".,.

Mr Steward said that hejand his constituent* held identical opinions upon the question under discussion. His district was a lamentable instance of provincial mismanagement. With one of the finest districts m the colony, it had scarcely one mile of metalled road up to the year 1868. Ever since dissatisfaction with provincialism had increased, and not without reason. The amount contributed as revenue since 1868 by that district was double what had been returned to it m the shape of public works. Were it possible to got an accurate balance sheet 'of what was received from and spent m the district, it would be found that it had contributed to the province something between • a qu arter of a mill ion and three hundred thousand pounds, and thafcwithoufc any return. Be the faults and shortcomings of the General Government what they may, there must be an enormous lois of power and money, to have nine Parliaments making law* for three hundred thousand people. There was no doubt some of the provinces were unable to perform their functions. It was clear that the Government must help them. In that case, he maintained, it would be better for the Government to assist them directly instead of through intermediate hands. The lion, gentleman argued that the voice was m favor of abolition. When lie met his constituents, there were 250 of them without a dissentient voice who affirmed that abolition should be extended to the whole of the colony as soon as possible. That very night he had received a telogram stating that his constituents were almost unanimous m favor of the Government measure. It was the duty of the House and Government to proceed with this measure, regardless of the threats so treely made m the House, and of the' tall writing m Northern papeis about brands and powder. Last session so dangerous was it considered to leave so important a piece Of legislation unsettled, that the propriety of holding a short session was mooted, and probably would have been held, but that the Government supporters opposed the idea on the ground that it might be considered they were taking undue advantage. They said give the country a year to consider. The people had considered, and if the change had been repugnant to them, this session would have seen the table so loaded with petitions, that no Governvernmont dared proceed against the wishes so supported. They were asked not to destroy the Constitution Bill, they had a new and perfect one prepared to tade its place. That was asking the impossible. Whoever heard of a person building a new house before removing the old one. No, this was the beginning of a great work. There was an immense mass of provincial legislation which would entail an enormous amount of work m codification, and would take a considerable time. The House was now committed to the work, and there must be no hanging back. There was no alternative m the present position of the colony, but either to make nine separate little Parliaments, with powersincreasedbeyond what they at present possessed, or else to make the colony a united' whole, one and indivisable, based on a foundation that would broaden down from precedent to precedent, and eventually make New Zealand the foremost colony of the Australian group. (Loud applause!) _ . ; Mr Von der Hyde expressed his pro-, found veneration, for the constitution, an alteration or sweeping away. of which^ he considered, could not be ventured upon withoutmostserious consideration. Hasty legislation was bad. He regretted; that some arrangement had not been made whereby the leading speakers on each side! should thoroughly ventilate the question, and then go to a vote. It always appeared to him that the province of Auckland was m a more unhappy position than the southern provinces. She had no land fund and could not construct any public works and he stood pledged to do 'his best to get justice done to Auckland. It appeared to him that if they could ~' alter the Constitution they could also alter compacts made twenty years ago. If the House possessed .such unlimited power to alter the Constitution, what was. to prevent thorn legislating bo as to enable them to continue members of that House for ten years instead of five as at present; After their oxperience regarding the capitation tax he very much doubted any promises the Government made. The member for Waitaki tried to' make a point m saying before ho proceeded to erect a new edifice he would pull down the old one. There he differed. He would think twice before pulling down the roof that sheltered him bo long unless ho had another one ready to. cover him. He would support the second reading of the Bill, but would not go beyond that. Mr McGillivray supported the Bill. A fundamental error m the Constitution was endowing subordinate bodies with such legislative powers as they had been exercising. Unfortunately our Constitution was framed after the model of the United States, a model from which had flowed results frightful to contemplate, and which it was to be sincerely hoped might never be witnessed m New Zealand. The hon. member for Auckland City Wesb attributed the progress of the colony to provincialism, but on looking' to the progress made by the neighboring colonies without the help of that kind of Government, he maintained that provincialism equally, had retarded progress, and if they changed such a complicated' system of Government their ., credit m •Europe would be greatly improved. The chief arguments of the Opposition were directed against the centralising, tendencies of the General Government, but look at the central administration ■of the United Kingdom and they would see that it aided and assisted local legislation/in 1 everyway poawble with the welfare : 'of ithe country: 'Take the case ot fSbdtiMd which' to thiß day had a number of laws' m operation having more affinity to the old feudal and Roman laws than those of England. Our system was utterly incomprehensible. Why, a; greater curiosity could not be sent to the British Museum than a copy o£ the many divera' laws m operation here, and there ■ were no fewer than 240 Provincial Councillors. : , Mr Reeves moved the adjournment of. the debate. ' • , Sir Donald McLean moved — " That the debate be resumed at 2.30 on Thursday." The House adjourned at 12.30..^ „. : ■ . . . . . ■ ' Thursday Evening. •'-Mr Reeves took ; up the ■ abolition debate. He said that the magnitude of the question was bo great as to involve the deaiest interests of the colony, and yet the Government asked them to dispose of Buch* a question m the most rash and inconsiderate manner, and without , that thorough consideration of the subject the country and the House had a ; right .to expect. Looking back .to the initiation of the question, they conld-not bnt be struck with the want of grasp and continuity it displayed, and be astonished at the haphazard ■ and.., piecemeal way • m which this subject had been introduced and followed up. Referring to his' Exce- j lency's opening speech of the previous BessioD, and to the financial statement which followed it, it was impossible to; find may tieoe dfthe' revolutionary, pro-

■ posals which came on the heels of the i State Forests Bill. Clearly there was a ; connexion between the two. He chal- . lenged Ministers to say whether a single i day before the State Forests Bill a single word had been said m the Cabiuet about the present revolutionary measure. If they answered m the negative, then the measure was hasty and ill advised. If : not the House was deceived. The State - Forests Bill was a flimsy pretext to hand over an immense proportion of the public estate which had been placed m the custody of the provinces. After a year's calm deliberation, he must say that the Bill concealed a deliberate attempt on the part of the General Government to seize the landed estate of the .; colony. The debate evoked on the State Foroats Bill and tho protests callod forth by it were the sole cause of these abolition proposals, but even when the abolition resolutions were laid before the House the Premier repudiated and reiterated tho statement that there were no designs on Canterbury and Otago, and he could refer the House for proof to the hon. gentleman's own words. When the House broke up at the end of the session, it was distinctly understood by the House and country that so long as these provinces carried on satisfactorily it would be no part of the policy of Ministers to interfere with their institutions. Well, the work of Government had been carried on to the satisfaction of the majority of the inhabitants of these provinces, and the Government had broken a solemn pledge. The last they had heard of the late Premier was when he told tha. people of Auckland that he would employ a ' barrister of colonial reputation to prepare a measure which would be acceptable to the colony, but that was the last they had heard of it since, and when they assembled this session what did they find but that the Government were taking np an attitude as]if they meant to carry out nothing more than what was embodied m the resolution of last soßsion. What * else could be gathered from the paragraph referring to the matter m the Governor's speech. Despite all this evidence, they brought down a Bill to abcHish all the provinces. Was not this an instance of the divided mind of 'the Ministry ? He believed that the original intention of the Government was not to apply abolition to the whole of the provinces, but they departed from their promises because" they were influenced by the advice of their protector, he would not call him their friend, the member for Timaru. ("Hear, hear," and "No, no.") He repeated it, and would say that the Government had been guilty of a großß breach of the pledge given by the late Premier. Hepromised to hold inviolate the Compact regarding the land fund, and it was insulting to their common sense to casuistically say that they wore not breaking that Compact. Their true and only control over the land lay m the Provincial' Government, and without that it was a delusion. , ("No, no," ' from Ministers.) The measure was hasty and imperfect. It was a breach of faith, and it also exhibited^ plainly that Ministers had not taken suf-| ficient precaution to determine! whether they had the necessary, power, to deal withi the r question. The diversity of legal! opinion on the point made it abundantly plain that there were doubts on the point, and that the advice of the Imperial law; adviser should have been td,keh. Did not' his Excellency^ ; or Ministry, to satisfy doubts on" me matter, consult thpprown lawyers on the point. At least he underr stood the Minister of Justice to say so. [The Hon. Mr Bowen : " I said.' I never said jSO'"J . Mr Reeves : Then Ido not know. the.- meaning of words. ' 'You either meant that or nothing, and now you tell us you meant nothing. This Bill was entirely unworthy of the ; occasion. The main object of the Bill Was to deprive ,the people of tHe power of electing their 'oyn Superintendents arid Provincial Cpdncil-: lors. Were the Road Boards and tnunicipal powers conferred by this Bill to"fill the gap? Certainly not. The Government merely displayed these ,to make,way for their nominated,agouts,. . ("N0, n0.") Did they not appeal to the patriotism of Superintendents, and beg. them , to milk themselves.^. and: take officer under the General ..Government..' It yv&a therefore as clear. as daylight that the Government' wished "to secure the services of the-Su-perintendents, and intended them to retain their seats m that 'House, so that they might acquire the nine votes' of their nominated agents. ' These, with'the three' or four rotes of the native rbpr'eßenta- , tives, influences by the Native Minister, would make a very pretty hand of, | trumps, aild would, place, the House and country at the mercy of Ministers. The chances of obtaining justice m the House if that Bill passed would be more or less remote. He said that the measure was imperfect. The confession of Ministers admitted that it was only . a selection measure. They might have added that it was a provincial interregnum, m which the Governor would rule the country by orders m Council. He could not give up what he had for such an unsubstantial return. The Bill did appeal to the intelligence ' of the people, ibut their pooketa their" lowest instincts, but the promises held out were shadowy jahd not certain to b« realised!; ''.' What the. 'Assembly did one day it'^couijdV.no'tjun^o' the' next. The fulfilment of these. pro- T mises depended entirely upon the revenue, and if that did not enable subsidies to be paid they would not be paid. "Going. by. the financial statement and that of public works, he could see that ihey'would soon have to. rely upon the Customg revenue. That waß very, precarious,. because wages through tha colony- hod been' increased fifty per cent;,' but: that was due entirely to the largo expenditure of 'borrowed' xioney. ■■ The ;Cu atom's 'revenue ' always: lepended upon, the rates of wages, • arid ivhen borttiwed' m'oiie^ 1 an end, ;he Customs i- revenue ■' mtist at''.cra'<3e'Jdesrease- 'The'^Hon'. Miiiii'ter y o'f r .'Pablip Works 1 calculated largy.7',nppn ,th'e ..' pro-, ceeds of public works; and railways, but there he differed from himl "While admitting the policy pf public ,j?prks._was tfie wisest ever .enunciated- in ihe> colony, he felt that he must not look to, them, for revenue purposes for the first few "years.: Upon the initiation of the mainlines m. England,' they paid large . diyidends, but they disappeared as branch rail way*' were Opened. If a few of our short lines. paid / Well at first their,-, earnings . r would. £c, shallowed' up when the whole nine hundred miles- were opened.: : -/:He:;Wouldremind the Minister of Public.lSforks that, m a short time the interest on tho loans would be over one million of money.and that by the time our railways were thoroughly completed and appointed we would have to. pay ten or fifteen per cent, beyond the 1 estimated present ; cost,' j and addition to the. debt of the colony would be soon required. ' took atMthe matter how they liked m connection '..vitix'^bis L Bill, and they must admit Vttistt .lt' was 'an' ill concealed attempt to get' possession of, the lands fund. It arose put of the dire necessity of the colony, though Ministers.! denied that. Had they. boldly admitted j that, at onoe, |he might have been 1 found supporting them, but could not now that they were told that. there had been_too much parish business. '-J3ut this Bill would really give them u agteafr "deal

more parish business. It would "lwd to one month's sessions, and to the'spsinging up of a claw of professional politicians instead of a more desirable class of men' who could afford to devote their, tilde to their country. Ministers told theni that public opinion throughout the_ colony impelled them to push on with the measure..: He entirely denied that, ... opinioi) was divided, but the balance was m favor of postponing the measure. The. Minister of Justice quoted to the House words of Mr Godloy to show that when the functions of the provinces passed away the Government of the country would assume a'form like the United Kingdom,- but the Substitute proposed was- more after 'the system of prefects m France. The hbn. member pointed to Superintendents' tis the"'embodiment of Oaesarism. When 'did that ohange of opinion take placo. Not long ago the hon. gentleman was about to. contest the Siiperintendency of Canterbury, but now he was the Brutus, , who .was ready f$ plunge the dagger of sham patriotism into the bosom of the first Caesar or Superintendent. The . hon. gentleman here contradicted what he characterised as a most wanton and oruel attack upon a certain Superintendent made last night by the hon. member of Heathcote, and was repeatedly and loudly applauded from all parts of the House r f or his defence of a man who could not defend himself. The hon. member also said that some Superintendents were emasculated, but he could tell the. House that, that gentleman had. matte it widely knpwa that he would act as Superintendent,'. without salary if elected. • But .tnese ;, people would not have him at hie own prioa. :In conclusion, he would support the second, reading and give all possible assistanceiin amending the Bill m Committee, but he would endeavor to prevent the Bill being passed finally through the House. Mr Curtis referred to the proposals last year and said that the people had the whole year to consider, /them. ',' Looking at the details of the Bill, he felt' bound to say that it pretty fully met tha wants of the case and would make him support the Bill heartily. While free to admit the usefulness of road boards he did not consider that they were capable of. taking the place of Provincial Governments, and his doubts upon that point were relieved when he saw that the Government did not as yet intend to make them take the place of provincialism. Referring to the legal doubts raised as to. the power of the Assembly to abolish, he disagreed with the action of the Government m not seeking the opinion of the Imperial law officers on the matter. Considering the close connection of the Attorney-General with the Government, they ought not to hare accepted his opinion as final. He gathered from the remarks of the hon. member for Selwyn that another legal objection .waß raised, namely, that the Compact of 1856 prevented the Assembly from abolishing the provinces, but he would answer. tha hon. gentleman with his own words. What the Assembly did one day thiy could undo the next, and there 'was : Wo doubt the Assembly had ' most ; ample power to abolish if it chose to do B6"nbiwithstanding the Compact' of '66; fc ' Efiß reasons for supporting the 'Bill' were'diflfei^ ent from some speakers'.. He supppr^. it m the hope of seeing one simple"; cocte of legislation , tp ( , apply .thrpughqutj, $hp colony.' and thus avoid the conflict and confusion^rising out of such .miscouanejoiis; legislation ,as wt*s seen m the different provinces. ■ It ; was- .wise; that the : Governsment.did not attempt to replace all /thai legislation at one stroke with- some'at* tempts at a perfect system, for that would be impossible: They oould riot devise 1 4 grand system to put an end to- the| many evils ofifrovincialism 'm one Bessicm'.-; It would be the work of : . many.' ' Reifeniititf to the pressure Which it was/ Baid the . ptf vmces brought jbb teat upon 1 th^'do^rijal Treasurer^' th4 : hon. gehtlema'n jald^^ if the jßiUwasjjassed^iti would' Render such pressure impossible m future.; ; Hflp; was it; that the j present Treasurer made his statement clear and intelligible com-, pared with previous. statements ,?...; Was ib that he'ihad greater ability, than previous. Treasurers 7 No ;it was that for the first time this year's statement was ■ not rendered incomprehensible -by the :variousprovlncial^oharges yhich. previously ; had; made nearly every' member m the" Hbuso' despair of understanding' the, finances' of ' the colony. In supporting thij Bill-'H^j did not do it with; the idea thatlocalad-; ministration would be greatly^ihioroyedii I There, was more centralising; tendency, than that of the General .Government.,Constantly were Provincial Governments ' > called . upon ■to • interfere to /protect out' : districts .from the centralising tendencies; of road boards; He did riot support' the' Bill because of the greater" advantages' provided for out districts. 1 Indeed, ho. thought that they should get more thin the Bill gave them. He did not believe any economy would be effected "by tne 'change, because it led to long Parliaments, ;and consequent expenses, as m, all the, ; other Australian colonies. He did not. 'approve of the localisation of land fund,; which simply meant ithat the , districts ■ whiohleast needed money, wonld get mosfc.i In that respect the Timaru andGladstene' Act would be an entire failure. -That was J a feature of , the Measure which he hoped 1 ;that the' Government would rMphmclfljb' and' amend: Objections Had beet! 'ttJciu'' to provincial districts being retained,'- but j that was a great, advantage., It wo'uW be^ absolutely necessary to retain provincial , boundaries for some time,, so as,to enable , them to charge interest upon provincial r loans, to the districts and people iwhobenefited.by them. That waat one strong' reason ; f or his supporting the: Bill. •In * the: interests of the prdyince'he'^amWj from* he felt bound to support that; parj^ >f 'the Bill. ;To do away with provlnci&JEJ"' jpundaries and ipreM Vad \\^h&^* r jver^ 'JtjieC ivholo coldny^fwjoiud^'^defrau^ NelsoW 6uto? half oi^jp^j^jr^ - [t ';appoared', .th« ,yoice ait ;tne ip^spter iroin all parts of the colony favored aboli- n tion. '.(Hear, hoar,. and hisses). >He isaid -t it did, .though there might be a difference d of; opinion as to what was to xeplaae.pro- '• vincial: government, but ho did not at*'' tribute much weight' to these public m'oeK L , Ings; Each person looked at ; |hefm 'frcrtn his own point of view, like the mah^lip^;. i?hen asked which are the' lbt^Ui^e.nfc^ ped'ple, V said those; . who ch;eer'','' ; nip^ and, j who are; the mob, those whp / ' ; ap|piiiift; r yOU. "'• ■ ". .'. .-.'.'. . '"'?.-:'.•" Wr-v.-iifsSi ; The House rose, at; 2. 15. " ■^lui'.l.i .r.od j At 7.30, when the House- resttmedfAlp^ Ward',. of : Wairau, gave 'an 'address .M li strong : opposition " to ; thtf '.' Government 1 ' Measures. ' . ''' ' ; ! ° ij , ' ''~'' L '' f J ■'■• ' : ' ■' :: Saturday finning:, ' ',; j On the House resuming at 7.30 laWt 1 ereh^ '_' ytgi Mr Fitzherbert rose amid great' applause ' : to upeak on the abolition question. ' He 1 said* that bo regarded the preient oircumgtances of ' the'; Colony di critical in' the extreme. : 'He,X should mlbrth the House 1 that he felt som.&f.; ffhat embarrassed on this 'occasion^ Defedketiis'^ should have to make up for last session, when' ' be had not an opportunity of speaking : to ihtf'; abolition resolution. When they word bronghf?" down last session, he felt as if he was speak- ;' jngto a- dead wall, inasmuch as he' Waß speak-' ing to a foregone conclusion.' He^ouldhare'' felt more' erabarrased sfciUj 1 bat ; tnat*he" gaW^ come holes m the wall which troald enable ah tcho;tp reach, tbe publieibeyonclp uSlhe'hdnvJ member proceeded to criticwe the_ argufflenfatt of the "Colonial Treasurer regarding &p legal

pjwerof the Assembly to abolish-the provinoesj namely, that if they could ; abolish the '. North Island provinces, and that were legal, as it: was, and that they could aUo legally abolish those m tlie Sputh Island, as they ' oould dp, then they could logically abolish all. : The hon. gontleman, m reply to that, r quoted the case of Mcßoth v Ashley, m the House of Lords on the 16th and 17th of May ' last; s case which was exactly analugou's. In that case it was decided that' the ■ mogißtrates acting under an Act of Parliament, although ■: : empowered m their discretion to take certain '.• districts under their jurisdiction, separately i- . and m detail, could not do bo m globo. .; One operation as such would bo an invasion , oftheh»w. Comment was unnecessary. Tho peculiar kind of reasoning of the Treasurer ■was shown m another point. He hold that lie would not meddle without ho could amend, but ho did. meddle' and did not amend. To come to. the finance of tho colony as affected by' the Bill. Largo appropriations out of.the ■ ; lßn'd'fun(| were to be mode j but the proposal ' sppeafod to him to' amount to tbiß: it was • throwing'a sprat ! to.cdtch a mackorel. The : sprat would full into' the 'open maw of the : provinciftl'dißtricts, 'but the lurW would become subjodt for all time to tho disposition of .i that House.- -Tho provincial districts would • : never seA -their land fund again. The land ! fun'd- .'would become subject to all the appro- ■ : priutioiis of tho Houso, and any clamour mudo tpgetit.buck .would beifruitloss. Tho reply of thfljOolpnial Treasurer would be "hands off; that's, colonial Revenue." Tho requiromentg of . the' colony w.ould. soon become enormous. Further fundß would be absolutely necessary. Taxation would become inevitable ; but tho Ministry dared riot venture their seats by trying that. No, (hoy would throw but a tempting bait to enable them to lay hands upon the land fuiia. He could tell them that. They 'would 'hot say that tho bailiff had, already 'i-beon herd and taken stock as to the'-ahjount of I ■ security 'wd"coald offor-fur furthbr - loans,- and / if tbey : : went • into ■ the -market for .'furtho*. loans, ho would' assure the Govorn- ■ jnoht thUt they would ■bb prepared to offer to tho npxt lender the lanft- fundias'.Bpecittc ■ eeoyrity. ~Wken doubts wero ruiacd that, tho Gfovoiiirndnt would 'subsidise to. tho oxtqnt ' proposed ; out ; of the consolidated revenuo,. they Wore' told that it waa done m Victoria, ; m the ignorance^ that the land fund therb was , ' cdnaolidatca reyonue.. Tho 's)-Btom of finance proposed was retrograde, it wiis reintroduoiiig the vicibus system of provincial chargee, and would lead- to surambles' -and logrolling. Another illogical argument usod by the : Treasurer. 'was that he accused, provincialism ' of centralising too much, and m the feaiue ■ breath actually held tip as a crimo: that, they created .harbor boards and education boards, for. doing m fact the very easenco of decentralising, by divesting themselves of.a great portion of thoir powers. ProvincialUts^ wore acoiised of a want of national feeling, but speaking with a fiill knowledge of the subject, he : said' that nothing did more to creato a. national feolirig! than provincialism. ' A great '.deal hadi ' been'snid about; 'hihi clidnjiugjliW opinion^ 'of being an ardeut' cirntralist iJuo'/dajr' and ' another" a proviiibiaiis't-tut as long iis acha'nge, "of Opinion' %a6 ' not coinciaent ' -with' a ; change •of interest jit' was-not'clbroghtoiT l '- to"-'a- manJ • The Colonial ; Treasurer told .' them the queß-j ■■ tion had • :been referrod to. the '< electors', and! tthey;' had . da'cided. tWell,'he referred -'>tHe! House tp.-, the,, words, iof ; the. Hon. Major' • Atkinsort, -vvhen addressing, his constituents at! .Taranaki, when he told them that the:. Govern -: not intend-to .abolish the .Souiihorn; "jProvincesor^interfere; with thpir. hind fund.j He "also aaid^ tliat/.the' public .workß, schemb' 'yr'as meant, to ; Eventually extinguish the pro- i ' How' could heat price bring opprp-; I>riith : upon 'bifl cPlleagUes, aud cluitn ' to. fiav.e 'acte'd'iriobedieWie to the r dxpVeßsold.'wUhesbf the publib'P' "There had'beeu Jab. such wisließ, iatid his colleagues had' promised to preserve intadfc the Southern Proviribe's,- which '; they now demred ttf destroy* -The ' Colonial .Trea 1 - told them that there 'had been : a great confliot for years paßt between centralism 'and proyincialism.buty then parliamentary history disproved ' that statement. Mr Sewell : exprea9e.d. his desire to act m cordial cooperation W-itb.,l Prpyipoial ■ Governmenta., ;^Mr Fox entered office afjferwards.fpr:a Bhorf^time, and fluring ihat perip.b^ proposed, -that a.fixed.prpportion. of |th"c" land revenua „of the colopy sopuld be made cpLibjarreyenue. , , ( Next came MrV /Stafford/ who; parrie'4 .'the r'esolvition for idoklisvrig.the land revenue, and .in,' opposition io' : 'BiiJ . ' of., it being treated- as colonial- ! - r'eyenvle'. ' ' ' 'This ■ ' Was the ', gebtlpinnh'' vfKp'-' 'pow . qam'e : -forward as" the Gdvern'ment 1 ehampiohi "but who rat. that time ''had' "•' these -''dpihiori'sV Which could' not be designated by any other term than that/of the narrowest provincial spirit. In 185S)i i under peculiar circumstances, >his Ijon. friend passed : the New Provinces Act, which some of. his friends contended was iv the interests of, the provinces. It could not oertain]y,be.t;ak.en as a measure for.the.deatruotiou"of the ; provinces,, but rather for ttheirr r multiplication. Mr S"ox repjaced.'M (•_ Stafford . in,' 1801, and"' Mr FoW, during' the : ' whole] of that tinie 1 , ha'd^be'eh cbriside'red; a strong Prb-, viiicialiat; 1 jtod- he would : ;ask, ; -there'frfre; ■where bad been. thegreaH; 'struggle spoken' of by i'hia | 'hon.^ 'frientl! 'the • prbaSiifc-.' CoJoriial' Treasurer .l'NeJEt oanietheDoinHtt^Ministry, and- in 1862 ilr \i EitzGeraldj! aiprivate meid-i ber,introd.uce(l!,itha Nominated:Superintei)----4ents-Bj)l,; which w;as .discharged fcom the order papfijT. | 1n, ,1865,. nn the. mptiop. . -Of./M.r. yogel, that .halt the, stflpay.jduties, be taken for.^he jnroviuceßf the W f e)d ■ went o\it u Md M^, pucceedeil, Uu^ did.ha give 1 the I . .firpvirioes ' half/'fclie st'a'ulp duties' tfheirhe'goVinttf officei'lh' 1865 air Stafford came into 'office; and the -LociJ Gbyerbineut 1 Bill* ink CoWnty-ttf Westiaiid- Bill 'Were inty6d»«Sedf.'i'iruilß69 Mr :Foxkjj(aiW fcopk'wffice oatho'gibund thatiilwiStafforil'a'iparty was too., antiprovincial.v 1 1 In. i IB72j;:Mr- SSaffiird' topkoffici;. !fpiri;a;ißhort!'tiiue,';rtnd: ..waa.suori ce^ed .byitha .-.VogoL, Mjaiß^ry,. abdi ,iu%1874'. tW^re^pijitio}is,foi' .the abolition pf the pr6-_ vwyfe^W.t^e'N^rthl^aiiXwßro, .brought for-, wari'iu^th'atj Assembly;.', Theroyris. no,. sign, of aiiy^reatcOriflicfin all ihi?.. i to the'Miuiater 'of he^tb'ld'tlieW.that Colonial'^"Trbasurer'and' hi'»n3i:lfja'nipng f 'the| nlembe r rß,''h'ad'tb I resi4lftKc-brg'ahiie(Vjp?e3Bu^^ of ! % the;^pr6vindee,rut«t r wrt3 that 1 ftuyrbastiii' fo'r^d«strOyjn^' themi ?- ; TM hbii-: i ge'ntlem'att tried to beseyet'eron what he'-'plea'seclto <callCaejurs, but this Bill 'seemed to bimito 'be" a' remarkable pie\Jo pf-Gaesarism. ; it- reminded him oj tha; enaotuient pj-e|)ai:ed t f,or.thuifirat; Napoleon,' .enahUnghini.itip, throw. ahyoue.' into,^e* ( Ba^f ille, ani^ }y;hen[' thejAct.iipasi: ihownfcb' him' hf said /it mußt,Jhiiyo ,a; pre-, *&ble'.^f,'two pages,' aiidi they must I}e;j^il^*.j)f a liberal lde I **!' Then. the speeches' ot Miuistersy codtrSdicted/ dML : { other.'',. TU V^'Coibnial Kcitourer 'tbld^the HbUse f thit' th'e'c'duitry wsr With themj >but ihe-MinlSter' 6? if nstSbe! told them that they musfc'-lose no time, .ahd he was right.- --He" w.aS' afraid to^go -to' the' country^.for- ha knew that they would neyer; 1 ■ have "a,, ghost of a: eha v nce:of:carryingthe: Bill m ' : ,ti&b. : way. ■ ,(ppppsition, applanae;)i Touching on the financial nature of the Billy.: he miiat eßophatically say that it was nothing mbre tb»n ' » desip'ri. upon' 'the land fund .qfthje provibcei. It, was'the falsest of false pre-, tnice^ to'e'ay that it 'was the needs 'pf the provinces 'that Wre the' "cause 1 of if." ' Touching L«]meagure and the position which the' hon. member *for- v> Timarii ' held towards i^.lhe; opcupied a most equivocal .iposition. ; It.jTyaa-.ha .who . phould hare, had thp framing of; that -measure .and. the intrpdu- . oingb'f it from the '(Government benches,. /J^po hon, gentleman quoted the words of Mr Stafford' in.1872 v?,he.h lie. was a prophet of gloom, ar^d lie. quoted his recent speech when he •tated that he wouldloyaHy, support, t,be;.Qpvarn'menVuppn .any question, upon which t|iey. would stake., their position. Now he would liie 'to know how far the support of the. hongentleman -would' go upon the question of raising the. loan and. its, subsequent jnyostm.ehlijjh'oWifor it would go .regarding dealings, of'.'f'the'^Crpyernment:, with the ; . confiscated lands and the/sale of native i lands ; how far he ; would-be willing tp.confine the.grea,t quostion: of the' feeatment of the judges of, the gupromo ■ Cpurt 1 .. Tquphingjthe capitation tax, and -thto changes made, in. it, .aithough he- admitted thathweideof the! Hoiise was wrong as to foots and figures regarding that tax, , still his

side was right m spirit because the change made was capricious arid upset- all that regu- ' larity and certainty on the resources of the provinces that wa3 so important to them, especially when their income wus so small that they should be able to calculate it oxactly from year to year. The hon. member for Timaru freely quoted the history of Greeco, France, and the Uuited • States to show the evils. of something supposed to represent provinoialism, but ho never heard such a reading of history, or of history so turned upside down. For if the world was indebted to any peoplo it was those despised and wretched little republics, that illumiuated the genius of munkind then. The hon. member for Timaru, for instance, referred to France to show tho evils of provincialism, but never was there a more unfortunate citation, for ho would road to the House tho extract from a greut historian to show that when once iv the boundaries of a parish or central jurisdiction, one was struck by tho excellent roads and bridges and the healthy tone of cotnmorcial life, which was the state of France when her provincial governments were destroyed and the . nation was emasculated. ' She became like a man bound hand and foot for yeara, for when you cut his thongs he was still paralysed from long bondage. Another unfortunate instance was that of the United Stales. There the Central Government was no doubt greatly provoked, but they did not destroy tho States ; they suspended thorn, and what could the President attribute his present unpopularity to but the fact that he punished the State of Louisiana too inuqh :; by : carrying punishment too far. But no 6ne m the Unitod States ovor ouce thought of abolition/ They would if they had been of tho same mind as that Homo.- There wa3 no instance among nations to show the vitality of provin--ciuliam ? There waa Switzerland ; what betterexample could they have. Those little cantons had no doubt to strengthen . tho whnlo power to resist outsido pressure but they never abandoned their provincial .rights: The danger. with us was., the growth', of the overshftdo\ying power pf^ tho' central" power of 1 his country. ' The non.. member^ forTicrmr.i rold ' them Mr Gilliiia'' opinion' 'as tho legality of abolition. f lt waa liot given as from 1 a lawyer but ds' a political partisan." Well; he did not believe thut 1 gentleman, now 1 occupying so high apposition, woulcl hold two" opinions and: dcrcievo tho people. That gen- 1 tlemauihnd told him that 'he had no doubt! that the legislature- had no, pbwor to abolish the •provinces,, and he quoted ; tho :very decision quoted to tho House : that ' night. The hor*. member for Timaru gave tham ; per: sonal experionco of his, own .regarding pro-, vinoialiam, and of how tho Council would not indoninifyhiui for an unauthorised expeudi•of£sohohad mado 20 years ngo. Surely, the future historian of New Zealand would atfcributo the dbwufall of provincialism to tba nonpayment of that £5Ws They were told that Superintendents wore iiot' reprosenta--tivcs: of tho people, or that they had no power as such; '-but; how'^ many deputation^' had Superintendents to attend tb m the course of; :the year?. Ministers' do if: thoy ..had to. dispuas and- attend to the -thousand ,at)d- . one small, -w^nts . tthaJb-j Superintbudentd ;tad to attend to ?, : Or put .it iu:thia.\vay— ; suit tho. people' of thg'.cpuntry 'to. have ■t,6' j .fiud.'.t(hejr.. way to, .^be, offices, of "Minister^ to^emeily jtheir,'grie,yauces, r .wliich,j J "hyvvev'ar small filotoi;! a' colonial pbinf of view,! : were'most important to them? r His' answer; once to the h'bn.^member'' was that ' pro- ; ■ yiticial 'institutions were 'the "palladium of -their liber bies ( and 'this House, 'although the: •biggest.'Provincial 'Cou'iioil-iin' 'NeVvfZealaud. \ ,wo 3 .the most. ■■ important and: incapable, i .Turning to the, Bill '.what did theyliudin: it ; ,but a, mass of; imperfection covered' by; tlie power of. his, Excellency , to : ameixd • by ; orders m Council? Jt. was thie- most and-! logical Goyernmeu't Bill that could well have! been produ6ed.' Ifc-had no more construe-; tioh : than a pile bf 'bricks ' thrown down m; the street.' He' admitted that thefo were! mauy defects .m the. present system, but he; was of 'opinion that with' the mode of change j proposed,; by- not giviug the people their 6wu :; revenues' without: interference,: and the! power of electing their ■; own -chief ''oxe-j tive officers, they . deprived thenv of ' :the i most necessary elements of, sound and popular | Gpyernment. I'he.hon. geiifileiuau;th^u,read ; to ; ' .the. .House , . the ;pg}iiiou. of-; a, high British civil functionary to the /effect, that. the British Parliament' ; was J boconiing far,", top I aViergrown/ and that^tlip larger powers should beVgranted; lb'caliy,' lha't, lnsh' affair's sho'uld'ho managed 1 ' m, IrelandV' and ' Scotf ieb affaira 'm S6bbland, and' ho w^iild that House that if tfiey carried' this - measure' they wbrctijiiiiß Uießpeßdiest'courJetO scver'tho'xorohy.; The poople iwould not submit to it. ' Tliey would rebel againsti i it.- Road Jboar'ds' -and ■ shires would- not satisfy • tlie ■ aspirations and ambitions.of the people. They. would havo : tomake up tlioir inii)ds:i to ■ sit six, 'eight and. nine' mpnths m Wellington.-jiiWere they .prepared foe that.,, .He aajred t/|euj nqt.to: bo/.aoctised. of.pringing^.^rprk", and n.ot -^...disregard ithe request to^appqal.fQjthe, w.ishea.pf the; ppople.i Cpmi'ng . tp^ tho , ffieifng_' of ., tha-^peopie ,of thecbtpnyjln'one"''rq'ap r ect.iti was intoxiuatqd. . It ih£d'b'eeli,oxi3tiri^-.oiV stimfiianU.,. la.conclu-, si6'n Mr'FitzlVeir.fe!: warried 'j;luV House : * that. by 1 pressing tlm'. measure 1 tkrougli without ai^ appeal' td'dho' p^pplSj'thjy ! were .doing their utmost- tb^bririf 'fl.bbu.f. a' .separation of the colorty.- Din-iijg' ' the 1 • past ;fivo r 'years 6u.au' aVeidi^A' ttVoii<- anndiir'cOldrii:il >; rori;nue.' ; wiis r £I ) 36o,oGOp'Jiaud^ their khniial 1 'borroWng* po wen waii £2,O0OiO0O." ■ For; th'e' BamePperldd ; as. that l]n p. had' i borrowed; iteii'&illiohs:'- "ln' the sau'ie i-iiUo)ithfli'bbrrov>ing;po ! w'er of Franco • would .be. £133,0P.0iO0O; yoarly -for flvoye(irs|i and: of.:EngliUid..it would -.be i"! £192,000,000 yeailj^ iV>r L a likajperio/l, , -If} either of/thesoGoYiv'.rnments posses^qd sucji enormous 6pendr ; mg 'powers on public. works, jthoqffftot^ oh; .the cpnimuinity.nfbuld.tej tliat m;. EjOgland; even, tholib'ertibs'pf tho^peqpje ' cojuid ,npt tdineS ligains^ th'o'lnfl^en'pe pf-,^i:ibQs ;i \yhichj tiie^o^er^imeiit^migiie'offer^^^ cpuld resist the'couifoi'aiid 'exerciso' of bo vast ambh'eb'ary'poVfSf'i'ind y©t' tliey.Wero'askodto inorease-the altbs^ly'tb.b !! dangerb ; u3 p'Owdr of th'e^reaent GroveniAierifc 1 ' ilrj l ;'-'.';' l \ '■■''■■', '''" o{tho v Hduse'aidjonriiedyat' 12.20 ; td TUeaday ' pexb.\.:-i'!> .b;r,q ud .Ksrs L.ii;«'.-,y v -.•.;; Imjv.j