PARLIAMENTARY.

Thames Advertiser, Volume VIII, Issue 2126, 20 August 1875, Page 2

PARLIAMENTARY.

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HOUSE OP EEPUESENTATiVES.

Wellington, Thursday, 21 p.m. " ABOLITION DEBATE.' At tho evening sitting last night, Sir Cracroft Wilson resumed the debate. Ho said that a year ago he was convinced 'of tho ov'il of'provincial sorvants holding seals in this House. Ho made an attempt .to prevent them doing so, but .unsuccessfully. Subsequent experience had not altered his views.. All economy was im- : possible while Provincial Councils' provailed. He believed if the Father of Lies wished to ruin a;manhe would make him stand for the office of Superintendent a second timo-such were the effects of the office'upon' human nature.' His vote would bo given for the bill on disinterested grounds j ho loved, the provinces, and Canterbury particularly, but ho loved New Zealand bettor.. Mr Cuthberisoa would support tho bill and tbo Government in carrying it out during tho present session. ' Ho said the figures adduced by tbo Lyttellon Times to show that rojid boardsjwould bo worse off were entirely fallacious. They wcro not thero to discuss" whethor General or Provincial Governments, had made the most mistakes. Ho denied tho power of anyone to provo that tho proviuco of Otago would be worse off under tho provisions of the bill than now. Ho referred to the sale of Moa Flat, which he maintained was made,without the cognizance of the people, and secretly, for Us 7d per acre, when the public could not have purchased it under a pound. Such sale : was a great loss to'tho colony. Tho bargain \m only concluded because tho ■ province was in extremis, and he. could ; enumerate many similar instances. But who committed theso faults was not ; tho question-it was, were they to allow two distinct systems of Government and : two distinct systems of finance to con- . tinue, rendering tho Government of the colony unintelligible and cumbrous, and eventually disastrous to the finances of the colony? Tho perplexity of tho creditors was also an important point to ; be considered. How could they ever got .a clear idea of their resources and security amid such confusion ? Ho took '■ issuo on the assertion that political feel- ' ing would die out by Abolilion. On the 1 contrary, political feeling was only now ! awakening j nothing would conduce to it ' so much as to bring tho taxpayers face to • face with the taxing powers. If by going ; out (?) they had told the Provincial . Governments, they would give as much ' money as they liked upon condition tho latter raises one-third them.

solves, this would havo created polUioal lifo, checked tho extravagnnco ot Pro* vinoial Councilsi and saved millions. Ho detailed sovcral instances to show how the conflict of opinion between Genoral and rrovinciarGovemmcnls often led to waste and damage to tho public interest. Provincialists.said tho tiino was inopportune, but this" was always tho oaso with thoso interested on tho other sido. Ho WBS convinced that, whether ho was returned or not, tho next election would not send back to tho Houso ten mon for tho proscnt Opposition. His cry of appealing to tho country was only an nppcnl for a longer lcaso of lifo to Provincial Governments. Ho hoped tho Government would bo warned, and render such impossible, nnd not bo intimidated by tho threat of tho Opposition to' resist to tho death (as it had.been said),.and plungo .tho colony in confusion, bceauso thry alleged a legal doubt as to tho power of tho Assembly. Ho called Sir Georgo 'Grey's attention to tho despatch he scut ro. passing Declaratory Aotro Weslland. In conclusion,'ho said Ihcy were now engaged iii removing a blot on (ho Constitution, and laying down a foundation which would broaden down from the present to a precedent, and eventually make New Zealaud tho foremost of tho Australasian group. . ,- MrTakamoana said tho Maoriswcro not sufficiently rcpresentod, and if not : more than four wcro to bo in ■ tho next Parliament he should advise his' people to send none; to leavo tho pakcha Council to tho pakcha alone. Ho did not understand this quarrel 1 between' tho General and Provincial Government.

Mr Steward said his constituents wcro in entire aceordanco with him. His district was a lamentable instance of provincial mismanagement. With ono of tho finest districts in tho colony, up to 1868 scarcely ono mile of metalled road had been made, and ever since dissatisfaction with provincialism had increased. Although it had ..been treated better by tho province of laloycars.it did not get in public works half what it contributed in revenue, and ho believed • tho district had contributed about'a' quarter of a million of money for whioh it novcr received anything. Ho ridiculed tho idea of nino potty parliaments being necessary : ' to govern threo hundred thousand people There must bo a wasto of forco and money. As impecunious provinces must bo helped, why help them through an intermediate body—why not directly P Tho hon. gentleman argued that tho voice of tho oountry favoured Abolition, and looked for it; and that tho duly of tho Government was to go on regardless of all throats. Had the question been i opposed to tho wish of llio people, tho tabic of tho Houso would this sossion havo groaned wjth petitions ogainsl tho change, but not ono came. As lliero would bo nn immenso amount of-work before tho Houso in codifying tho immenso mass of unintolligiblo provincial laws, tbcro was no limp to c be lost.. Two courses only were open, Kithor niako nino little parliaments, and increase their present powers, or make one united colony with one'suprenio' Government. Mr "Von dcr Hcydo'deprecated interfering with so sacred a thing as tho Constitution ; without" tho : ,unmistakablo sanction of tho people Sudden changes in legislation wore bad! ' If tho Houso had such power as was alleged what was to prevent it making tho duration of Parliament ten yeara instead of five ? It was a pity tho leading men..on. each sido wore not allowed to vontilato. tho matter fully, and then tako a division. If tho House could make thoso radical changes it could also rovok'o'' compacts niado twenty years ago. Ho was painfully ' aware that Auckland did not occupy tho same enviable position as tho Southern provinces, though it was hard.to boo why she should not. Ho, however, stood pledged to use his utmost endeavours to secure her rights.. Ho would support tho second reading of tho'bill, but boyond that ho would not go. Mr McGillivray supported tho bill, and mado a long spoeck to shbtv tho Heedlessness of provincial institutions, and tho mischievous effects traceable to thorn. It was a great pity for tho colony thoy ever existed, for ' thoy had retarded her progress very much. Tho sooner thoy wcro wiped out tho bolter for tho colony and tho better for its credit at home. Mr Kcoves moved tho adjournment of tho debate, Sir D. MoLcan moved that tho dobalo bo resumed at 2,30. Tho Houso adjourned at 12,20, Thursday, 6 p.m. MISOELUNKOUS.' " ' Tho Houso of Eoproscntatives mot at 3,30 p.m. Tho Nnpior Swamp Nuisauco Bill was passed, air Donald McLean gavo formal notice that tho debato on tho Abolition Bill tako ' precedence of all other business until its [ conclusion excepting on Wednesday noxt, ' which should bo devoted to privato buei« ness.

Mr Bolloston gave notice tomovo for information as to the. manner in which the Legislature signified its desiro for tbo removal of tho Judges; In reply to Mr T. Kollv, the Colonial Treasurer B'aid credit would not bo allowed to tho district of Taranaki for tho ceeds of tho railway reserves sold to tho General Government within the province, They did not feel justified in opening up such questions, although regretting tho way these reserves wcro disposed of, Mr Shcehan asked whether it was intended to lako any steps towards improving tho cntranco to tho harbour ot Gjsborno. 'J he Treasurer said tho matter was purely provincial, and reminded iho hon. member that tho House had voted £<W,OOO for public works in tho North Island. ABOLITION QUBSTION.

; 8 p.m. Mr Beeves took up tho Abolition debate. Tho magnitude of tho question was so.great as to involve tho dearest interests of tho colony, and yet tho Government asked them, to dispose of such a question in tho most rash and inconsiderate and without that thorough consideration of tho subject tho country and House had a right lo expect. Looking back to tho initiation of the question, they could not but bo struck with tho want of grasp and continuity it displayed, and bo astonished at tho haphazard and piecemeal way in which this subject had been introduced and followed up. JUeferring lo bis Excellency's opening speech tho previous sossion, and to tho financial Statement which followed it, it was impossible to find any trace of tho revolutionary proposals which camo upon tho heels of tho State Forests Bill. Clearly there was a connection botwecn tho two. Ho challenged Ministers to say whether a single day beforo tho State Forests Bill a single word had boon said in tho Cabinet about tho present revo* lutionary measure. If thoy answered in tho negative, then tho measure was hasty and ill-advised i if not, tho Houso was deceived. Tho Stalo Forests

Bill was a flimsy pretext to hand over an immense proportion of tho publio estate, which had been placed' in tho custody of ,tbo .provinces. After a year's calm deliberation, be must say that that bill concealed a deliberate attempt on the part of tho General Governmentto seize the landed estate of the colony. The debate on the State Forests Bill and tho protests called forth by it, were tho cause of those Abolition proposak But even when tho Abolition resolutions wero laid before the houso, tho Premier repudiated and reiterated the statement tbat.thore Were no designs'upon Canterbury and Otago, and he could refer tho 11 ouse.for'proof to the bon. gentleman's own words. When tho Houso broke up at the end of the session, it was distinctly understood by the House" and the country that so long as theso provinces 'carried on satisfactorily it would be no part of tho policy of Ministers to interfere with their institutions. Well, the work of the Government had been carried on to the satisfaction of a majority of tho inhabitants of theso provinces, and tbo Government had broken a solemn pledge. Iho last they heard of Iho late Premier was when he, told the people of Auckland he would employ a barrister of colonial reputation to prepare a measure which would bo acceptable to the colony, but that'was the last they heard of it since, and when they J assembled this' session what did they find?' Why, that tho Government were taking up an attitude as if they meant to carry out nothing more than what was embodied in the resolutions of'last session. What else could bo gathered from the paragraph referring to tho mattor in the Governor's speech. In despite of all this evidence they brought down a bill to abolish all the provinces. Was not this an instance of the divided mind of the Ministry. He believed that tho original intention of tho Government was not to apply Abolition to tho whole of the pro-' vmccs, but they departed from their promises because they wero influenced by the advice of their protector; he would not call him their friend, tho member for Timaru. (Hear, hear, and no, no.) Ho repeated it, and would say Jhat tho Government had been guilty of a gross breach of the pledges given by tho lato Premier. Ho promised to hold inviolate the compact regarding the land fund, and it was insulting to their com-, monsensoto casuislically say that they were not breaking that compact. Their true and only control over the land lay in tho Provincial Governments, and without thnt it was a delusion. (" No, no," from Ministers) Tbo measuro was hasty and imperfect. It was a breaoh of failh, and it also exhibited plainly that Ministers had not taken sufficient precaution to determine whether they had tho necessary power to deal with the question, Tho diversity of legal opinion, on the point mado it abundantly plain that there were doubts on the point, and that tho advice of tho Imperial law advisors should bavo been taken. Did not his Excellency or the Ministry satisfy doubts on the matter by consulting' the Crown lawyers on tho point? At least he understood tho Minister of Jusrice'to say so. (Mr Bowon: I said I never said so.) Mr 11 eeves: Then I don't know tho meaning of words. You either meant that or nothing, and now you tell us you meant nothing, • Cl'hiajbill was entiroly unworthy of tho occasion, Iho main object of the bill was to deprive tho people of tho power of electing their own Superintendents and Provincial Councillors. Were tho road boards and municipal powers conferred by the bill sufficient to till the gap? Certainly not. Tho Government merely displaced these to mako way for their nominated agents. (No, 'no.) Did they not appeal to the patriotism of the Superintendents, and beg ihem to sink themselves and tako office under the General Government ? It was therefore as clear as daylight that tho Government wished to secure the services of the Superintendents, and intonded them to retain ■ their' seats in that House, so that they might acquire tbo nine votes of their nominated agents. These with tho. three or four votes of the natiyo representatives, influenced by the Nativo Minister, would make a very pretty hand of trumps, and would place tho Houso and country at the mercy of Ministers. The chances of obtaining justice in tho Houso, if that bill passed, would be more or less remote. He said the measure was imperfect. The confession of Ministers admitted it was only a skeleton measure. They might have added, it was a Provincial interregnum, in which tho Governor would rule the country by Orders in Council. He could not givo lip what ho had for such an unsubstantial return. Tho bill did not appeal to tho intelligence of tho people, but to their pockets, their lowest instincts. But tho promises held out were shadowy, anil not certain to bo realised. What tho Assembly did one day it could undo tho next. The fulfilment of these promises depended entirely upon revenue, and if that did cnablo subsidies to be paid they would not be paid. Going by the Financial Statement, and that of public works, be could see they would soon have to rely upon tho customs revenue. That was very precarious, be« cause wages throughout the colony bid been increased fifty per cent,, but ttfafc was due entirely to tho largo expenditure of borrowed money. The customs revenue always depended upon the rates of wages, and when borrowed money came to an end tbo customs revenuo must at once decrease. Tbo Hon. tbo Minister for Public Works calculated largely upon tho proceeds of public works and railways, but there he differed from him. While admitting the policy of public works was tho wisest ever enunciated in the colony, ho felt wo must not look to them for revenuo purposes for tho first few years. Upon the initiation of tho mainlines in England, they paid largo dividends, but theso disappeared as branch railways were opened. If a few of our short lines paid well at first, their earnings would be swallowed up whon tho wholo nine hundred miles were opened. He would remind the Minister for Works that in a short limo tho interest on loans would be over one million of money, and that by tho time our railways wero. thoroughly completed and appointed we would have to pay ten or fifteen per cent, beyond the estimated present cost, and a further addition to the debt of the colony would be soon required. Look at tho matter bow they liked in'connection with this bill, and they must admit tbat it was an ill-concealed attempt to get possession of tho land fund. It arose out of the dire necessity of the colony, though Ministers ( denied that. Had they boldly admitted ( that iact at onco he might have been found supporting them, but , could not now. They were told, 1 thero had ■ been _ too much parish , business, but this bill would really give j them a great deal more parish business. , It would lead to nine-months session, and j to tho springing up of a class of pro- , fessional politicians instead of a more desirable class of men, who could afford to devoto their lime to their oountryi ,

•Ministers old them public opinion throughout the colony impelled tbem to pushonvilh the measure. Ho entirely denied that. The opinion was decided, buttbe balanco was in favour of postponing tho measure.. Tho Minister of Justice quoted to the House words of Mr Godley to show that when tho functions of the provinces passed away, the Government of the country, would assume a form like the United Kingdom, but the.substitute proposed was more after the system of prefects in France. The hon. member pointed to Superintendents as the embodiment of Cjesarism. When did that change of opinion take place? Not long ago tho hon. gentleman was about to contest tho Supcrintendency of Canterbury, but now he was the Brutus who was ready to plunge the dagger of sham patriotism into tho bosom of the first Cawar of Superintendent he met, (The hon. gentlemau hero contradicted what ho characterised as a most wanton and cruel attack upon a certain Superintendent made last night by the hon. member for Heathcote, and was repeatedly and loudly applauded from all parts of the House.) Tho hon. member also said that some Superintendents were emasculated, but he could tell the House that gentleman had made it widely known that he would act as Superintendent without salary if elected, but tho people would not hare him at his own price. In conclusion, he would support thesecond reading, and give all possible assistance in amending the bill in Committee, but ho would endeavour to prevent the bill passing finally through tho Houso.

Mr Curtis (Superintendent of Nelson) referred to the proposals of last year, and said tho people had tho whole year to consider the question. looking at tho dotails of tho bill, he felt bound to say it pretty fairly met the wants of tho case, and would mako him support the bill heartily. While free to admit the usefulness of road boards, he did not consider they were .capable of taking the placo of Provincial Governments, and his doubts upon that point were relieved when he saw that tho Government did not as yet intend to make them take tho place of provincialism. Referring to the the legal doubts raised as to tho power of the Assembly to abolish, ho disagreed with the action of the Government in not seeking the opinion of the Imperial law officers on the matter. Considering the clpso connection of tho Altorney-General with tho Government, they ought not to have accepted his opinion as final. Be gathered from the remarks of the hon. membor for Selwjn that anbther legal objection was raised, namely, that tho compact of 1856 prevented the .Assembly from ' abolishing the provinces, but ho would-answer the hon. gentleman with his own words. What tho Assembly did ono day it could undo tho next, and there was no doubt tho Assembly had most ample power to abolish if it chose to do so, notwithstanding the compact of 1856. His reasons for supporting tho bill were different from some speakers. He supported it in tho hope.of seeing one simple code of legislation to apply throughout the colony, and thus, avoid the conflict, and. confusion arising. out of such miscellaneous legislation as was seen in tho different provinces. It was wiso tho Government did not attempt to replace all that legislation at ono stroke with some attempted perfect system, for that would bo impossible. They could not devise a grand system to' put an _ ond to tho many evils of provincialism in one session. It would be tho work_ of many. Eeferring to the pressure which it was said tho provinces brought to bear upon tho Colonial Treasurer, tho hon. gentleman said that if the bill was passed it would render, such pressure impossible in future. How was it that tho, present Treasuror made his statement so clear and intelligible, compared with previous statements ? Was it that ho bad greater ability than previous Treasurers ? No, it was that, for tho first time this year's statement was not_ rendered incomprehensible by tho various provincial charges which previously had made nearly every member in the Houso despair of understanding the finances of the colony. In supporting tho bill, he did not do it with the idea that local administration would bo greatly improved. There was more centralising tendencies than that of the General Government. Constantly wero Provincial Governments called upon to interfere to protect the out-districts from the cen- , tralising tendencies of road boards. He 1 did not support tho bill because of tho greater advantages provided for outdistricts. Indeed, ho thought they should got even more than tho bill gave them, He did not beliero any great economy would bo effected by the change, because it might lead to long Parliaments, and consequent expenses, as in all iho other Australasian colonies. He did not approve of the localisation of the land fund, which simply meant that the districts which least needed it would get most. In that respect tho Timaru and Gladstone Act would bean entire-failure. 'lhat was a feature of the measure which ho hoped the Government would re-consider and amend. Objection, had been taken to. the provincial districts being re. tained, but that was a great advantage. It would be absolutely necessary to retain provincial boundaries for some time, bo as to enable tbem to charge interest upon provincial loans to the districts, and to the people who benefited by tbem. That was one strong reason for his supporting the bill. In the interests of tho province he camo from, ho felt bound to support that part of tho bill. To do away with tho provincial boundaries and spread the liabilities over the wholo colony would defraud Nelson out of half-a-million of money. It appeared to him that the voice of the peeple from all parts of tho colony favoured Abolition. (Hear, hear, and no, no.) He said it, though there might be • a diffenco of opinion as to what was to replace Provincial Government, but he did not attribute very much weight to theso public meetings. Each person looked' at them from his own point of view, and like the man who, when asked " Which aro tho intelligent people?" he said, " Those who cheer me;" and who are the mob ?" " Those who applaud you." Tho House rose at 5.15 p,m.

(fbom oub special cobbespondent.) Weihwoto.ji, Thursday 8 p.m. No new event, and the debate is beginning to become wearisome. Mr Stafford will speak to-night, and great interest is felt respecting his speech. After him Mr Fitzherbert, and then tho interest of the debate will be gono. There was some talk to-day about Ministess attempting to force a division after Mr Stafford's speech. At half-past seven the gallories were crowded, and tho members were watched as the audience watches the formers coming into a concert room. The great debate was resumed by Mr Ward, in a maiden speech. He was received with cheers, and spoke well. 8.36 p.m. Mr Stafford has just commenced his great speech, House is crammed.