NEW PLYMOUTH HARBOUR LOAN BILL.

Taranaki Herald, Volume XXXV, Issue 7119, 17 July 1886, Page 1 (Supplement)

NEW PLYMOUTH HARBOUR LOAN BILL.

DEBATE ON SECOND READING IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Bth JULY, 1886.

SUPPLEMENT TO THE BUDGET AND TAEANAKI WEEKLY HERALD, NEW PLYMOUTH, SATURDAY, JULY 17, 1886.

INTERRUPTED DEBATE

Mr. SUTTER said, as tho option whether monoy should be raised or not was left entirely to tho ratepayers, who would bo responsible for it, ho thought thoy should bo allowed the opportunity of borrowing tho money and continuing tho works if thty thought right to do ao. He did not at all agico with stopping a Bill of this kind. A largo sum of money had been spent already on tho harbour works, tho full benefit of which could not be obtained unless afuither sum was expended, and he thought tho House should allow tho money to be raised if the ratepayers thought fit, and to go on with tho works.

Mr. PEACOCK thought the House ought not to take it for granted that Bills of this character ought to be passed simply because the parties interested would have an opportunity of coming to a decision whether a loan should be raised or not. It must not be forgotten that thero was one special circumstance in this case. Tho fact that interest on the loan already raised had hitheito been paid out of the 23 per cent, of tho Land Fund received by the Harbour Board might cause the people in the district to bo less impressed on the question of interest on what was borrowed than they otherwise would be. But the income from the Land Fund must soon cease, and tho interest would then have to come from rating; but that fact might be ignored by many when they wero voting as to whether an additional loan should be raised or not. The House shouUl give considerable weight to the fact: that the whole burden of taxation "for the did loan and this proposed new one, if it' was raised, would be very great. It would mean a rate of some Gs. in the pound on the property in the rating district. That was a matter worthy of grave consideration on the part of the House before the Bill was passed ; and, if it wero not thrown out on the second reading, it would, at all events, require considerable amendment in Committee. Amendment to leave out tho word " now," with a view to putting in tho words " this day six months," negatived. On the, question, That the Bill be now read a second time, Mr. BRYCE said he would like to say a few words on this subject — and, indeed, if it wero not that it would be interfeiing in a quarrel between friends, he should say a good many words. It appeared to him that, in spite of all that had been said, this was really a matter of colonial concern, as tho whole of these locxl-borrowing Bills were, and was not merely a matter of local concern only, as some honourable gentlemen had said. It appeared to him it was of colonial concern in this way : that, if any of the bodies which had been authorized by the colony to borrow money failed in the payment of interest, it would not then he a matter of local concern only, but ib would inflict injury on the colony — on the colony's reputation, at all events, and so be probably a material injury. Now, he conceived that in a case of that kind the burden of proof did lie upon the promoters of the Bill, and they ought to bo able to give very good and conclusive proof indeed that it would be judicious to raise the loan, and that the money would bo judiciously expended, before they could expect the House to authorize the borrowing power. For his part, he did not think that that had been at all made out, for they found that the trade of that part of the colony was only small — it certainly could not be considered a very large trade; and, on tho other hand, it was perfectly evident that in the immediate vicinity of the place where it was proposed to spend this money there were two very fair harbours indeed, and it did seem that the harbour accommodation already existing for the district ■was quite sufficient for the present trade and even for the prospective trade of the next few years. Ultimately, of course, a very large trade might grow up, needing very extensive harbour accommodation ; but that was a time in the distant future, he should say, and might very well be left for a considerable period before it was contemplated by tho House with a view to providing for such increased harbour accommodation. Now, he was not going to interfere very much between his fiiends who wero upon opposite sides in this case, but it did appear to him that there were things connected with this Bill which were not entirely satisfactory. He referred particularly to the arguments used by the honourable member for Egmont, whose reasoning, he apprehended, was not at all sound. That honourable gentleman spoke very temperately indeed, but his arguments were not logical in every respect. For example, tho honourable gentleman said that the Waimato Plains were included in the rating district, and that tho Borough of Hawera was not ; but the reasons ho gave in each case for this were of the most opposite description possible. Tho honourable gentleman said, indeed, that tho Waimate Plains had already been heavily rated, and therefore if it was now left free it might be regarded as, upon the whole, a differential rate, which would be fair to that place. But as to Hawera his reason was an opposite one. It was that no rate had ever been imposed there, and therefore that no rate should be imposed.

Mr. SAMUEL.— It is in a different harbour district.

Mr. BRYCE said tho honourable gentleman knew very well that the harbour at New Plymouth was more accessible to the people of Hawera than it was to the people on the Waimate Plains. It appeared to him that one part of tho reasoning of the honourable member for Egmont destroyed the other. There was another thing about the boundaries of tho rating district which did not appear to him to be very just. The Waitara River, as had been said, was a very decent little harbour; and he had no doubt that tho people in its vicinity and for a considerable distance around, wishing to promote the trade there, would like to spend money on. the improvement of tho Waitara Harbour. Now, did it not strike honourable members that it was a, somewhat cruel thing that the promoters of the harbour at New Plymouth, which might be said to bo a rival harbour to that at Waitara, should impose a rate on tho people of the Waitara district for tho purpose of making a harbour which was a rival to their own ? That appeared to him to be, on the face of it, unjust. Why, even in their proceedings with respect to the Harbour of Wanganui, when a part of tho District of Uangitikei was taken into the rating district, the locality around tho mouth of the Rangitikci River was excluded, in case tho people there might want to improve their own port. In that case ho believed they wero far moro just than the people of New Plymouth proposed to be by this Bill ; and ho thought the honourablo member for New Plymouth, in his reply, could scarcely fail to admit that it would be unjust to tax tho people in the Waitara district for the purpose of improving the harbour at New Plymouth — a thing of which the Waitara people would have very good reason to complain. When the district grew richer, moro thickly populated, and the trade becamo larger New Plymouth might fairly ask for increased harbour accommodation ; but, in tho mean-

time, looking so far ahead and imposing such burdens on a district which was poor now would be felt as very oppressive indeed. There was one curious circumstance about all these Bills — he did not know if honourable members had remarked it. It was invariably found that tho towns in tho immediate vicinity of the proposed harbour works wero in favour of the loan and consequent rato, whereas the outlying districts might probably be against it. He wondered why that was. Was it because of tho superior intelligence of the people in the towns, or was it because they had a more immediate interest in tho mere expenditure of money ? He apprehended that the last reason, although perhaps it was not the solo reason, was, at all events, not without weight in depressed times. That might be a moving reason in respect of these townships or cities, and, at the same time, it might not bo a good reason from a colonial point of view ; because, although particular townships might think their immediate or future interests wero going to bo promoted by this expenditure of money, he apprehended that that would by no moans certainly be the case. He would appeal to tho history of colonial towns arid institutions to show that it was not the case. If they took the Town of New Plymouth alone, and calculated the expenditure of public money which had taken place in it since ISGO, he was sure they would find the amount very large indeed ; and yet, in spito of that expenditure, it was the only borough in New Zealand that showed a falling-off in its population. He might also, as another instance, give Canteibury. Canterbury, in respect to expenditure of public money, to the large sums deri\ed from land, and to tho private borrowing of the people, had a moro enormous expenditure of money unearned in the district within its boundaries than probably any other part of the colony. Yet they now found that the depression was more marked there than anywhere else, and tho sums required in charitable aid were almost fabulous. Thero must be something that militated against the fulfilment of the impression that expenditure of money which undoubtedly produced a little temporary business was going to have any permanent effect. He believed that it would ha\e no such effect, and therefore they were not light in taking the impression ho had refeired to as their guide, but must regard the matter from a wider and more colonial aspect. His belief was that it would be very much better for tho people who asked for these works if they were postponed till a very much later period. Mr. TURNBULL, while agreeing with a very great deal of what had fallen from the honourable member who had just sat down in reference to loans to private bodies, said he disagreed entirely with him on another point. He thought the Government should set their face steadily against now works being undertaken, or large sums of money boirowed for thorn, because, looking at the fact that these Harbour Boards, Road Boards, and so on had borrowed nearly to the extent of seven millions, it became a serious matter for consideration if tho colony could afford to send so much money away as interest upon public debts and private debts. Thero was, however, this peculiarity about this case : that if they refused the Bill they would bring about the very evil the honourable member for Waitotara had pointed out. There had been a largo expenditure upon this work for some years past, and if tho House refused to grant power to raise more money for it the people would have a very proper claim against the country, and would be right in throwing the work up. It was an absolute necessity that the work should be carried on, and, if assistance were not given, as a matter of course tho whole thing would bu thrown upon the Government. Against any new work that was brought before the House he would vote, as he was convinced that the extension of the borrowing powers would tend greatly to injure tho country ; but ho would support this Bill, because he thought it was a necessity that they should finish the work. It would remain with the electors to say whether the loan should be raised or not, and he thought they should bo allowed, if they desired to do so, to shoot an arrow in order to find what had gone before, and that they must do that if they meant to make the port a success. He would support the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. G. F. RICHARDSON had listened with interest to tho remarks which had fallen from the honourable member for Timaru, for it appeared that he had changed his opinion sinco last session, when lie biought in a Bill to borrow £100,000 for local works. With regard to the Bill, there wero one or two matters ho desired to point out. Since the Bill had been considered by the Local Bills Committee ten petitions had been received, signed by 43d people, objecting to the Bill proceeding unless Hawera and Waimate were included. As those petitions had been received subsequently to the report they could not be considered by the Committee. It seemed to him also that some misconception was possible owing to the wording of tho report. lie would point out that tho Committee Aid not recommend tho amended schodule as to bo finally agreed to, but that a largo area of land on the head - waters of the Wanganui River, bounded by the Noith Island Main Trunk Railway, and not at all likely to be served by the New Plymouth Harbour should be excluded. Tho Committee did not express any opinion on tho matter as to whether Hawera and the Waimato Plains should bo included, and he wished to gi% r o his opinion upon that point. It seemed to him that if the land round Waitara — which was served, for local requirements, by tho Waitara Harbour — was to bo included, as it was included, there could be no reason for excluding Hawera and tho land round Waimate. He was disposed to think that if in Committee that excluded district wero included in tho rating area, and tho recommendation of the Committee with regard to tho interest on the new loan if raised being paid directly by special rato wore given effect to, tho worst points of this mcasuro would be removed, and proper safeguards introduced to prevent the loan being rashly raised. Looking at tho very large amount which had been spent on this work, it became a question of deciding between caution and expediency. Ho was not fully satisfied himself that if this loan Wero raised it would be sufficient to givo effect to tho wishes of those who wanted to sec the harbour made fit for largo vessels. According to tho evidence there appeared to be a doubt as to whether, if the works wero further extended as proposed, dredging would not be required, and the loan, ho understood, did not provide for dredging.

Mr. SAMUEL said that was included,

Mr. G. F. RICHARDSON said lie was not awaro that it had boon taken into consideration. Ho hoped tho amendments he had suggested would bo made in Committee, and ho would, in that belief, vote for the second reading of the Bill.

Mr. MONTGOMERY agreed with the honouro.l)le member for Waitofcara tUafc fclicso excessive loans for harbours might become a charge upon the revenue of the colony somo day or other, and he thought it obvious that they should bo careful before sanctioning an additional loan for this harbour. It was imagined that the expenditure of a very large amount of money would make that harbour a fit harbour for the loading and unloading of vessels of considerable sizo ; but it now turned out that vessels could not load and unload from the pier as was expected, and that they would have to make another wharf. He thought tho honourable member for Taranaki raado out a very strong case against this loan, and that they should bo extremely careful when, in Committee upon it; and, if they did not expect the colony to boar it they must include a vary, considerable portion of land by Hawera, such as had been suggested by tho honouvablo member for Mataura. What he rose to say had reference to the remarks of the honourable member for Waitotara regarding Canterbury. The lionoumblo gentleman said they required a great deal of charitable aid down there, and ho drew the infeience that there had been very large loans expended down there and in Taranaki, and that that was the cause of their impecunious position now. In the first place, the loans expended in Canterbury had been very small indeed — very, very small when population was considered, compared with what had been expended from Wanganui to New Plymouth, where the railways had cost more than £1,300,000, and were paying only 12s. lOd. per cent, per annum. The railways from Hurunui to Bluff, including the Canterbury ones— and as he thought his Otago friends would admit that the railways paid as well in Canterbury as in Otago and so would not draw invidious distinctions — those lailwajs paid at tho rato of £3 os. per cent. That was the difference. In Canterbury the}' had spent a great deal of money without placing any chaigc on tho colony, whereas tho money expended between Wanganui and New Plymouth had all been a heavy annual charge on tho colon}'. The honourable gentleman referred to tho largo amount of land revenue that had been expended in Canterbury, but he would ask who had found that ? The land revenue thero was large because thcio was an implied condition made with the purchasers of land that half tho proceeds at least should go to making roads and bridges, school- buildings, and other public works in tha district, which never could have been made except out of tho proceeds of tho lands, or out of borrowed money. The people of tho Taranaki Distuct had these things made out of borrowed money ; but the people of Canterbury contributed so much more than they otherwise would have had to pay for the land in order to carry out these works. If they had chosen they could ha\o made the price of tho land at 10s. an acre, and then taxed themselves for the other purposes ; but they preferred to pay tho fiist cost of £2 per acre and upwaids, for land. With respect to charitable aid, it was possible that tho people of Canterbury had contributed not lavishly but fairly to charity, because they felt that persons in needy chcunistances should have something more than the bare necessaries, for keeping soul and body together. Then, thero was one other thing which must bo remembered, and that was that, in consequence of tho high price of land in that district, there had not been much settlement lately. People had to loa\o ib and go to other places. What with the restrictions put upon tho land, tho reserves for tho East and West Coast Railway, and the high price of land outside that area, there was no settlement ; and the consequence was that Canterbury had to stand still, and when a country was standing still in that respect it might be said to be retrograding when compared with other districts where settlement was progressing. Consequently, there were more needy persons in that district than there were in other places where settlement was going on and where employment could be obtained. Of course tho people there had speculated too highly, and had given away at least a million of money too much in the purchase of land that was not ncaily worth tho money. They bought tussock and other inferior land, and then broke it up expecting to got crops from it, when it would have paid them better to have done nothing more than look at it. But what had become of the proceeds of the sale of that land? To tho extent of half a million of money it had come to Wellington and gone into the public chest. It had not, therefore, been the expenditure of public money in Canterbury which had brought about a state of abnormal prosperity, resulting, afterwaids, in depression. For many yeais past the people thero had not had a fair share of the borrowed money, for which they had been paying interest.

Mr. BRYCE might explain that tho honourable gentleman had slightly, though not altogether, misapprehended him. He had merely taken the case of Canterbury as an illustration of the very broad argument ho had been using. He had argued that, when they saw atNcwPlymouth and elsewhere a lavish expenditure of money — whether public money, or from Land Fund, or from mortgages, or from money borrowed from foreign countries — going on for a term of years, they must expect to see a period of depression aftei wards. He gave Canterbury as an illustration, and if they considered the amounts of money of these various sorts which had been expended thero honourable members would see that they amounted to a very large sum. He was not speaking merely of public money, but also of that derived from the salo of lands, which, ho agreed with the honourable gentleman, had been sold at too high a price. Still, very valuable lands had been sold there, and the money had been expended in the district, lie was also awaro that there were a large amount of mortgages there, which showed that much money had been brought in fiom other countries.

Mr. MONTGOMERY had not thought that the honourable gentleman wished to depreciate Canterbury, but that his remarks might bu so construed by other persons.

Mr. ROLLESTOX said this Bill was one on which, if he thought it was ever admissible to abstain from voting, he would like not to -\ofcc ; because there were honourable gentlemen who held strong opinions both for and against it with whoso opinions, as a rule, he was in harmony; but of cour.se, on this occasion, it was impossible for him to be in harmony with both. Ho would therefore say a few words in relation to tho vote ho would give. That vote would bo against tho second reading of the Bill. Ho had always held that tho borrowing for those harbours was a matter of colonial concern. This sectional borrowing was, in a sense, very much colonial borrowing — at any rate, from tho lenders' point of view; and of course tho sum of tho sectional borrowing was colonial indebtedness. Whether it was to continuo to bo charged and paid fictionally or not was a question which had not yet arisen ; but if it over aroso ho thought tho respon-

sibility of the colony would be maintained in the intcicst of tho lender. The colony could not get out of that responsibility. It ought not, and he was sure it would not. Therefore in all ho said on these harbour works he thoioughly believed that the colony was responsible, and that they were not more matters of local concern. In considering this question the first point was, was there a fair prospect of the district, from its own resources, being able to meet tho interest on tho money borrowed or was there not ? He held that at present the colony was not entitled to increase its indebtedness, and his vote would always be given, now and at any time, against increasing that indebtedness when there was no security by the parties borrowing that they could, out of their own resources or out of the work they were going to construct, meet the interest. He did not think that this district could bear further rating at the present time, and ho thought the New Plymouth and Taraoiaki people ought for the present to hold their hands, because the} - would make this harbour, not only in a remote sense a colonial i isk, but that it was to bo immediately constructed out of moneys to be provided by tho colony. It had been said in that House rather sharply a j-ear or two ago that, whatever else Taranaki produced, it produced men who watched the interests of that district as well as any men could do. In this harbour question the Taranaki people had seen their way more clearly than the rest of tho colony had seen it. At the time the original Harbour Board Bill was passed, and a lien was given over tho Crown lands, it was never for a moment contemplated that the sales of the Ciown lands on the Waimate Plains would go in aid of tho harbour, and in that the people of the district had gained —ho did not say unfairly — advantages which wero never contemplated at the time. Therefore he did not think they could complain of the colony if it withheld further aid just now, as it had given so much money in the past towards this harbour. It was therefore time that they should hold their hands in respect to this work, and wait for a moro convenient time for proceeding with it. Then, there was another point, which he did not think honourable members clearly appreciated, and that was that this was more a colonial work, naturally and necessarily, than any other harbour-work going on, in this respect — that under the Crown and Native Lands Rating Act the colony would be giving to tho people of the distiict the interest on tho loan to a large extent. He did not know whether members generally appreciated how largely and immediately the payment of interest for this loan would come out of tho pocket of tho colony, and not out of the pocket of tho district. He did not suppose for a moment that the honourable member in charge of tho Bill had lost sight of tho fact, or that the Taranaki people had done so ; but, from the apathy displayed by honourable gentlemen in tho House, it appeared to him that they did not appreciate tho fact. It was a matter of great concern, because it invol\cd a laigc chaige on the public chest, and therefore they should pause before they went further in the matter.

Mr. SAMUEL regretted that it would be necessary for him to take up more of the time of the House than otherwiso he would have done, but he must answer some of the speeches made, and chiefly those of the honourable member for Taranaki and the honourable member for Motueka, especially when ho heard an honourable gentleman like the honourable member for Akaroa say that tho speech of the honourable member for Taranaki was conclusive against the Bill, lie did thmk the honourable gentleman had too much astuteness and experience of the wild statements made in tho House to take all the honouiable member for Taranaki talked for gospel, and not sec how incorrect a gieat many of his statements could be shown to be. The honourable member for Taianaki prefaced his speech by refening in the most deliberate and lengthy manner to past boirowing — to his inability in the past to prevent the passage of tho Bill under which the former loan was raised. He unearthed tho skeleton of the past, and calmly fought his battles over again, and took ample advantage of the oppoitunity afforded to him to make statements which he should have known were nob correct. The first statement of the honourable) gentleman that he must draw attention and take exception to was, that tho one-shilling rate authorized by the Ace of 1877 was now virtually a ono-and-throcpenny rato. He apparently made that to appear to his own satisfaction, but, he (Mr. Samuel) ventured to say, not to the satisfaction of any other member of the House. Ho endeavoured to argue that under tho Rating Act of 18S2 it becamo a one-and-threcpenny rato, notwithstanding that the Act of 1577 limited it specially to a oneshilling rato. And his reason was that now it was only the existing valuations that could bo taken ; but, although tho present valuations were to be taken, and might be used for levying a rate equal to Is. 3d., did it not occur to the honourable gentleman that it was quite possible, on the present valuation, to calculate a oncbhilling rate just as well as a ono-and-thrcc-penny rate? The valuation and tho amount of the late had no relation to one another, and ho could not understand how the honourable gentleman could have arrived at so illogical and untenable a conclusion. Ho said that Sir John Coodo estimated that tho harbour works would cost£7do,ooo, and yet that this Bill was in favour of borrowing £00,000, for which the promoters of tho Bill said tho harbour works could bo completed. The honourable gentleman had wilfully blinded himself to the evidence given in his own hearing in the Local Bills Committee. lie apparently had not taken tho trouble to look at Sir John Coode's plans. If ho had done so ho would have scon that it was to take £750,000 to make New Plymouth a harbour of refuge. It should be rather a matter of congratulation that, although the promoters of tho Bill admitted that £00,000 was all that they could afford for a long time to come, they could still sketch out a far greater, more important, and moro expensivo work, which, in the far future, would undoubtedly be constructed ; but that, in order to prevent the present expenditure from being comparatively unproductive, and mako it valuable in the immediate present, £00,000 was now required for the purpose of utilizing and making more useful the £'200,000 which had been already expended. This was necessary for tho purpose of carrying out this work to a paying point, and to afford shelter for such boats as tho " Wakatipu," " Manapouri," "To Anau," and others of a liko sizo at all states of the tide and in all weathers. But it was not for tho purpose of carrying out to tho full Sir John Coode's plans or of making a harbour of refuge capable of containing a fleet that tho now loan was now required, though he had little doubt that in the future such a harbour would bo completed, and would bo a truo harbour of refuge. On Thursday last, while tho honourable member for Taranaki was stating his inaccuracies to the House, that

breakwater was being used as a harbour of refuge. A vessel had taken refuge there, which might otherwiso have been wrecked. She remained there for several days, and was Ahere during the early part of this week, taking refuge from the gale. Then, the honourable gentleman denied — and he was very fond of denials — that the freight had been reduced by the breakwater. He (Mr. Samuel) had not time now to go through all the particular articles on which it had been reduced. Before the 'breakwater was constructed the freight on coal from Greymouth was from £1 Is. to £1 3s. Now it was 11s. The freight from Timaru to Waitara at the present time was 17s. Gd ; to New Plymouth breakwater, 10s. So it was with numerous other articles. The honourable gentleman had obtained his information from a most unreliable source, and he evidently wished to behove what ho heard. Acting on this unreliable information, the honourable gentleman ventured to say that the reduction of freight which had taken place was pure lomanee. Then the honourable gentlemen drew attention to the small exports and imports, and stated, with truth, that last year tho amount was only 10,000 tons ; but the honourable gentleman carefully concealed from the House the very large increase which had taken place duiing the last five months, just as he concealed the very large increase of income derived from the breakwater during the last five months. He had ignored the fact that the circumstances were wholly changed since the breakwater was fuithor extended, and sinco the Government railway was running on to the breakwater. It was quite true that last year the exports and imports amounted to 10,000 tons, but during the first five months of this year the tonnage was 6,254 tons, which would give 15,009 tons for the year — considerably more than the Waitara, and an advance of something over SO per cent, upon last year. Surely these figures showed an increase of trade. This information was quite open to tho honourable member for Taranaki, and he might have obtained it from the Local Bills Committee when he was before it. lie (Mr. Samuel) had nothing to say against the Waitara River. It had been a very valuable one. It was a great misfortune that it was not capable of being improved ; but there were millions of tons of sand there, to pre\ent any successful improvement of that river, seeing that ib had no current and did not carry a large body of water as did the Wanganui River. Therefore it was hopeless, e\en with an expenditure of £100,000, to make it fit for such vessels oven as the "Hawea." and the "Penguin," and the Colonial Marine Engineer gave evidence to that effect. But the honourable gentleman made himself the medium of more incorrect statements. One was so wide of the truth and so unreasonable that he could not imagine how the honourable gentleman had credulity enough to believe it or boldness enough to repeat it to the House. It was, that a vessel named tho " Clansman " could do all the trade of Taranaki with Sydney. That statement was intended to mako honourable members believe that such a vessel as would be fit for the trade could carry on a trade between Waitara and Sydney. The certificate which had been read was signed by the masters of two small vessels which traded between Onchunga and Waitara, and those who did not know this might think that tho certificate was given by competent authorities. Those two persons were interested in Waitara, and aided those who wanted to prevent trade passing from Waitara to New Plymouth ; but at the very time the honourable gentleman was making that statement to tho House the " Gairloch," which had been chartered to take a quantity of butter which was shut out from the " Wakatipu " to Auckland, in order to catch the Sydney steamer thero, was detained at Waitara for three days, and when tho butter got to Auckland it was too lato for tho Sydney steamer. Ho had a telegram from one of tho principal shippers at New Plymouth stating that, and ho would read it to the House. It was as follows : "Wo engaged ' Gairloch ' last Saturday to lake cargo Auckland to catch Sydney steamer. Could noc leave Waitara for want of water until Tuesday, so lost Sydney steamer." The House would see that the' little " Gairloch" was detained at Waitara, and yat the master of the " Gairloch " stated that tho "Clansman," which was a much larger vessel, would bo able to trade direct between Waitara and Sydney. He (Mr. Samuel) ventured to say that tho expenditure of borrowed money at Waitaia had done little or no good to the river. It was truo that certain individuals would givo evidence to the contrary effect. 110 took the liberty to disbelieve their evidence, just as the honourable member for Taranaki had not hesitated to disbelieve the evidence given by more reliable men that vessels which could go into Waitara years ago could not as much as look at it now — and that every old settler knew perfectly well. With regard to the butter export, tho honourabre members for Taranaki and Motueka both referred to the subject. Tho speech of tho honourable member for Motueka was characterized by such levity that it was unnecessary to devote much time to it. Now, duiing last year over seventy-one thousand pounds' worth of butter had been exported from Taranaki. If it had gone diicct to Australia there would thereby have been a saving of Id. per pound, and that would amount in a year to £9,000 — three times the amount of interest required to be paid on this loan. When the honourablo gentleman talked of butter being sold on an average of sd. a pound he was misleading the House. What price did tho honourablo member for Taranaki get for his own butter ? Colonel TRIMBLE.— I told the House. Mr. SAMUEL said tho honourable gentleman had told tho Houso after tho manner in which he had framed his speech — he gave tho Houso the impression that fivepenco a pound was tho ordinary price of butter at Taranaki. That was the impression which he thought tho honourable gentleman had given tho House. 110 hoped it was unintentional, but it was certainly erroneous. Then, the honourable gentleman stated that Mr. Macgregor who superintended tho Oamaru works had been appointed in consequenco of somo report which nobody had heard of. He (Mr. Samuel) contradicted that statement, and then the honourable gentleman said that he did not know as much about Taranaki harbour matters as the honourablo gentleman did. Tho honourable gentleman said " Hear, hear." That was again characteristic of tho honourablo gentleman's carelessness about ascertaining the truth, and of making an incorrect statement whenever he had an oppoitunity to do so. It was he himself (Mr. Samuel) who recommended Mr. Macgregor, at tho special recommendation of several members of the Houso, notably that of tho honourable member for Port Chalmers. He was down hero and found whom ho behoved was tho best man, on tho authority of several of tho most competent judges in tho House. 110 recommended him to the Board ; and the Board, after due deliberation, appointed him. And yet tho

honourable gentleman undertook to contradict him, and to persist in his contradiction ! With regard to the liabilities and assets, the honourable gentleman was equally unreliable and noticeable too, ho regretted to say, for want of candour. He first gave particulars of the revenue for last year. lie told the House that £443 represented the receipts from wharfage and dues. Ho had taken good care not to state what the revenue had been for the first five months of the present year. The revenue for the first five months of this year showed no less than GO per cent, increase on that of 18S5. It showed, according to the evidence of the Chairman, no less than £1,420, which, computed for the year, would make, instead of, as last year, £113, £3,422 for the current year, being, as he had said, more than 60 per cent, increase upon the revenue of last year. Then, from that was to be deducted £900 for working expenses — considerably reduced by the Railway Department now paying a large proportion. — lo.uing about £2,500 net revenue. And it must be noted that they were not taking this into account that, although the revenue had increased so largely in the immediate past, they were making no allowance for the increase of the future. The honourable gentleman was in possession of all this information, but he took good care to conceal it from the House. Then, with regard to tho endowment's, it was quite true that they 3 T ielded only about £200 at the present time, but was it conceivable that they were only going to bring in a few hundreds in future ? The}' were now valued at over £IG,OOO, and would bring in as many thousands as they now brought in hundreds before many years. The honourable gentleman also said that the Land Fund would be eaten up in two years. There was £33,000. The honouiable gentleman said that £14,000 a year would be required for the interest on the first loan ; but he entirely ignored the fact that there was 14,500 a year of land revenue coming in in each year. That being so, how could the £33,000 be swallowed up in two years ? The honourable gentleman had not taken that care in his figures and assertions which might be expected from him. Then, the honourable gentleman said that there was sure to be a deficiency after levying tho rate for the loan which had already been raised; but, if so, there was all the more reason for the most careful consideration on the part of the House, and on the part of the ratepayers, of whom he was one — and he ventured to say that his interest as a ratepayer was greater than that of many of those persons who were engaged in opposing this Bill — with a view to seeing whether something could not bo done to increase the value of the harbour, and of the rateable property, and so lessen the amount of the rate which might be required and avoid the deficiency. Then, nothing seemed to have been allowed by the honourable gentleman for the natural increase in the value of rateable property in the district. The honourable gentleman seemed to think that the value of property would remain stationary, but the House should bear in mind that Taranaki was mainly a bush district, and that as every acre was cleared tho value of the land was quadrupled, and that, as a fact, thousands of acres were being cleared and grassed. The ordinary increase in value during the next few yeari must therefore be very considerable, and, of coulsc, as the value of the land increased, the amount of the rate must decrease. If this work were earned out properly the amount of the rates in the district, instead of being increased, would, he believed, be very considerably reduced, by the increased value which would bo given to property. He found that he would have to cut his remarks short, as honourable members kept reminding him of other business on the Order Paper. Ho had a great deal more that he should like to say, and did he not feel that he should be imposing on the good-n.ituio of the House he should like to reply at much greater length to the honourable member for Tavanaki and show how nearly every one of his statements were inaccurate, and how he had been primed with false information by interested parties, one or two of whom owned immense tracts of land — men such as those referred to by tho honourable member for Motueka as the friends of his jouth, one of whom owned something like fifty thousand acres of land, and .vho ought, for the good of the colony, to bo speedily rated, so that their land might bo cut up and settled, and made profitable to tho country. The honourable member had been primed with inaccurate information by these people, and he (Mr. Samuel) had the greatest difficulty in restraining himself from going through every assertion to show that his statements were mistaken and unreliable ; but he felt that other honourable members were anxious to get their local Bills before the House, and ho would content himself with expressing the hope that the House would give the people of this district the right of deciding whether or not they shall rate themselves for the extension of the work, if they consider it desirable to do so. Tho House divided on the question, "That the Bill be read a second time." Ayes, 39. Ballance Kcrr Richardson, (>. 8.-Bradshaw Lanco Ross Brown Larnach Russell Cowan Lcvcstam Smith Duncan Mackenzie, M. Steward, W. J . Garrick McKenzic, J. Stewart, W. IX Gore Newman Stout Graco O'Conor Sutter Guinness Parata Taylor Hatch Pearson Tolc. Hislop Rceso Tellers. Hobbs Reid Bovan Ivess Richardson, B. Samuel. Joyco Nons, 13. Bruco Macandrew Thomson, J. \V. Bvyco Montgomery Buchanan Moss Tellers. Conolly Ormond Rollcston Hursthouso Thompson, T. Trimble. Paiks. For. Against. Atkinson Macar'thur Beetham Lake Holmes Hirst, 11. Pyko Johnston Turnbull Peacock Walker Pulton Wilson. Daigaville. Majority for, 2G. Bill read a second time. Mr. BUCHANAN explained that he had boon paired in error; but, having been paired, and having remained in the House, he had b^cn compelled to vote on the opposite side to that on which he had intended to vote.