PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Taranaki Herald, Volume XVI, Issue 821, 18 April 1868, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

TUESDAY, APRIL 14, 1868. The Speaker took the chair afc 2 p.m. Members present — Messrs. Browu, Elliot, Gledhill, Kelly, Kyngdon, Lawrence, Upjohn and Yeale. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. PETITION. Mr. Kyngdon presented a petition from the Ministers of Religion in New Plymouth, which was ordered to be received and read. To the Provincial Council of New Plymouth. The memorial of the Ministers of Religion in New Plymouth showeth, — That they view with much dissatisfaction clause 33 of the Education Bill now brought before the Counoil, which provides " That the course of instrnotion given in schools during tho regular school hours, Bhall bo secular only." Because it appears to them to be the evident intention of tho framers of the Bill to refuse such aid as has been hitherto granted to schools established by religious bodies or others, in which religion is regarded as a necessary part of education. Now as it is tho avowed object of the Council to promote as far as possible tho cause of secular education, it would seem to be tho wisest course to extend help to all, irrespective of their religions tenets, who are eng.iged in instructing youth, provided that they are willing to submit to Government inspection as to the quality of the secnlar instruction provided for the scholars. And in proof that schools established by religious bodies are likely to deserve well of the Province in this respect, they would quote tho remark made by the School Inspector in his published report, " that tho faults [existing in schools generally] are not nearly so apparent in the schools which are regularly and frequently visited by persons interested in their well-being." It appears then to your memorialists that the Council would most effectually promote tho courso of general education — not by countenancing one class of schools only — and thereby damaging others not so favoured, but by assisting all who naturally feel a lively interest in the cause. Aud as regards schools intended to be established nnder tho provisions of the Bill, your memorialists would earnestly deprecate the exclusion of religious instruction from the ordinary school -teaohing. Doubtless the exclusion clause was mainly introduced from apprehension of sectarian jealousies and disputes, but they are not of opinion that any serious differences are likely to ariso from permitting ministers, or school-masters, to impart religions instruction during school hours. Aud in case of any unseemly disputes and differences occuring, an appeal to the Board would easily settle them. Such a course of action would appear to your memorialists far preferable to the exclusion of religions instruction from schools established in a community consisting almost wholly of professing Christians. They wonld therefore respectfully urge upon your Council, the advisability of expunging clause 33 from a Bill in most respects apparently very beneficial, and your memorialists will ever pray. — (Signed.) Henry Govett, Henry H. Brown, John Whitely, Charles Waters, William J. Watkins, Robert F. MaoNicol. MESSAGE. A Message was received from his Honor the Superintendent, enclosing a Bill entitled " The Fnrze Ordinance, 18G8." The PaoviNciAT, Secretary moved that tho 8.1 l be read a first time, and that the second reading stand the first order of the day next sitting day. Mr. Elliot seconded the motion, which was agreed to. HESIONATION OP A MEMBER OF THE EXECUTIVE. The Provincial Secretary announced that Mr. Elliot had rosigned his seat as a member of the Executive Council. THE TAUANAKI LIGHTER COMPANY. The Provincial Secretary moved — " That this Conncil approves of the lighterage of the Port of New Plymouth being conducted on and after the 2nd June 1863, on tho following conditions :—: — 1. That the exclusive right for two years to nso the boatsheds, onthaul buoy, and the beach at present in the occupation of tho Taranaki Lighter Company, be submitted to public competition at auction, subject to the following conditions :—: — (a) That tho purchaser of the above rights will be required to lake over all the plant of the Taranaki Lighter Company, which the Government is bonnd to take, ,and at tho same price. (b) That tho purchaser shall bo required to enter into a bond to perform certain services for the Provincial Government which are now being performed by tho Taranaki Lighter Company, viz., tho Harbour, Pilot, and Customs service. 2. Tnat lighterage may bo carried on by other persons on other portions of the bea h, on similar conditions to those pnblished in tho Provincial Government Gazette No. 15 18fi7> wilh the exception of altering tho amount of license fee to £5 per annum, on each boat, and abolishing the conditions with regard to wharf charges." And proceeded to say that Borne time since a select Committee appointed by the Council had reported on this question. The Government had taken action on that report, and adopted the views of that Committee, which had resulted in the notice of motion now before them. With regard to the service, ho thought it advisable in the first place to pub it np to competition at auction, only it was necessary for the Government to bee that the service was performed with efficiency. The Government had two questions to consider — first the interest of the public, anil secondly the interests of the Government financially. The harbour expenditure was £350 per annum during the last year or so without contingent expenses, but although a saring had "been effected in former years, he believed it could still be further reduced by selling these rights and priviliges. If ie was put up at auction, subject to the terms the Government proposed, they wonld then ascertain whether they wonld have to receive or give money for its performances. If the Government got the usual services performed such as postal, customs, &c, on the conditions stated in the resolution — the department would be only at the expense of maintaining a harbour-master, and signal man, which would be a great saving. Tho speaker then reviewed the subject, whether it would be better to sell the plant to parties who intend to carry it on , or let it to them, and concluding by stating that in his reply he would try to meet any objection that might be raised, and express his views on the discussion that had taken place. Mr. Gledhill inqnired if it was the intention of the Government to fix the rate of charges for landing goods, or was it to bo left to tho company to fix. Mr. Kelly said if the Government granted a monopoly, ihey would also have to protect the pnblic from imposition. Mr. Brown said he could give a little information as regards the present company. The speaker then went into the particulars of the starting and progress of the Taranaki Lighter Company. He objected to the resolution as it now stood, and thought it would be better to invite tenders for landing and shipping cargo at a rate per ton. He begged to propose as an amendment, that after the words " price" at the end of Clause A, the following words be added " And to return it of the same value or its equivalent in money, and pay interest for the use of the same a definite snm per ton, on every ton landed and shipped," and to add another clause to the resolutiou as follows : " The tender to be in the form of rate per ton, at which cargo will be landed or shipped." He thought that if another Company was startod, tho shares shonld be smaller and distributed over a larger numbar of shareholders than composed tho present Lighter Company. It was necessary to have a cheaper way of landing cargo, on which in agro.it measure tho future prosperity of the place depended. J Mr. Gledhill seconded tho amendment, exJ pressing his opinion that the present high rate j charged for landing- and shipping cargo, was I detrimootal to the progress of the Province.

The Provincial Secretary in reply, said that if the price for landing and shipping cargo was reduced, the Government would have to make it up somewhere, and tho cost would eventually ! fall on the public. He then compared the charges made here with those of Canterbury, and other ports, which he showed were equally as high as the present shipping duties here. On tho motion of Mr. Brown, on account of there being only a small attendance of members, the debate was adjourned till tho next sitting day. ALTERATION IN THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT. Mr. C. Brown in moving — " That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent requesting him to call a meeting of the Electors of this Province to take into consideration whether any, and if any, what alterations appear desirable in the form of Government in this Province," said that although tho present question was a wide one, it was nevertheless one of great importance, and bethought a more harmonious working of tho two Govern-^ ments would bo likely to take plaoe if the motions •' whioh he h<td tabled to move on a future day, were adopted. He had embodied his opinions in those motions, and he felt that in all fairness to his constituents that some communication should take place between himself and them before he went to the General Assembly. To ascertain what course it would be most advisable to pursue in the future, and to hear what were the views of tho public on the subject, he wished a public meeting to be called. Without speaking on the future part of the question too much, he believed that ie would be beneficial to tho Province to take advantage of the assistance of the Goneral Government. This Province, he was happy to say, was in a better condition with regard to tho expenditure than most of the other Provinces, yet ho believed that before long some change was likely to take place. It was their duty, therefore, to see that they were going the right way in assisting the formation of one system of Government, and would be able to take their proper position in any future alteration which was likely to take plaoe. He thought that many offices of Provincial and General Government might be combined without clashing. A Superintendent so appointed, he believed, would work harmoniously with the Executive and Conncil, and likewise form a mediator between the two Governments. At present if a Superintendent be a man of strong will, and believed it was his dnty to carry out a principle, and fight ie out, it was possible the Province might suffer. He always disapproved of an elective Superintendent, and considered that it was a blot in the Constitution Act, therefore, he considered if the Snperintenwas a nominee, appointed to do the work, and carry on the business of the Province, it would be beneficial to them all. The speaker then brought under notice of the Couucil the workings of the other Provinces in the Colony, showing how the Executive Councils were continually clashing with tlieir Superintendents. What he considered would obviate tbis difficulty was either to get rid of the Superintendent's power, or do away with the Executive's. He considered that the head of the Executive should be tbe head of the Province — virtually the Superintendent — and the Superintendent be a power between the General Government and the Province, as the Governor was between the Government of this Colony and the Imperial Government. He brought the present motion forward because be should soon have to attend the General Assambly, and felt bound to show his views to his constituents before he advocated them in Wellington, which he considered ho should not be justified in doing if he had noc previously met the electors, and obtained an expression of their opinion. Mr. Gledhill was not in favour of a Superintendent being otherwise than elective, but would second the motion, as he wished to know the feelings of the Council on the question. Mr. Upjohn thought that the present Superintendent and Exeoutive were doing their utmost to cut down the expenditure, and he thought that if tho Superintendent was made a nominee of the General Government they would not benefit by it. The peoples outside, he believed, wonld scout the idea, and that seven out of every ten would be in favour of an elective Superintendent. They had an example before them in Westport — the uewly established connty shire. He saw from the papers that the people there wero dissatisfied: for a chairman had been appointed by the Government, who turned out to bo the very man they least wanted ; and the expense of the chairman and tho Board were nearly half as much again. He was in favour of an elective Superintendent. If the constituents put in a man who spent the public money badly, why then it was their own fault, and they had it in their power to remedy. They had power to put a stop to it, and could elect another Superintendent and Executive who would work as thoy wanted. The present Superintendent and Executive \rere willing to retrench, and were retrenching, and he did not think the Government could be done cheaper than it was. He did not see any objeotio:i to the calling of a public meeting, but he thought due notice should be given of it fully a fortnight before it was to take place, and that a notice should be published in the papers, so that every one might know of it. Mr. Kyngdon would support the resolution for asking the Superintendent to call a public meeting. He thought that a Superintendent appointed by the General Government would create an ill feeling at onco. ne much preferred, himself, fleeing the Superintendent elected by tho people. Mr. Gledhill did not think that any great change for the better was likely to be the resnlt of the alteration proposed, for he did not see that the present expenditure of the Government could be reduced more thau it was, and if they reduced the officials from fifteen to five, still the head musk be kept ; aud he thought it was likely that they would have to pay as much and keep as many officials as they had — [Mr. Kelly : More] — Then it was better to remain as they were. The hon. member for the town had not shown or explained how the expenses were to be reduced. He was not opposed to public meetings, on the contrary he rather approved of them. The Provincial Secretary, although he differed in some respects with what had fallen from different members, yet, as regards publio meetings, he believed they were useful. He thought that ample notice should bo given, so that those in the country districts could be present, and have a chance of expressing their opinion on a subject of such vital importance) to the Province and Colony at largo, as the ono now under their consideration. He considered that if tho Province was handed over to the General Government, the people would bo powerless. The Colony was at present burthened with officers, and expenditure which the Government had not tried to reduce. They were heavily in debt, but he saw no way to lessen the taxation of the country than by increasing the population. Mr. Brown then briefly replied, and the motion on being put was carried. RELIEF FUND. Mr. Upjohn in moving — " That his Honor the Superintendent be requested to cause a return of all persons receiving relief from the relief fund, or that have done so for tho last six months, to be laid before this Council," said ho had reason to believe from what he had been told, thafc I j persons were receiving benefit from this fund i whioh ought not to, and he thonght it right to j ask f<>r the roturn, so that tho members of tho ; Council might judge for themselves whether ! what he had heard was true. Mr. Veale seconded the resolution. Tho Provincial Secretary stated ho had no objections to have the return laid on the table, j The relief fund had been placed in the hands of a Committee, who of course had great, difficulties to contend with, to prevent boing imposed ou. j He was not aware of any imposition beiug ! practiced on the Committee, but if auy person i was aware of any such imposition being carried on, they had a right to communicate it at once to the Relieving Board. Mr. Gledhill thonght that some change should be made in tho presont system of relief. He kuew of instances where men who idled about the public-houses, and got into debt, were found missing one fine morning, leaving their wives to apply to the Relief Board. He believed nil this was arranged between tho husband and wife.

He would advise that such men as those should bo fetched back and imprisoned. Ho had suggested the idea to the Superintendent, but his Honor had declined to carry it out. Ho believed that if his suggestion had been carried out, it would have been a great saving to tho Province. The motion wns thon put, and agreed to. / THE EDUCATION BILL. The Provincial- Secretary in moving the second reading of tho Education Bill, said it was so well known that it neoded little comment from him. He thought it was the duty of the Government to assist iv the education of children especially in the rural districts, wbero tho parents would have no means of sending their children to a school. The bill proposed would enablo country districts to establish local Committees with power to raise funds in each district for their support. Therefore any district requiring a school could apply to have a committeo established in their district. He considered that before asking assistance from the Government, they should 'show some disposition to do something for themselves. Ho was happy to say that the present state of education in tha Province was better than five or seven years ago, which was to be attributed he believed to the war, when the children had a chance of gaining instruction which they would not again have. Tho educational statistics of New Plymouth showed a larger percentage than any other part of tho Colony (hear), but pefore the war it was tha worst place. He would wish to keep the education of the Province at the present standard, bnt that could not be doufe unless provisions wero made to do so. The present bill had been some time iv print and had been circulated among the members, so that he need not dilate on each separate clause. But there was one (clause 33) relating to secular eduoation which he wished to amend. And the one he had brought down that day would considerably modify it. There was no sectarian feeling in this Province ; but at some places which were pecnliar sectarian it would have boon neoessary to introduce such a clause, but here, where every denomination were on such friendly terms it was not at all necessary. Tho pci 1 centage of education amongst children here he was happy to say was much higher than in England. In the best manufacturing districts of England he fo-ind that the per oentages was GOO of those under 15 years who could read while here, it was 67"0. Ho felt a pleasure in adverting to this fact, and to find that this Province was in a better position thau England in this respect. He believed that education should be the charge of the General Government, who should provide a national system, and a tax levied or fund from some other source provided to support free schools, for people unable to pay to have their children eduoated. The speaker then apoke of the Americans as being the most educated nation in the world, and said it vvas the duty of a nation to protect its people from crime, by seeing that its children were properly educated. He then asked leave to have the amended clause introduced into the bill. Mr. Brown in seconding the reading of this Bill a second time, would not admit that education in nny way diminished crime. He approved of the amended clpuse being introduced, as he believed by the Ministers of Religion having power to visit schools they tended to raise the moral character of the children being eduoated. He thought that education of a permissive character should be encouraged, and he would rather assist than oppose the denominational character of schools. Mr. Upjohn said that what had fallen from the last speaker did him great honor. He highly approved of the permissive fiysfcem being adopted. He thought well of the Bill for it permitted the people to tax themselves, which those who wished to have their children edncatod conld do. j He did not approve of the secular clause, and would not vote for it if it prevent the Scripture being read in schools, or clergymen of different denominations from being admitted. He was pleased to hear of the present state of education in this Province, as 6tated by tho Provincial Secretary, and a debt of gratitude was due to the Bishop of Nelson for the education the children of this Province had received. During the war, when the children were in Neleon, it did not matter whether thoy.- were Churoh of England, Presbyterian, or any other denomination, the Bishop saw that they were educated with the children of that Province, for education was his motto. It had done great good to Taranaki. He was in favour of the pormissive system which allowed the Scriptures to be read in schools. Mr. Elliot did not agree with tho last speaker nor did he disiigr^e with tho Bill, but ho thought if it was passed it would remain inoperative. He thought tho people were taxed heavily as it was, and he did not think they would impose another tax on themselves. Ho was glad to hear from the Provincial Secretary of the state of education in the Province, but he did not believe that tho Bill would assist in keeping the present staudard up, for some parents would not send their children to school unless compelled. Unless the parents worked with the schoolmasters, it was of very little use thoirdoinganyching. It depended on tho parent. The Bill under their consideration imposed another tax which tho people could not afford, therefore, he would not support any Bill wtr'cli was likely to increase tho taxation of the placo. If the income was not sufficieut, why then they must reduce their expences. Mr. Kyxgd'M disagreed with clause 6, in the Bill, ho thought that trustees should be appointed, for in claure 22, where a Committee has to appoint tho teachers' they would be responsible for those teacher's salaries. He was in favour of denominational schools, for Ministers of Religion, he thought, took more interest in the education of children than anyone else, (hear, hear,) aud he considered the Bible should be road in every school. The scholars should be subject to certain tests, ho thought, before tho teacher received any grant from Government, by whioh means it would be to the teachers interest to push tho children on with their education. He did not like the bill, and thought it would remain inoperative in tho out districts who would never consent to be freshly taxed. j Mr. Gledhill said the Bill was for the outdistricts. He wished there had been some clause in it to compel parents to send their children to sohool. He thought that tho Bill would not work well for two reasons. The first was the imposition of a new tax,— r[Mr. Kelly : What tax do you refer to ?] — He (Mr. G.) called it a tax of some sort, and thought it would not work. The parents would rather make their children attend to the plough, than pay £1 a year for their education. He thought that without there was a compulsory clause, it would not answer the object of the Government. Ho was quite surprised at hearing the statistics quoted by the Provincial Secretary, for he knew inaoy that conld neither read or write. Mr. Lawrence was glad thafc something was J beitig done for education, but thought that there j would bo more inducement for persons to educate J their children if it was made free, for some he know, would not scud their children to school if they had only threepence to pay. He corroborated what had been said about the Bishop of Nelson, for all the children that had been sent there during tho war wero educated tho same as those in that Province. Any Bill that proposed a tax j ou people he was opposed to, but this Bill left it to ! themselves, those who wero willing to pay would be the minority. If the parents were too poor, then the children suffered. He would certainly not vote for any Bill in which religion did not form part. He thought fhat something, should be done, or the children would suffer, and that speedily. j Tho Provincial Secretary then replied by reviewing tlio remarks that had fallen from the several speakers. The question thafc tho Bill be now road a second time was then put and the Council divided with tho following result : — Ayes 6 : Messrs. Brown, Lawrenoe, Kelly, Kyngdon, Veale aud Upjohn, Noes 2 : Messrs. Gledhill, and Elliot. Tlio Bill was thon read a second time. ROAD DISTRICT LOAN BILL. The Provincial Secretary then moved the second reading of the Bill to empower Boards of 1 Road Commissioners to borrow money for the

purpose of forming, improving, aud maintaining pnblio roads, and erecting and maintaining bridgos within their respective road districts, j and to secure tho repayment of all sums of money so raised on the road rates of tho districts for whioh suoh sums were bon'owed respectively. ' ■"" Mr. Upjokn seconded it, which on being put was carried. The Bill was then read a second time. TUB DOG TAX. Mr. Upjohn moved — •" That his Honor the Superintendent be requested to causo a return of all districts in which tho Itoad Commissioners did not cause the dog tax to bo levied in the year 1807, to)be furnished to tbis Council." Mr. Brown seconded the motion. THE MOUNTAIN KOAD. Mr. Upjohn wished to ask the Provincial Secretary whether the roud belaud tho moiin. tain was likely to bo proceeded with, and wheu ? The Provincial Secretary could only answer tho question by giving his own impressions. Tho Government had not yet received any answer on the subject from tbe General Government, nor did he expect anything would bo done until after tho Assembly met. He believed there was a difference of opinion in the Cabinet, with reference to tiie confiscated lands, and the question would bo submitted to tho Assembly when it wero call id together. Until an answer arrived the Provincial Government could do nothing in the matter. This being tho whole of the business, the Council adjourned at 5*30 nntil Tuesday next at 2 o'clock.