LABOUR PARTY DEBATE

Taranaki Daily News, 25 July 1930, Page 13

LABOUR PARTY DEBATE

STATE AND PRIVATE TRADING CHAMBER OF"COMMERCE SPEAKER VIEWS GIVEN IN NEW PLYMOUTH The tenet that ‘‘municipal and State trading is in the beet interests of the community” was debated in New Plymouth last evening by representatives of the Labour Party and of the Taranaki Chamber of Commerce. The Labour Party, which supported the motion, was represented by Messrs. W, A. Sheat, W. G. Simpson, B. Thorne and G. Fleming. The Chamber of Commerce, who opposed the motion, was represented by Messrs. C. H. Weston, J. R. McGregor, L. M. Moss and F. T. Davis. There was a fair attendance and the meeting was presided over by the Mayor (Mr. 11. V. 6. Griffiths). The leaders were given 15 minutes to speak and the others ten. By agreement no motion was put to the meeting after - the debate. They intended to argue that private enterprise did not give the fullest useful service to the State, said Mr. Sheat in opening the debate for the Labour Party; that the municipal enterprises already existing were of benefit to the State; and that public enterprise was desirable in the interests of the community. In most countries many public services, such as lighting, water supply and drainage, had come to be regarded as a natural thing. In the sphere of State enterprise the Post and Telegraph system was particularly notable. The State had gone further and entered in the commercial sphere in railways, banking, insurance and other activities. There Were three reasons why State enterprise were being undertaken. The first was the tendency towards monopolies, the second was excess competition in other parts of the world, and the third was fiscal reasons, The last was applied in Europe rather than in New Zealand, where the State took over the services to assist industry through difficult periods. PRACTICE OF MONOPOLISTS. The practice of monopolists was to place goods on the market at the price which gave the largest profits. Some monopolies were brought about by the squeezing out of smaller businesses. The remaining businesses linked together and set their- own price. That was what was happening .in New Zealand, which had the dearest bread in the world. Mr. Sheat foresaw the nationalisation of the milling industry and the municipalisation of the baking industry. Excessive competition through the duplication of services caused waste. If these services were undertaken by the municipalities this wasteful competition would be prevented. In New Zealand the value of this system was seen in the success of the Wellington municipal milk, supply. . He wished to place, four propositions before them, said Mr. Weston, in opening the debate for the Chamber of Commerce. The first was that although all aimed at an ideal state, it must be remembered that the community was composed of individuals. Secondly, it was good for the community as a whole that the individuals, including companies and firms, should make reasonable profits. Thirdly, State and municipal enterprise were managed and carried on, as a rule, in an uneconomic fashion and in competition with individuals by unfair competition prevented the individual from making a reasonable profit. Fourthly, he would argue that it was in the best interest of the community that the State and municipality should restrict their enterprise to enterprises that individuals could not undertake. A healthy community, said Mr... Weston, was a community of healthy individuals? A man who was in private business making a fair profit did a service to the community. He employed labour in his business, in keeping his house .in good order, in perhaps employing a maid. He kept money in circulation.

.WELLINGTON MILK SUPPLY. . With regard to the argument that the Wellington, municipal milk supply was a success he would say that the reason was that it was managed by a man of outstanding ability, one of the most able in New Zealand. Government competition, said Mr. Weston, was'often unfair. He instanced the Government’s supply of trees. The department’s papers were printed by the State printing press free of charge, the trees were sent by rail free of charge, and the State paid no income tax, no land tax, and no interest on capital. That .was unfair competition. It was granted that the State should control certain things, such as the Customs, defence, the police force, Lands Department and gaols. But why should the State be burdened with railways, telephones, coal mines, tramways and electricity 1 If a private company could be pers aded to take over the railways who among the audience would stand in the way? The appalling waste evident in present- society, said Mr. Simpsofl, was due ■ to private enterprise. Wherever any advance in the condition of society had been made it was due to the leadership of the State. | Mr, Simpson pointed a moral from a tale told by Jules Verne. Four men were left on a solitary island; they worked happily together and lived comfortably. “Then,” said Mr. Simpson, “one man decides to sleep on the beach, and does nothing else but sleep on the beach. The second decides to make mud pies all the time. The third man decides to build a house, but instead of using the stones on the beach he carts them over distant hills. The fourth man sets fire to all the timber on the island.” That, said Mr. Simpson, was the state of society to-day under private enterprise. The men who slept on the beach were the unemployed, who had nowhere efee to go. The men who made mud pies were the men in society who made armaments, jerry-built houses, and sold adulterated goods. The men who carted the stones were the private traders who sent produce from, above Waitara to be shipped from Patea, or vice versa. The men who burnt the timber were the meh who caused wanton waste through excess competition. ALTERNATIVE TO MUDDLE? The only possible alternative to the present muddle was State and municipal control. Private- enterprise had

given its results —hunger stalking. the country to-day. The State and municipal authorities—he. could not say when—would have to step in to attain the desired end, the,.greatest good for the greatest number.. Even the post. office service, which Mr. Sheat held up as a. model, said Mr. McGregor, had its. Tailing. The urgent district messenger service, in England had to be started by a private company in the face of opposition from the State post office. . The railways in New .Zealand had made great losses .during recent years and the Minister 1 had. recently dismissed men on the staff, not because he had no work for them, but because he had no money to pay .them/ If a private concern were running the railways, it would surely find ‘the money to pay the men if it had the work for them to do. Mr. McGregor pointed to "Australia as a striking example of the results of State enterprise. Everybody., knew the state of the Commonwealth Shipping Line. One of the great objections to municipal enterprise ‘was. the fact that municipal businesses did not show a propel’ balance-sheet. How were people to know, unlees proper costs were shown and full taxes allowed for, that their enterprises were of value to the community?. The British Post’ Office, mid Mr. Thorne in reply, in 1929 ■showed a surplus of £9,000,000. In England great progress had been made- in municipal enterprise, and £300,000,000.000 was invested in public property, including 1000 waterwork systems, 300 electrical undertakings, schools' and racecourses. These municipal undertakings were being run at a profit. u-An' estimate had been made over six electrical undertakings run by private:-enterprise and six run by municipal enterprise. It had been found that the average price of tlie current from the private concerns was 4d a unit and from the municipal concerns 2d a unit.- -At the same time the municipal concerns .were run at a profit. !.,».! - ■ CORNERING OF COMMODITIES. The general point..was, said Mr. Thorne, that people did. not take sufficient interest in the-things they owned. It was not against the profits of private enterprise that they aimed; it was against the power of private enterprise to corner commodities, for a handful of people to say to a great many people: “To-day you shall feed and tomorrow you shall starve.” The question boiled down to individualism versus nationalisation, said Mr. Moss. Fortunately 'Ne ; w '■' Zealand had recognised the right of /private enter?

> prise. Both Sir Joseph Ward and Sir • Robert Stout, two noted publie men, had ' an opportunity of making the Bank of i New Zealand a. State bank when the • bank required financial help to enable it to carry on. Very wisely they had let i the bank remain a private business and , had invested the country’s money in it. ; The sum of £500,000 was invested then, with the result that to-day the public {owned £2,000,000 out of the bank’s t capital of £6,000,000. Through the success of this private enterprise the State was now receiving huge sums annual- - in interest —10 per cent, on £500,000 and 15 per cent, on £1,500/100. The Commonwealth Bank in Australia had been quoted as a successful State bank. > The only reason it had been successful, , said Mr. Moss, was because the director, Sir Hugh Dennison, had refused to run it on any policy other than that of private enterprise. Parliament was never designed as a trading institution, eaid Mr. Mose. He closed with an appeal for the preservation, of the freedom and virility of private trading. Service should be the aim of all. enterprise, said Mr. Fleming, whether public or private. Private enterprise was more unscrupulous than public enterprise. State and municipal enterprise had not been given fair treatment because of a lack of sympathetic administration. Waste must be caused under the excessive competition of private enterprise and men lost interest in their work. All that was demanded of a modern product was that it should be made quickly, that it should look as if it were good, and that it should be cheap. The° large sums of money written off in State services each year under the Appropriations Act were pointed out by Mr. Davis. In 1921, the Public Trust had written off £23,841 as losses on securities, and in 1928 £75,009. In a State house-building scheme in the Waikato the sum of £54,172 was the loss in 1927, and in 1928 it had grown to £68,620. t . In his final reply Mr. Sheat pointed out that although speakers had referred to the losses on the railways none of them had mentioned that the losses were infinitely compensated for by the rise in land values in the districts which the railways served. On behalf of ’ the Taranaki Chamber of Commerce Mr. Weston thanked the Labour Party for the invitation to hold the debate. The question had been debated in the most friendly way and it had been a great advantage to the chamber to hear the four speakers of the Labour Party. Mr. Simpson and Mr. Sheat were old friends, and they had been pleased to welcome Mr. Thorne and delignted to hear Mr. Fleming. ■_ A vote of thanks was’• passed to the Mayor’ for presiding., .