PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Colonist, Volume II, Issue 163, 13 May 1859, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Thursday, May 5. All the members present except Messrs. Elliott, M'Rae, and Redwood. The Speaker in the chair. The minutes of preceding meeting were read and confirmed. MESSAGES. The following Messages were received and read:— ■ Message No. 12, enclosing copies of correspondence having reference to the appropriation of a sum of £300 which was withheld by the directors of the New Zealand Company, in the year 1843, from the owner of the ship Lloyds, as a fine for the conduct of the master during thie voyage to Nelson, and the Superintendent requested the opinion of the Council in the matter. Message No. 13, enclosing a copy of memorial from 115 inhabitants of the town, praying that the Nelson Town Improvement Act be repealed. Message No. 14, enclosing the Estimates of Re- A ceipts and Expenditure for the year. ™ HOSPITAL MANAGEMENT, BOARD. Dr. Renwick moved—"That an address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to instruct the Provincial Solicitor to prepare a bill for the purpose of establishing a Board of Management for the Hospital,; so as to give effect to the report of the Council of last session." In bringing this motion before the Council, he would first,have to revert to the proceedings of last session. A select committee was appointed, and took a large amount of evidence.The Council recommended that two medical men at least should be appointed to attend the Hospital, as well as three visiting members,1 one of.whom was to beappointed by the Superintendent, and two by the Council, and he thought that it was the general understanding that it was desirable to do so this session by special enactment. The Provincial Secretary had stated that the Hospital was at present conducted as well as any in the colony, he did not doubt but that such was the case; but in the appointment of the medical officers of the Hospital were the elements of discord. There had been three medical men appointed, two of whom were partners. If a dispute should arise, the third medical man would be placed in an unenviable position. He was prepared to hear the Government object on the ground that legislative bodies ought not to interfere, with the functions of the Executive, but he thought that the Government would be only too glad to get rid of part of their multifarious duties. Dr. Monro, in seconding the motion, said that he wished to take advantage of the present opportunity to explain a matter in connection with the subject before them, which was partly of a personal, but at the same time was of a public nature. The Council would no doubt recollect, that, in order to give effect to their views with regard to the management of the Hospital, they had, last year, elected Mr. Rough and himself to be two of a Board of Management to act in concert with a third member, to be appointed by the Superintendent. This having taken place, he thought it due to the Council to explain how it was that he was not now discharging the duties of the office to which they had done him the honor to elect him. The facts were these : some months after the prorogation of the Council, lie received a letter from the Provincial Secretary, in which he was informed that the Executive Government could not recognise election by the Council as giving a legal authority for the discharge of any Executive functions ; that any such appointment must come from the Superintendent; and stating the Superintendent's readiness to appoint him (Dr. Monro) one of the Board of Management. Whether the Executive Government were right or wrong in this interpretation of constitutional law, he. would not now pause to consider. No doubt, the opinion of the legal luminaries of the Executive had been taken. The answer which he had returned to the Government had been read. by the Provincial Secretary the other evening, and he would now repeat its sense. It was this: that his Honor the Superintendent had on a former occasion made him an offer of an appointment (that; namely, of Commissioner under the Compensation Act.) He had accepted it, and after waiting pome two or three months, holding himself in readiness to serve, had, to his great surprise, seen one morning in the Gazette that another gentleman had been appointed. This was certainly, to say the least of it, most discourteous treatment, and he did not think that any person of ordinary self-respect would like to sub- . ject himself, to such treatment a second time. It was not only, however, of the want of courtesy r - that he complained; but, upon requiring some explanation, his Honor had thought proper to indulge in statements which were inconsistent with * truth. His statements upon the occasion were.*what would be called, in the language of his friend on the left (Mr. Curtis), v inaccuracies on matters of fact." These were the reasons why. hewas not now acting. He declined all official connection with his Honor's Government. As elected by the Council, he should have esteemed it an honor to hold the office; but he would not consent to be nominated by a Superintendent who had treated him and who had behaved in the way he had mentioned. And if, in declining this appointment, the Council was of opinion that he had done wrong, it was open to them to tell him so. Passing now more immediately to the subject of the.motion before them, lie cordially supported it. He felt that the public would have more confidence in ft hospital managed by a board specially constituted,, than by the ordinary Executive Government. It was customary in Great Britain to manage hospitals in that way. Persons who subscribed to their support, or who were distinguished for their activity in works of charity, or who by professional training were supposed to be able to contribute to their success, were commonly selected for that purpose. Here, it was true, that they had perhaps no wide range of selection; but still he thought they might get a board better suited for the object than the Executive Government was. ■'■ The Provincial Solicitor said that he opposed the appointment of the managers of the Hospital by the Provincial Council last session, and would also oppose it at the present time, on principle* He objected to legislative bodies having anything to do with Executive functions. The Government had no wish to keep the appointment of the managers in their own hands, but he thought it was better in the hands of the Government than left with the Council. It was true that two of the medical men were partners, but such might have been the case had the appointment been left with the Council. He h<id not heard that the legislative bodies had appointed managers either in Wellington, Auckland, or Australia. The motion was put. The Council divided. ,'..'. ; ,"' Ayes "14. . "". Noes 5. • Mr. Wella . The Provincial Solicitor Vyvyan Provincial Secretary Curtis Mr. Wetnyss ];■■'' ' Dr. Mnnro . . Baigent Mr. Sinclair Simmonda Gibbs. - Mackay X el ling ... Sharp . Marsden Dr. Kenwick . Mr. Hewetson Dodson :- Saunders ■ - • ■ Mr. Parker declined to vote. The motion was agreed to. ' DOG NUISANCE AMENDMENT BILL. The Provincial Solicitor moved the second reading of the Dog Nuisance. Amendment Bill, y The Council went into committee on the bill ' Mr. Wells in the chair. ■ In answer to Mr. Parker, the Provincial Soli- '; citor said that the natives were equally liable td the tax as Europeans. •' " ' Mr. Dodson was of opinion that the* act would be better carried out by doing away with the tickets altogether, and substituting the plan of registering as hi England.'..' , Mr. Simmonbs proposed a new clause to the ef-t feet that the proceeds of the sale of dog tickets, after deducting the expenses, should be handed over to the various Road Boards. The clause was agreed to, and the remainder of the clauses having been passed, the Council resumed.. ; . • - l :

: CEMETERY BILL. The Provincial Solicitor asked leave to postpone the' motion standing in his name on the above bill. ■ ■:■;■• . The.Council then adjourned until Tuesday. Tuesday, May 10. . All the members present except Messrs. Elliott, Redwood, and Vyvyan. The Speaker in the chair. The minutes of last meeting read and agreed to. ■. ' ■ THISTLE BILL. Dr. Monro moved "the second reading of the Thistle Bill." He did not think that there was any occasion in making a long speech on this subject, lie would state that he had taken the greater part of the present bill from the Wellington act. The Council of, Wellington had passed an act, and then made ; two amendments to it, and they now thought they had arrived at that which was needful. The Australian colonies had found such'a bill requisite, and he thought it would act • beneficially fov the agriculturists in this province. Mr. Sinclair seconded the motion. Mr. Dodson wished Dr. Monro to particularise j the kind of thistle the bill was intended for, or whether it included thistles of all sorts. If the latter, he could say that the bill would bear very hard on the agriculturists generally. There were some sorts of thistles it was almost impossible to eradicate. ;; Mr- Saunders thought that Mr. Dodson's land was much like his own—very much infested with those weeds, but he held that the worse it was to eradicate the thistle, the more need there was of a bill to compel people to do so. The matter ought to have been brought before the Council some years ago ; the fanners would then have felt the benefit of it at the .present time. He would support the bill, but thought it ought to have been more stringent. lie hoped, however, that if it was passed it would not be like some bills that had been passed in that Council, never looked after. It was his opinion that people who cultivated small patches of land, ought not to be allowed to grow as many thistles as would fill his neighbours sections with the weed. He would call Dr. Monro's attention to what he considered an omission in the bill—labor would be required to eradicate the thistles when parties either omitted or refused to do it themselves, and a special sum would be required to be voted for that purpose. Mr. Kelling supported the motion, but he would have done so had gorse been included in the bill; gorse was equally as great an evil, and the watercourses carried the seed a great distance. The Council then went into committee on the bill; Mr. Parker in the chair. On the first clause being read, Dr. Monro pi'oposcd to fill up the first blank with the sum of 2s. 6d., and the second 20s. Mr. Kelling moved as an amendment, that the respective sums should be £1 and £5. Dr. Monro thought that if the amendment was carried it would render the bill inoperative, and the usefulness of the bill would be frustrated. Mr. Sawders suggested that the fine ought to | be so much per head. Mr. Killing's amendment was put and lost. After some discussion, Mr. Sharp moved as an amendment, that the sums should be 10s. and 405., and that would leave the Magistrates some discretion in inflicting the penalties. Mi. Dodson opposed the amendment, and said that when the defaulters were summoned before the Magistrates there were other expenses besides the fine. The amendment was then put, and the Council divided. Ayes 14. Noes 5. The* Provincial Secretaiy Mr. Sinclair Mr. Wells Maclcay Curtis Marsden Dr. Monro Baigent Mr. Wemvss Dodson Gibbs* M'Rae Kelling Sharp Dr. Renyvick Mr. Hewetson Sim.monds ..., Saundera Barnicoat The Provincial Solicitor declined to vote. The amendment was carrried. Mr. Sharp then proposed an amendment to the effect that persons neglecting to cut down the thistles after having received a second notice, a constable, or some other authorised person, should cut them down and the expenses be charged to the party so neglecting. On this amendment being put the Council divided. Ayes 13. Noes 6. Mr. Saundera Mr. Dodson Simmonds Marsden Baigent Gibbs Hewetson Sinclair Sharp Dr. Monro Kelling Renwick M'Rae Maclcay Wemyss Wells The Provincial Secretary The Provincial Solicitor Mr. Barnicoat The amendment was carried, and the clause as amended was agreed to. Clause No. 2, after a few verbal amendments, was also passed. On clause No. 3 being read, Mr. Baigent moved as an amendment, " that the expense of such advertisement, on conviction of the offenders, be returned to the party complaining." Agreed to, and clause as amended carried. In clause No. 4 the blanks were filled respectively with 10s. and 405., and agreed to. After some discussion on clause 5, the Council resumed, and the Chairman reported progress. ASSESSMENT OF RURAL LANDS. Dr. Monro moved, " that it is the opinion of this Council that rural land, of good quality, suited for agricultural purposes, should be assessed at a higher price than ten shillings per acre." He had been induced to bring this motion before the Council on account of the large Government land sales which would take place at an early date. He had observed that the rural lands had been put up at 10s. per acre. He had never been an advocate for cheap land ; and, generally speaking, land at its intrinsic worth was fairer to all classes of the community. Cheap land seldom did any good to the working classes, but the contraiy was thought by some political economists. When the price of land was low, it opened the country up to capitalists, with whom it was useless for the working man to compete. In the land sales alluded to, he had observed that -some of the finest agi'icultural land in the province had been put up at 10s. per acre. He presumed that none of the Executive had seen the land he spoke of, but very probably had heard of it by report, and should have assessed the value accordingly. A plough might be driven through the land for miles. Had the Executive paid more attention to the 15th clause of the Land Regulations, the assessment would have been much fairer. Under Sir George Grey's regulations, land in remote districts had been sold at a very low rate. His opinion was, that land should not be forced into the market, to make an immediate large revenue. If such a course was pursued, it would lower the price of land, and induce speculators to purchase the best lands, and in fact they would buy up all the available land in a few years. He regretted that a motion of this sort had not been brought before the Council some time ago. Mr. Kelling seconded the motion, and said that the present bill ought to have been passed four or five years ago. Good Jtand in the Wairau had been sold at ss. per acre, which was now worth from £5 to £6. Mr. Parker supported the motion. When large blocks of land were put up to'auction, it rarely happened that there was any competition ; but if it was put up in small blocks, persons of limited means could then have a chance of securing a homestead.- Had the land been put up at first in small blocks, at a fair price, there would not have been any occasion for the present motion. Mr. Dodson supported the motion, and in doing: #o, would state that in his opinion the cheap land

regulations of Sir George Grey, instead of being a boon, had been positively an injury to the working men. Under those regulations, blocks of land of any size might be bought: of course the land speculator purchased in large blocks, so that the working man should not have a chance to purchase, unless at second hand, and at enhanced prices. Mr. Simmonds thought that the land was not assessed according to its worth, and instanced part of the Moutere as being assessed at as high a rate as some of the best agricultural lands in the province. Mr. Saunders would support the motion, and like Dr. Monro, regretted that such a motion had not been carried before. He did not like the present system of disposing of the waste lands, and did not agree with Mr. Parker that things would have been much better if land had been put for sale in small blocks, as the expenses were so great. The Provincial Secretary had no particular objection to the motion ; but he doubted much if it would answer. However, the experiment might be tried. Dr. Monro, in reply to Mr. Kelling, stated the present regulations did not come in force until the Ist July, 1856. He would also state that land had been soid for ss. per acre that was now worth from £5 to £6 per acre. He did not think that raising the price ofthe land would diminish the revenue to any extent. The motion was put and agreed to. ESTIMATES. The Provincial Secretary, in introducing the Estimates, said he should not detain the Council long with observations upon the Revenue calculated, and Expenditure proposed, for the ensuing 'year. The sources of the revenue of the province were so feW and simple, and so little varied in each succeeding year, that the items and figures almost sufficiently explained themselves. Our revenue was mainly derived from the Customs and land sales. A large amount was set down as the probable proceeds of land sales this j'ear. The purchases of land would be chiefly of considerable tracts, held on depasturage leases in the outlying districts in the eastern part of the province, by the runholders or others competing for the runs. With respect to the Customs' Revenue, the Council would observe that this had been estimated nearly at the same amount as lasfc year, which during that period had been but little exceeded. There was no doubt, however, that an increase in this portion of our revenue would take place shortly, were it only from the large amounts of public money that would be spent in the province in the next twelve months The revenue to be expended under these Estimates would amount to £58,000 odd. To this was to be added the balance ofthe sums to he raised under the Debenture Act, amounting to about £14,000. There was another sum which, though not coming in any way under the control of the Council, was still public money, and would contribute to the result he was considering. This was the £8000 now immediately to be spent upon the erection of the buildings for the Nelson College. To that they might fairly reckon upon at least £83,000 of public money to be spent in tlie province during the next twelve months or so. Now all this would certainly increase the Customs' Revenue proportionally But as it was not at all certain that this increase would accrue immediately upon the expenditure taking place, and the whole of the latter would not have been made before the expiration of the year, Government thought it the best and most prudent course to set down the Customs' Revenue at about the same amount it had reached in each of the last two years This was all it was necessary to remark upon the Revenue. Then, with respect to the Expenditure, the Council would perceive that almost the whole of the additional revenue was proposed to be expended upon the public works and purposes most desirable in a young colony. Very little increase had been made in the salaries and expenses of the ordinary departments of Government, those in the salaries being, though to a trifling extent, almost exclusively in the Land Department The expenditure upon public works and purposes was divided into general and local The first class included those items of expense which might fairly be said to be incurred for the benefit of the whole ,of the province Among these the largest sums were set down for Education, Immigration, and Surveys, the Public Wharf it was con- j sidered desirable to build for the accommodation of the mail steamers, and the new Council Chamber and Public Offices- The item for Education was £300 \ a sum which would be rendered necessary if any^ alteration in the system which the Government intended to introduce a bill for effecting, and by which the present Education Rate would be abolished—should be carried in the Council. The consideration of this item, he should propose to postpone till the fate of the new measure was decided, and it was only placed first on the list because of the paramount importance of the subject. The other items in this class of the expenditure, were for the great lines of road through the centre and down the east and western sides of the province, which had been alluded to and discussed in the debate on the Superintendent's speech. The other class of expenditure was for local purposes, the benefit of which, though still to a certain extent general, was more particularly intended for the inhabitants of particular districts The funds for these purposes were proposed to be divided, not, certainly, according to the proportions in which they accrued iii the several districts—a principle which he contended was not by any means the most just or politic to be adopted—but partly according to this principle, and chiefly according to the number and the nepds of the inhabitants in the several districts. The province had been considered as divided into three parts, and the expenditure accordingly divided in nearly equal proportions amongst the three, namely, the Blind, or Tasman Bay district, the Wairau district, and the Golden, or Massacre Bay district. Tlie objects of the expenditure were mainly those to which new colonists generally would sacrifice everything else—including bishops, judges, superintendents, and all classes of officials, —namely, roads and bridges. Of course he did not expect that any of them would be satisfied. All he should say was, that the Government had endeavored fairly to divide the revenue among the districts,. and do equal justice to the outlying and more thinly peopled districts, and to the nearer and more populous ones. He would say nothing as to the specific items, as each of them would, doubtless, be discussed by the Council, but simply move that the Council do now go into committee for their consideration. The following items were then passed :— The salary of the Superintendent was fixed at £500. On the item Chief Clerk to the Provincial Secretaiy, £20<\ being read, ' Mr. Curtis moved as &n amendment that the salary be £250. Mr. Saunders opposed the motion, and said that the officer was sufficiently paid, taking into consideration that the present officer also received £50 as Immigration Agent. The Council then divided on the amendment, with the following result, ayes, 8 ; noes, 4. The amendment was carried and the item passed. SURVEY DEPARTMENT. Dr. Monro moved thafc the salary of a Survey Officer ought to be in accordance to his ability, and thought that £400 per annum was not too much ; it was a most essential department, and he did not think that the gentleman who was in office at present had a fair chance. Mr. Kelling opposed the increase of salary; he had made the calculation and found that man, woman, and child were taxed at the rate of from £5 to £6 per head. The amendment was lost. An amendment was then made to the effect that the words " Commissioner of Public Works " be left out. Amendment carried, and the items then agreed to. On the Survey Office Department being read, Mr. Sinclair moved as an amendment, that the salary of the Assistant Clerk be £60. After some discussion the Council divided with the following result:'—Ayes, 7 ; Noes, 15. Amendment lost. Mr. Sharp then moved as an amendment, that the sum be £50, which was carried, as well as the Contingencies4,

The other items up to the Medical Department were passed. The Council then resumed. BOARD OF WORKS MEMORIAL. Dr. Renwick brought up the Report of the Select Committee on the Board of Works memorial REPORT. " That the Committee, after a careful consideration of the prayer ofthe memorial, viz., that the Council would authorise the Provincial Government to guarantee a loan to the Board of Works for the purpose of enabling them to undertake the construction of a brick sewer or culvert in Tra-falgar-street, and after having considered various particularssupplied by the Board of Works, and examined a letter from the inhabitants of Trafalgarstreet expressing their willingness to be specially rated for the purpose of effecting the aforesaid work, have unanimously agreed to the following resolutions:—• I "1. That this committee is of opinion that the prayer of the Board of Works be complied with. "2. Thafc a bill be introduced to carry into effect the prayer of the Board. "(Signed) Thomas Renwick, " " Chairman. "Council Chamber, Nelson, "May sth, 1859." The Council then adjourned.