SCRAPPING THE TRAMS

Poverty Bay Herald, Volume LII, Issue 17133, 8 September 1926, Page 7

SCRAPPING THE TRAMS

MR. LYSNAR AT CITY HALL /IN A FIGHTING MOOD THE PROPOSALS CONDEMNED The City Hall was packed to the doors last evening when Mr. W. P. Lysnat, M.P., took the floor to condemn the suggested scrapping of the borough trams. He was Riven an attentive hearing throughout, and although there wore numerous interjections these, in the main, were of a friendly nature. At the conclusion of the address questions were called for. ami a number were forthcoming, these being answered with characteristic vigor by the speaker. The Mayor, in briefly introducing the speaker, said that he understood the tram question because it was during his term of oftice that the trams were installed. Mr. W. D. Lysuar. who was received with applause, said that m> sacrifice was too great to him when a council was prepared to take/ away what seemed to him a service for the poor man. A considerable number of statements had been

made, but in his opinion these did not touch the* real position, nor were they v justified on the information available. Those councillors who had set themselves out to decry the trams and get rid of them if possible, did not put the matter before the ratepayers. He was one who voted for the new councillors who were responsible for the endeavor to scrap the trams. It was up to them to exhaust the matter with the ratepayers before taking action. It was no thanks to them that the ratepayers had tlie right to vote on. Friday. One did not mind one in the council against the trams, but it was different when they had six councillors against them. "MAZE OF REPETITION." He had been trying to read the data that had been given out regarding scrapping, and he had found that it was just a maze of repetition, without any kernel to it. It was a one-angled outlook, and they looked at the money' aspect only, and not from the viewpoint of the service that thg trams were rendering. He was sure that the bulk of the people would vote for a continuance of the trams. ,

Voices: Hear, hear. Continuing, Mr. Lysnar said he was sure the defeat would be an overwhelming one. The council itself was responsible for the fact that the trams did not pay, for they had never completed the scheme. Had it been carried out there) would have been no loss. The ratepayers had passed every application which the council had made for money for the trams. As soon as tho extension was made a loss was turned to a profit as far as the running expenses were concerned. As far as he see the council had rendered each of its members liable to a penalty of £5 a day because they had never completed the scheme. From 1914 till 1918 the. trams had made losses on the running expenses, , but after the latter vear they had made ?rofits because of tlio extensions. In 923 there had been a loss because of extra repairs. The council turned the service from a loss to a profit when it extended the service. There were three main issues: (1) What was the £ s d outlook?; (2) "Was the system suitable? and (3) What would the 'bus service* effect on roads be? In"dealing with those he would an swer the main contentions of the councillors who were in favor of scrapping. He was shocked that men wlm claimed to possess some commonsense should be taking up this attitude in the matter. m They had got it into their minds that ■f they had to scrap the trams, but fortunately they could not do it without the sanction of the ratepayers. LOSSES ON TEAMS. Tram systems all over the world were being run at a loss, because there was a transition stage through which they were passing. Motor 'bus traction was out of the question. The wear and tflar of 'buses on roads was terrific, and the roads soon broke up under the 'buses. Who would maintain the roads? The ratepayers would do it for the benefit of the" motor 'bus owners. Auckland had a loss on the motor 'buses, and a profit on the trams. Would they support the local electrical industry or the American Oil Trust through buying petrol for the 'buses? If they did not support the electrical p'.ant, tliey would have to pay. a heavy rate. They would be failing in. their'duty to their town if they did not support the consumption of their own electricity. By putting the cars on at night for charging the Diesel engines cost less to run than if they had no load. Because of that they had really got the electricity for nothing. The fact that the Power' Board had taken over the power house did not matter, for the ratepayers were the same. (Applause.) The Gisborne trams had lost less than £3OOO, but if Mr. Todd and Mr. Burnard had their way it would soon ■' ba up to £20,000. (Loud laughter.) It had been increasing at each meeting. The promoters of the scrapping proposals had overlooked the fact that Parliament was legislating to give local bodies thg power to control the whole of the traffic in their district. Yon could not cater for city fratiic properly with

motor 'buses. Thev should complete the - tmm system by taking it to Mangapnpa and the racecourse. (Applause.)

EXTENSIONS URGED

They could put the trams right out to the course, and the racing people themselves would pa\- for the extension in to the course. Mr. Burnard had said *** that the trams did not go to Matigapapa. Whose fault was that? , A voice:: Lysnar's. (Laughter.) Continuing, Mr Lysnar said that they should tell Mr. Burnard and Mr. Todd that thev were responsible for the trouble. * Mr. Todd was always looking for difficulties. A voice: He's got nothing else to do. (Laughter.) Continuing, Mr. Lysnar said that there was no place in New Zealand that was losincr as little from its trams as Gisborne. That due to the fact that the*system was self-contained. For the time being they could put aside the suggested loss* of £6OOO a year. Let them take the report of Messrs VV. IT. Irvine and C. A. Smith. Thai showed that the loss for three years was £1244, excluding depreciation, sinking fnnd and interest. That meant thai they were losing only C4OO odd a. year. The eourieil was responsible for llml loss because the tramway system had never had a chance. What was a loss of £414 a year when the v were helping the pool mail to (jet in and out of town. It was farcical to talk of depreciation to intclli gent people such as" were present that evening. (Applause.) During the last, V fiYd months the trams had made over £SOO on the working expenses. Mr. Todd: You've fallen in there. Mr. Lysnar: You have a credit of £364- from last year. Mr. Burnard: Take it off, I hen. Mr Lysnar: Ho says take it off. Oh. I could give him a retort to that, but i perhaps I'd better not. (Loud laugh- , ter.) p. LOSS IN GISBORNE. Continuing, the speaker said that if he had fallen in the Town Clerk had eiven him false futures, and he wouldn t do that Thoso figures had come before the council last meeting

The Mayor: No: they are to come up next meeting. A similar statement had been made every month. Mr. Todd: Those figures are different from last month's returns. The Mayor said that he had asked Mr. Todd lo keep quiet. Questions would he allowed at the end of the meeting, and he wanted a fair hearing.given to the speaker. Continuing, ..Mr. Lysnar said that if Mr. Todd thought the figures wrong, let him say so Mr. Todd: I do. A voice: Oh, you'll be outski next year. (Loud laughter.) Mr. Lysnar said that the trams were running at a loss when interest and sinking fund wtfrc taken into consideration. They would continue to do so until the system was extended. A system that had survived the criticism that had been levelled at the Gisborne trams must lie pretty sound. The trams had always kept going, and a system that did that could not be scoffed at. Prior to the institution of the Ounond road service it had been said that the trains would not. go up the vise, but they had gone up every time. From Grey street to the end of the line and on Ormond road the tram line was taking most of (he traffic, and yet the trams were being charged 25 per cent, of (lie maintenance. . If 'buses were substituted it would cost (hem more for maintenance. Mr. Todd had said that if they put Gladstone road down in hot mix it. would stand the 'busefc. lie was going to have a wonderful hot mix road. Look at the Makaraka road. It was breaking up now. A voice : Concrete would stand them. Another voice: What about Ptlel street bridge? MELBOURNE TRAM LOSSES. Continuing, the speaker said that in Melbourne the trams had lost £50,000, hut, there they had more pluck than to suggest scrapping (hem. It look three 'buses (o carry as many passengers as one tram. If the ratepayers wanted heavier rates they would votfl out the trams and substitute 'buses. In Christchurch they bad lost C4OOO on 'buses last year alone. Melbourne had replaced its cable trains wilh electric trains instead of 'buses. lie wanted to tell the business people thai if they had 'buses tn*. town would go back. If Mr. Todd had trnnhUl )„ 0K U}l accountancy 'aw he would have seen that there wore a number of things where depreciation did not need to be considered, trams being one of them. The track was deemed to last for all time, and if it was not maintained they had to blame the councillors. Theirs was an_idle, foolish, and childish argument. (Laughter.) There was no need to take depreciation into account. The. only thing they had to lake into account was the sinking fund. The conn cillors were allowing depreciation at five per cent., but even taking them at their word (Lev lost, only £3OOO a year. On tho other hand, if Ihe trams were scrapped they lost the whole £58,000, so the councillors stood condemned on llieii own arguments. A voice : If will never be done. Mr. Lysnar said that Mr. Todd and Mr. Burnard changed (heir figures so rapidly that, he foi one could not undeistand them. Whether the ratepayers voted the trams in or oul they had lo pay £2042 in interest and sinking fund every year. A voice : We can afford it MB. LYSNAB'S OFFER, Continuing, the speaker said that he knew the ratepayers would see that the trams were not scrapped. It had been said that it would cost U 25.000 to relay the tram track in Gladstone road, but he refused to believe that figure. A few years ago he had offered to take the trains over, carry the line to Manua papa and Waintii beach, ami he would undertake to indemnify the council against loss for three years. The council had not allowed him to do that, he cause they didn't want him to show them how it could be done. The council absolutely refused lo meet him. He knew what he was talking about when he made the offer, and he still knew what ho was talking about. By voting for the trams they would ease their rates and assist the district. If they put the trams out they would find that the fares would go up. As a rebuttal to. the statements made about the roads by Mr, Todd he would draw their attention to a report madd by Mr. Black. That had advised having trackless trains, but they had thrown it out because, the roads would not stand them. It had been said that the rails were no good, hut any one who said that, should go and get his head read. Had anyone in the room known of an accident because of the rails? Those rails were Bibs heavier than the railway lines Mr. 'Todd had said that, they should be scrapped, but his advice was to scrap Mr. Todd first. (Laughter.) No service would provide the ratepayers with better facilities than the battery .system of trains. He hoped lie had not comrt to Cisborne in vain. He was sure (hat. when the numbers went up the result would he satisfactory. lie had a motor car, but he liked to feel that the people without cars had the best available facilities. (Applause.) QUESTION TIME.

As soon as question tiime came round Mr. T. Todd rose and determinedly sought ©nlightment on several of the remarks that had been made by the speaker. Mr. Todd : Did Mr, Lysnar say that (lie Diesel engines would consume less fuel running "on half a load than no load. Mr. Lysnar: Yes. Some load is hot ter than no load al all. Mr. Todd: Mr. Rnswell disagrees with yon. Mr. Lysnar: He's entitled fo his opinion. Mr. "Doyle: Thai's neither lure nor there, anyway. Mr. Lysnar: I remember a report which said that a small load made the running more economical. Mr. Todd: Did Mr. Lysnar state that you could get 90 per cent, out of the batteries? Mr. Lysnar: My good fellow, you can get 100 per cent, out of them. (Applause). I had Mr. Edison's guarantee to get 90 per cetit. Mr. Todd: Mr. Harris claimed 60 per cent., and our engineer says ho only gets 57 per cent. Mr. Lysnar: The batteries were given a three years' guarantee, hut after six years they were giving 100 per cent, efficiency, Mr. Todd: What is the present cost of metal jo the borough? Mr. Lysnar: 1 don't know. That's a question'for the Mayor, and anyway you should know that. (Laughter.) The Mayor: We have come hereto dis cuss the trams, and now Mr. Todd is Irving to draw a red herring across the scent! (Laughter and applause.) Mr. Todd :' II is because 1 know the cost of the metal and because you gave out a, misleading statement when Mr. Lysnar asked you, that 1 now put the question. You said that the metal cost 25s a yard. The mayor: It costs somewhere about 17s a vard. <>. Todd : Then why did you tell Mr. Lysnar that it. cost 25s a yard? The Mayor: I didn't say il was costin.■ that now. i

.Mr. (I. K. Pasley then proposed the following resolution : "Thai this meeting, after having considered all the information available, strougiy objects to the scrapping of dm tiarns. and urges all ratepayers to uo to the poll on Friday and vote for their colliinuanee." The motion was put to the meeting, but it. was impossible to 'tell whether it was carried or not. there being applause, boohs and cat calls nil inleifhixed, both for the allirmative ami the negative. A vote of IhanTOi'to the chair concluded the meeting.