MUNICIPAL TRAMS.

Poverty Bay Herald, Volume XXXVIII, Issue 12587, 18 October 1911, Page 9

MUNICIPAL TRAMS.

• NTORAfiK BATTKRY CARS. ' • The question of adopting the Edison storage battery cars for the Gisborne tramway system was again the .subject of a lengthy discussion at the Borough Council last night, when a lively debate occupying two anJ a half hours took place. The niatter arose from the following'communications: — The Federal Battery Car Company. Xew Jersey, cabled on October 9: "Referring to your letter of 15th July that was unavoidably delayed. Training our expert, under- "whose supervision' cars will be installed at our expense. The expense of alteration will be 676 dollHrs per car. Do you confirm ?"' To this'the Council replied : "Are we to; understand 675 dollars must be m addition to 6500 dollars?'" The Federal Battery Car- Company replied :' ' ?oii account of batteries, motors, brakes/accessories, chimney,' the arrioiint will be increased to -7175 dollars (about £;495) ; " Ct\ Darton asked for the minute regarding the ordering of the cars. CV Collins read the minute, •■..which stated that, the cars were to be ordered m terms of the contract obtained by Mr Lysnar. ' '•.«.. ■ Ci* Darton asked s'that/,;5 ' that/,; it be. explained hb\v 'the alterations-came about/ The Mayor : It wag . not • ihihute'd. . (& BrbWn .explained th^tti... he. was one of:thet6ortmiittee/^lppbiht^'io^sfeS^o..the cabling for the cars, on the' specifications plaped before tlie ".Council. Next morii--Iri s ;; (Jiily 12) i-, it \Vas,foitnd that alt/eratiohs >v6re ; n^c-e_ssarv m. contiectidh \vith.thfe- poweV of ihe -cars-' ana they got <is. l'nany 'of ;the Cbuncilloi's togethel- ,Ms possible to agree to tlie a Iterations!' They knew" that, that meant extra money. ..:.' Cr C6llins said' what Cl* Brovvn .said jyas qtu'te; right. . ; He wa.< oiife as^ked to go^alorig to the special meeting, 'but he refused, owing to his objections to ordering. f he cars at all. ( • The fcrigiiieer explained that', it was necessary to alter the specifications^ increasing the power from a 5-horse-power axle-"tb a- 10-' horse-power axJe; and increasing .the number of batteries and the size of the cells. There was one clause ill the specifications which he still.disagreed with., and that was the "pay as you entei'*' system, which wasrecommelulotl by. Mr v Lysnar, but had. been found to be unworkable on the section system of paying. [n reply to Cr Collins, the Engineer said they had the assurance of Mr Lyshar that he had taken the specifications to Wellington, and Mr Holmes was satisfied with them. Cr Collins : But they wero not m accordance with the Government demands. The Mayor said . the Chief Engineer had insisted on the alterations referred to. . ■ ;Cr Bright:. I understand the Council gave the company n . margin of 10C0 dollars foi'.any alterations required. Cr Darton pointed out that the company was claiming an extra 675 dollars per car for the extras, which would cost another 30 per "c'e.nt. for duty. The position was that the contract they, had agreed to enter into had not been accepted 'by the-' : 'Storage Battery Company. They were wanting the Council to make a new contract at an increased price. The cars now would cost nearly £2000 each. The cars cost £1410 m America, and there was £60 freight and £500 duty. He was opposed to the cars at £1410, and would be at the increased price. He thought m the light of all the expert information they had had of the unsuitableness of the cars, they .now had a' final chance of getting out* of it. Of course, the Council had signed the conti'act and was prepared to abide by the original, contract, but he considered the Council was perfectly free, and moved that they do not, sign the new contract for the extra amount. Th« "Mayor suggested that the motion be 'put that the cable be confirmed, and then leave it for Councillors to vote either for it or against it. Cr Darton : , I have moved that the cable be not confirmed. Qr Bright seconded the motion. He said it always seemed, to him that the Council had undertaken a; most dangerous experiment , m , ordering these cars, which, so far as one 1 could hear, had not been generally Adopted anywhere ; but it had been left to one of the smallest boroughs, which had the nerve to consider, a tramway system,, to adopt the experimental j system*" of 'motive £power; The voting papers stated that four cars were ,to be obtained, and they had only ordered two, and two were no earthly use to them. v - Cr Brown : We might order ten. Cr Bright : Where are you going to get the money from? ■:'".' : Cr Brown : That's all right. - Cr Bright A pointed out that they had no money for more cai's. He hoped that the. Ctouncil'; would now take the chance, which he, hardly expected they j would get, ;. and"'- "hoped that wiser counsels would prevail, and that they would refuse to pay the excess price. The Mayor pointed out that m his opinion the increase in -'price did not cancel the contract. Cr-Darton: No. — V Or 'Bright : If they supply at bur price. ■ The • Mayor : We have given them a contract," and asked them to fulfil it with certain extras. Cr Bright : And you laid down, a limit for/ the extras!;"'' Cr Brown.: -How was it possible to lay down the % price for the extras? ' i'Ph'e'Ma^or'said when>they ordered the extras "tliey added the extra money to the price.- '• . 2:-( • '>'""•. Cr Bright : : You' limited your alterations. ."'■•■ - 1 , ' ■ ■ The Mayor : ,- 3 W.«,xlid to a pertain extent. Whjle. .we thought that 10Q0 dollars would ".do, they say it will take another ,670 dollars. If we do not confirm thatV;l do not know, what claim there could be upon us. Cr Bright :; 'SuppUsing .^hey ; «»i4 it would^p.^t. £6000 iiiore, U'QuJd we still be bound V'\. . .'-,.' The Mayor : I do not say we would. He said he would like to hear what the more practical men on" the .Council -had to say on the subject. He. was not quite sure, of the legal position they wei<e placed in,i and'pioved as an amendment tha,t 'the: . Council, agiee to, pay' the 675 dollars per. car exti;a., , , ... ' , \ . Gr Darton thought that '"was" a direct negative) arid' ; the r Maybro'said\he was willing to leave, it at that, and vote against the "motion^. 1 '• v ' Cr Collins said ' ( he \ looked upon Cr Darton's motion a?, an extremely dan-. g^uV'prei^derit!' :^;aefr'iilSp. l "' i There Sye're s6m6" CbtincHloi's' "'bouild^tb support B^ach' Batteiy Cars. He did'not vote.' Either Cr Darton was asking theseCouncillors who supported the cars to confirm the : position m xegard sto the / matter', or give them a- chance to " get out of it. The Councillors who voted for the cars must re-confirm the contract. Cr Collins •pointed otnV-tltat the J3hgi-neer-in-Chief had demanded alterations in > the,' specifications, and now the company Vv^s' demanding nYore money. 'He waH going '<\tor vote against the . Beach cars. (Cr Bright: Hear, hear.')" He disapproved" of ■ them, and always had. The voting paper ptipu'la'ted for four cars, and the-. Council had the audacity to order two - cars for an experiment with the- ratepayers' money. The' carp ; had been adopted because the majority of the would not listen to the objections, -And they had placed the Council \ in a muddle. They.hadjno hope -of carrying -the tramway;. Joan, .and he doubted, whether they would carry the loan for'the. .eleqtvic light. Cr Darton : And yet you voted for seven *miles of line.

Of Collins .'Yes, because , of the equal* ity of expenditure. Continuing, ' he said they .would be lucky if> they gob the- cars running m three, years. The total expenditure on the tramway up to the present waf« -••£10,841' 25;5d.! ' i

The Mayor : And we have got -nil our rails.

Cr Collins : Pardon me, we haye got seven ' miles of rails and four miles of iishplates and accessories, and for the other three miles' or*' fishplates and ac( cesgdries yj.ii will have to- go for another loan.

•Cr Bright pointed out. that the cost of ths cava had to be added, making the total- about £13,000— : ; ' ■ ";: " .." Or Collinp 'safd' theY woiilld ' require' at leaßt another £15,00(1 Joan to' catrV oit<? the 'seven miles of tramway in their en-' tirety. "Arid we have no hope" what-

I cvor, sis far ;is T can judge, of gctliny that Joan passed. When they considered what the majority s of the Council we.iv pledged, .to,, and. tlie^ticts, given v ,he did not see how they could be' asked' to cdii ljrni the cable, Ciy Dartou had given them a. .loophole for escape. Fie wa« going to vote' that the cable be not con firmed ' whatever the consequence mvjhl be. He hoped they could come to sonic arrangement', 'and' see: if it was not possible to obviate getting "those useless cars out liei'e." He. blamed the past' administration for the muddle. If it was found that the contract must be gone; on with, he would give his assistance m carrying the matter, through. t Or Brown said he had heard nothing to make him alter his opinion. . He would ask- those Councillors flourishing figures about what oth'.ei* -cars would cost. Even if the battery cars did cost more •■ they were doing away' with overhead wires which w,as a' big item, and it was for that reason" that the practical menj on the Council supported the cars. Jt. was no dangerous experiment' after ifl l, If. they did 'not ,%p iii '.for. them, \vha< were they going to do ?'. ' .' ! 'Or Darton -'''What about steam? ; . Or Brown: If: you are going hi foi fcteain" they;' are 'tVie best of the lot. There is no other: power ( wheh \stean< is about. ■-'•'■'■■■■ ' ' ■ Or • Barton': Hear, hear. Cr Brown : But that is not before 115 to-hight,!; . ".'. ..'..'. , „,. "';'.. cClrS^ith said .his opihioh _waS that M\ contract, was ' still -jntact;. 'The Coiinc;.. seht^ for certain and no prie: waa stated ,\yhit .the dxtrds would cost th'erefoi'e they .had lib indioation- wKn! the ; cars wer6 going to cost. The Cour. oil /was still bpuitd by the contract, aiu if they' were so foolish as' to carry ; motion trying to get ' out of it. the; would find themselves m a greatc muddle' than Cv Collins seemed to thini they were m. Or I>art6n : Tlie motion is not to-r lease the contract. Or Smith said the contract they sig:. Ed 'specified liattery cars, wit! certain alterations. ■ ■ , Cr Bright referred to it letter writtcV by Ml Lysniti- to the company oYi Jul« 2ist, referring to .the alterations reqiiii. ed-- andr ehcltteing" a report from Al Holmes, and strfting :" "It is probah!. that you are 1 providing for the variov: particulars he stipulates. jEven if. yp. are not, they should be provided . an should this entail any substantial exti cost, )> before.' actually doiftg the ' wor send a. cable stating the ekti'a ,cost| an; if the Council apprpyes of the extra co: we wifl'co,ble you to that effect." ( Bright' said ".that >'was the- "whole pom. did they 'avpprove? ' ' / Tlie-Ma^ol- said 'fliere 'was n6thing i. that letter "to make him alter his .opinion v Or Smith thought that the extra co? asked : for fair and : veasonabl •for the alterations the Council requires He had read all reports about the car.-; He had ; .seen reports m favor of:tli cars, but they had not been' made ver public. In fact, a battery was to 1 exhibited; at the Olympic Exhibition If the thing was only m its experiment:, stage, Mr Edison was not going,, to nrnk a laughing stock of himself by s?endir., the thing.fto London. ; ■•/ . Cr"!]>arton': He is not sending a car. Ci* Smith : I 1 know that, but he i fiend ing the battery, which is the chic, element about the car. He was m favo; ..of' the' cars. If they did turn out tlifailure that some Councillors ex]>ecte<: they would use them for trailers. Cr Collins: At £2000 each ? Cr Smith: Yes. ; . ' ,■ Eeplying. Cr ■'' li'artdn' pointed oiit t'hiii his motion did ! not -mean the cancellin;. of the contract. He said the Borougl Engineer told the Council the cars o. the original specifications ' would nc start. Cr Brown : He, never said anything r. the kind. After a passage-at-arnfs between Cr; Brown and Darton, the Plngineer state he said the cars would not accelerate. Continuing, Cr Darton said the Cour. oil ' had an opportunity of saying the would not confirm the extra expend itim Had the Councillors known the cars would cost £4000 they would have con sidered the matter before spending th ratepayers 1 money on an .experiment >He said that the Council's original cor. tract was 130 D dollars per car, and nov the company wanted to make a new contract. Cr Bright : They don't recognise an;, contract. \ . i; < Cr Darton: Quite Bb. The Bead' Company have not signed any contract. The Mayor : And yet you say we arc bound by the old contract. Cr Darton: They lm vo not signed it; if they, do, they will have to supply tin cars at 1300 dollars. ' Cr Dartdn's motion was lost, Ctr Dar ton, Collins, Bright, and Wade voting for, and the Mayor 1 and Crs Smith. Wildish, Brown, and' Sawyer against.'' ■' The Maydr then moved that the cabk be confirmed. He thought that if 1 company such as the Beach Oompan^ could have carried out': the contract without extra cost /would have done so. It was no try on. His opinion was that the best thing they could d< was to go m for the Edison . cars. It was only, a beginning m ordering tw( cars: 1 The Cotthcillbrs opposing the car were only carrying out a policy of oh struction.- They had not placed any other system before the Council. s ' . Cr 'Collins : We never had an oppor .tunity of doing so. ' The Mayor: You have, had plenty ■ o! opportunities. •* ■■ . Cr Collins: When? 1 ' ■ The Mayor : We are not going int< that now. He said it had been quit< open for 'Councillors to bring forward some other system. The only practical move ever to come before the Council was .; that the Beach cars should b< adopted. , Or Smith, m seconding the motion, said the company was not trying ti "have" a little place like; Uisborne. It was/ riot 'likely -that such a company would send out a 'car if it was a failure. Cr Brown supported- "'•the, motion. Hv pointed out that thei'e were som? people who would, condemn the Diesel engines just the 'same as some CouncilIqi's were condemning the storage bat ■tery cars. . v Cr did not'thiuk the position was so serious as made out. If thr wofst came to the worst they coiild easily instal petrol. engines into the cars. In reply.-, to Or Bright, the . Engineer said he did riot think the cars' that hail been ordered' would pay. -They were too small. If they ; h«d' cars to carry i4O passengers they might make sufficient to " pay for axle ■ greasfe. v ' « Or Smith: I don't see how the Engi•ne'^r can' makd .aochi a, 'tftatement.U Ho^v does he ktriow , what .'the population i? going to do with the cars. : The Engineer explained that he ha<l studied the population question. Cr Bright 'untimated tKat hW would move an amendment. It was evident that thie traffic 'point, of view" had never been considersed by ..the;. • Council/ They had an opportunity, of paying, they wero not prepared to ' increase their contract price. They could;, see that the seven miles of line withwfqur cars which the ratepayers authorised- could not be completed for anything like £25,000. They were m a' po^itiQiVlto .call a /Halt- arijdi hear what Mr ,Metcalfe's opinion was, and wWat exti-a,' amount of monoy was required to cQmplet^ith^.workj .and then ; plaijfe 1 the* voting papep ;ii|' frpnt of ' p}&\ ratepayer^; l and,' jask theml'f . they wrii'e-: pupated tor'ffij , iii; for^the . f^ita, edst.;' He m'dyed that 'ihe 'soh'ipit'o^s opiniorf be obtained as to Ayiiat.was the Council's position with regard 'to the contract; whether, they ; were' .bound ?r not ? ; t Cv 'Cdllins, Jii;' sec^ridfrig; ' or B.W'ght's. amendment, said the Mayor's statement, that the Councillors had not broiight foiward any other scheme was ijnfair. When the question, : .wa^i : first considered saveral systems were m^ntj<>ried,; but the storage battery^ fyste'rn, ''ha^^^^been. pushed forward. The Council could riot be' asked to vote,, lor two cars; which, the Engineer said had "dt. sufficient passeh-, ger .accommp^atiori It was not ,a question as ..to whether tlje, chits wei'p ;0failure, "but as i to whether a better, systeni cdulti te installed/ *rhey : should have' 'an -opiibrtunity" of : reyiiawin^ the' other systems m order that' the best value' fcoilld 1 obtained, for the money.

The Mayor pointed out that the question before the Council was to 'refer the position" to^the solicitor^ not' the merits of different, systems..

■ Cr Darton supported the. amendment. ' He /said the ariieridmeht didu not-mean ■hanging up ■■■tire* trams; The:- Order-in-Cbuncil for the seven- miles of track was -going vto hang 1173 the work. ' He intended giving a notice of motion every meeting tor the four miles. = CV Wildish supported thb:amoiVd'm v ent! because" he Avanted to wait until -Mr Metcalfe's repbi-t was obtained. Or ,Wade said he did 1 not feel justified iit voting 1 fox» fanv eitra cost of £1000. He did not 'geeUi6\v;twb cars would pay with a -holding capacity of 25 passengers each. ( -''•'• • The' Mayor,' ''in ; replying, said Cr. IJrfgM's yameridm'ent was a 'reasonable one. ancl probably : that was why Some of the . ne.\\-- •■Councillors were supporting it," but if there" was a~ question whether they - wei'e doing, something illegal it would be all right. He did not see the necessity of Preferring the matter to the solicitor. The cars would carry more than 25 'passengers* • : " Cr Darton : LJp to 32. The said if the two cars did not realise. 'their'- expectations, they could easily be converted into another System. The Mayor, concluding, said he "would I be quite satisfied if the majority of the Council favored referring the- matter to the solicitors,, and. although he did not think -it n'eces'sar^^he would bow to,: the decision of the majority. . ; (Hear,., hear.) The . amendment was carriedj Crs Bright, .W.ildish, Darton/ Collifls, ond Wade .voting, -for, and the Mayor and Crs Smith, .Sawyer, and, Brown . against. j THE LENGTH OF LINE. Or Darton said he would give notice of motion to rescind the resolution to get an Order-in-Council for se^ven miles of line, with, a view of getting an U'rder-in-Council for four miles. Cr Bright :- It won't be m order. Or Darton: Why? ... The, '. Mayor-: ('.Because the* Council has already, decided *• the. matter.Cr Darton : Why cannot, l put m such a motion to rescind? • The Mayor : Because the Council has already thrown out a motion for four miles. V. •■'•■ ' „.; ' ' Cr Darton': How long have I got to wait befote. giving notice of motion? ThJ3 Mflyoi' said he d id not know. Cr ' Smith suggested, .^hat Ci Darton tnake his mdtibn-, tix read' thiSt m view of the possibility of .the bridges having to be reinstated^ the Coiincil proceetl with . an". Oflder-i,ii-Counci| for four miles, and mentSidh the district. That would be m order. Or Darton said .._ he would „move, move that -an .-Qrder-ijj-Councjr be applied' fpr for a ljHe, from the .Pdst- Office to.' the Park. The 'Mayor : I' don't, think J ani called upon to' give, a ruling now. ' Cr Darton said he would confer with the Mayor, and see what kind of notice of motion he oouldfgiv«.-.v: