THE WEEK IN PARLIAMENT.

Otago Witness, Issue 3994, 30 September 1930, Page 20

THE WEEK IN PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

WELLINGTON, September 23. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. UNEMPLOYMENT BILL.

In moving the committal of the Unemployment Bill, the Acting Leadei- of the Council (Mr R. Masters) said the Bill might not be perfect, but he was sure every member would be sincerely desirous of helping to relieve the unemployment problem. Unemployment was a national responsibility, and called for the serious consideration of everybody. The Bill would make for a more scientific distribution of the load on the taxpayer. New Zealand had a great deal of seasonal employment, and that had aggravated the .position as had the introduction of machinery and the drop which had taken place in the value of the country’s produce. The amount of the levy was not nearly as large as that provided for in the Australian States and elsewhere. No one would receive sustenance as a right, and in that respect the legislation differed from that of other countries. It had to be remembered that New Zealand was already paying out large amounts in sustenance through charitable aid boards. Mr W. Earnshaw moved as an amendment—“ That the Bill should .be read after the expiry of six months.” The principles underlying the Bill were opposed to those on which the British Empire was founded. The Bill was absolutely political in character, and it was futile to say anything else. The object of the Bill was to relieve the suffering of those in need of sustenance either through their own fault or through no fault of their ,own. He had been a working man all his life, and was not opposing the Bill on political grounds, but for the reason that he knew the Bill was one of the most dangerous that could possibly be introduced into the Legislature. The dole would do nothing hut create a class of men and women who would not work. He could not understand the Reform and United Parties playing into the hands of those who believed in Marxian theories and Soviet principles. Mr Earnshaw strongly criticised the action of the Government in paying 14s on relief works. He expressed the strongest disapproval of the levy, and said the people should be given an opportunity of expressing an opinion regarding it. The amendment was seconded by Mr W. H. Triggs, who said the Bill was altogether based on wrong principles. The Government had failed to diagnose the unemployment complaint properly and to administer the right medicine. He doubted whether the board proposed under the Bill could produce the goods. Sustenance payments would have a demoralising effect on the workers. The Council adjourned at 5 p.m.

WELLINGTON, September 24. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. MAGISTRATES COURTS 81T,1..

The Magistrates Courts Amendment Bill was put through committee, and passed. UNEMPLOYMENT BILL.

Resuming the debate on the Unemployment Bill, Mr M. Fagan intimated that he would oppose Mr Earnshaw’s amendment. It would be a mistake to postpone the operation of the Bill when there was so much distress in the country. He paid a tribute to the Government for what it had done to relieve the position, but stated that at the end of two years they found themselves in a worse position. That was due to the depression through which they were passing, and he was sorry to have to say it was his opinion they had not yet reached the climax. The sooner they got a systematised method of registration the better, for until that was brought about they would not know what the actual position was. Two things were absolutely vital if they-were going to tackle the problem as it should be tackled. One was the encouragement of secondary industries and the other was the placing of more people on the land. Mr Fagan described Mr Earnshaw’s amendment as cold-blooded and inhuman, and said it was degrading to ask the Council to vote upon it. ° Mr J. B. Gow expressed the hope that Mr Fagan would not class him as an inhuman monster if he voted for the amendment. He believed the Bill did not offer the best method of dealing with the present problem. There were possibilities of mischief in it that would justify them in refusing to deal with the measure hastily. It had to be remembered that capital and labour in New Zealand were to a large extent in a strait jacket owing to the restrictions imposed by the Arbitration Court, which failed to recognise that wages must ultimately depend on production. The court falsely 'based its decisions on the belief that it was necessary to main- • tain a certain standard of living. Mr Gow said it was surely the right and the duty of every man to find a job for himself, and it “would be fatal for the State to say when a man was out of work he was entitled to receive a job at standard wages. The Government had made a serious mistake by paying standard rates bn relief works. „ They were expected to swallow the whole Bill whether they liked it or not. Mr Gow criticised the personnel of the board, w.Woh, he said, was largely political. He

objected to setting up another department of State.

Mr A. S. Malcolm said it was true that the introduction of machinery had dislocated labour, but surely it could not be suggested they should do away with it.

The debate on the Unemployment Bill was continued when the Council resumed at 8 _ p.m. by Mr Malcolm, who said that if the Council threw the Bill out it would be impossible for the Government to introduce another measure this session. He did not agree that the Bill would create the dole system, as the system was already established per medium of charitable aid boards. As a fair-minded man he realised he could not oppose the Bill. He recognised that the dole was likely to prove demoralising in effect, but he did not think there were many who would prefer it to doing an honest day’s work. If the local bodies now carrying the burden of unemployment were not afforded relief many of them would be bankrupt at the end of 12 months. . He agreed that the composition of the board might be improved. Mr G. J. Garland said that one of the most sensible suggestions which had been made was that people unemployed should receive food and clothing instead of money. He realised it was little use debating the matter at any length, as the Council had made up its mind that the Bill would go through if it were possible. He would move to amend the Bill when in committee. If the Bill went on to the Statute Book it would never come off again. The Bill was not an unemployment Bill, but a poll tax Bill.

Mr G. Witty saiu he did not like the Bill, but as it was the best proposition in sight he would vote against the amendment. It was the unemployable who were causing all the trouble in New Zealand. He was strongly opposed to the Arbitration Court, which was going too far altogether. One of the biggest mistakes which had been made was to give 14s a day for relief works.

Sir Frederick Lang said he disagreed with so much in the Bil] that he was forced to vote against it. He was opposed to youths of 20 being required to pay a levy, as it amounted to taxation without representation. He objected to the element of political control introduced into the board, and said the Minister should not be a member. The Council rose at 9.35 p.m.

WELLINGTON, September 25. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. NURSES AND MIDWIVES.

The Nurses and Midwives Registration Amendment Bill was read a second time and referred to the Statutes Revision Committee. LAND AND INCOME TAX. Amendments to the Land and Income Tax Amendment Bill in respect of the taxation of insurance companies were agreed to. UNEMPLOYMENT BILL. Resuming the debate on the Unemployment Bill, Mr R. Scott said he had a strong objection to several clauses in the Bill and would therefore vote against it. He expressed the opinion that the primary producers should have two representatives on the board. The success of the scheme would depend very largely on local committees, as it would be impossible for the board to keep in touch' with the unemployed in distant parts. Mr C. J. Carrington said the people were looking to the State z for more and more assistance every time they landed themselves in trouble. New Zealand today was lacking in leadership. It was high time they tried to encourage a spirit of self-reliance.

Mr W. H. MTntyre spoke of the value of encouraging local industries. Despite its weaknesses, he would support the Bill.

Mr D. Buddo said the idea of the dole had so got into the people’s minds that they overlooked that the Bill provided for an insurance scheme. Surely it was better to have a system of insurance than the present system of charitable aid.

Mr E. W. Allison supported the amendment, and said the passing of the Bill would be seriously detrimental to the best interests of the Dominion. He did not approve of the constitution of the board.

Mr J. A. Hanan said that never before had Parliament had before it such a baffling problem. He was supporting the Bill. A man out,of employment was in the state of mind w’hen he could very easily become infected by revolutionary ideas. Continuing at 8 o’clock, Mr Hanan said the principle involved in the Unemployment Bill was not new. He defended the composition of the ooard, and said there was ample justification for the inclusion of a Minister of the Crown.

Mr L. M. Isitt said he saw in the Bill certain things which he did not like, but he had no hesitation in voting for the measure. However, it was not possible to frame a perfect Bill. Mr R. Moore expressed the opinion that the Council was justified in throwing out the Bill as it would only create fresh evils.

Replying to the debate, "the Acting Leader of the Council (Mr R. Masters) said the Bill had gone through the House without a division. He defended the constitution of the board, and said it was better for the State to find work for the workless than to provide charitable aid for those who were unable to find work.

A division was reached at 10.15 p.m., and resulted in the defeat of Mr Earnshaw’s amendment hy 20 votes to 9.

The division list is as follows: —- For the Bill (20)» Allen Hawke Bell Isitt Buddo M'Callum Carrington M'Gregor Clark Masters Collins Smith Fagan Stevenson Hall-Jones Trevithick Hanan Witty *Two names were omitted from the telegraphed report. Against the Bill (9). Alison Moore Earnshaw Scott Fleming Snodgrass Gow Triggs Lang The Council adjourned at 10.20 p.m.

WELLINGTON, September 26. Tlie Council met at 2.30 p.m. RESPONSIBILITY FOR MOTOR ACCIDENTS.

Replying to Mr M’Callum, the Acting Leader of the Council (Mr R. Masters) stated: “ Under the present law in New Zealand, which is considered just and reasonable, the onus of avoiding a motor accident oj the public highways lies equally on all parties likely to be involved in such accident. It is understood that in England under the same law which applies in this country cases have been taken successfully by motorists against negligent pedestrians who involved motorists in accidents. The in'requency of such cases is, of course, accounted for by the fact that the pedestrian is generally the chief ufferer in there accidents.” UNEMPLOYMENT BILL.

The Council went into committee on the Unemployment Bill, which was put through all its stages and passed without amendment.

The Council rose at 4.40 p.m. until Tuesday.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

WELLINGTON, September 23. The House met at 2.30 p.m. SUNDAY TRAINS.

Mr W. H. Field (Otaki) asked the Minister of Railways (Mr W. A. Veitch) whether it would not be possible to run Sunday trains during the summer months. Thousands of people took advantage of these trains, and. the announcement by the Minister that they were to be cut out would cause great disappointment and inconvenience. The Minister said that unfortunately the thousands of travellers mentioned by Mr Field had not materialised. The cutting out of the Sunday suburban services did not mean that the long distance Sunday trains to Otaki and Paimerston North would also be eliminated. Persons desiring to travel to the suburbs could use the trains running longer distances at ordinary fares or zone fares, whichever were the cheaper. THE PETROL TAX. The Leader of the Opposition (Mr J. G. Coates) asked the Acting Prime Minister whether a rebate would be made on petrol consumed by a motor vehicle used by local authorities for road making purposes. Mr Ransom replied that those vehicles which were previously entitled to a re fund of 4d would now automatically be entitled to a refund of Gd a gallon. RAILWAY COMMISSION’S REPORT. The Leader of the Opposition asked whether the Railway Commission would report to the Government and whether the report would be placed on the table of the House. Mr Ransom replied that the report had returned from his Excellency and had been handed to the Government. He hoped to lay it on the tabic early next week. UNEMPLOYMENT RELIEF. Mr M. J. Savage (Auckland West) asked the Acting “Leader of the House if he would take immediate steps to alleviate unemployment in Auckland. He read a telegram from an officer of the Hospital Board stating inter alia that the position was becoming moie acute than ever and applicants for relief were getting notice from landlords to vacate houses.

Mr Ransom said that arrangements were now in hand to place a large number of men in Auckland. He regretted that the position generally was still serious, but the scheme the Government had in view would offer some relief. LOCAL BODY BILLS.

The following Bills were reported from the Local Bills Committee with the recommendation that they should be allowed to proceed with amendments:— Napier Harbour Board Loans Enabling Bill, Clutha River Board Empowering Bill, Auckland City and Motuihi Empowering Bill, Western Access Empowering Bill, Auckland Provincial Water Board Bill, and Wellington City and Suburban Water Supply Amendment Bill.

A division was taken on the amendment to refer the Western Access Empowering Bill (a Wellington measure) back to the committee for further consideration. It was pointed out by members that it was desirable that the committee should hear the evidence of additional witnesses.—The amendment was carried by 32 votes to 25. There was also a debate on the amendment to refer the Auckland Provincial

Water Board Bill back to the committee for further consideration, members supporting the amendment contending that the measure was' unnecessary.—The amendment was rejected by 44 votes to 12. , DENTISTS’ AMENDMENT BILL. The .Dentists’ Amendment Bill was introduced by Governor-General’s message. The Minister of Health (Mr A. J. Stallworthy), replying to Mr Coates, stated that the Bill had two objects—to purge the register of dentists and to bring the dental profession into line with the medical and other professions by giving it an executive head in the form of a Dental Council. The Bill was read a first time. LAND AND INCOME TAX.

Amendments to the Land and Income Tax Amendment Act, 1930, were also introduced by Governor-General’s message and were read a first time. Mr Ransom said the amendments were intended to give effect to the Prime Minister’s promise with respect to the taxation of foreign life insurance companies. One amendment constituted a clearer definition of profits without making any alteration in the intention of the original Act. The other amendment was the outcome of the Prime Minister’s pi omise that he would receive a deputation representative of the insurance companies. In response to the deputation’s request a new clause would be added to the Act providing that income tax on companies would be assessable at nine-twentieths instead of one-half the ordinary rate. This would involve a concession of £12,000 in taxation.

NURSES AND MIDWIVES REGISTRATION.

On the motion of Mr Ransom urgency was accorded the passage of the Nurses’ and Midwives’ Registration Amendment Bill which was thereupon considered in committee.

Mr J. A. Young (Hamilton) contended that it would be unfair to include a representative of the hospital boards on the Nurses’ and Midwives’ Registration Board unless another representative of the nurses were included. At present there were five members of the board, including only two nominated by those who could speak on behalf of the nursing profession. If the amendment were adopted the balance of the board would be upset. He urged that if the Minister were determined to go on with the amendment he should also make provision for the inclusion of three representatives of the nursing profession. He believed control should be in the hands of the profession. Mr- Fraser said that while Mr Young had pointed out that there would be an alteration in the representation on the board, he had failed to show that there would be any terrible consequences from such alteration.

Mr H. M. Rushworth (Bay of Islands) said the only criticism he wished to level at the Bill was the failure to define what was an “ adequate charge ” with respect to the beds in private hospitals available to the public. Mr W. E. Barnard (Napier) suggested that it might be left to the board to determine what should be regarded as an inadequate charge. Mr A. Harris (Waitemata) asked whether medical fees would be included under the definition “inadequate charge.” Mr Stallworthy said that medical fees were not included.

Mr Harris declared that this was a departure from the original intention. The Bill would simply enable doctors to’ place patients in private hospitals and charge them what they liked. He said he intended when the clause was reached to move an amendment providing that a fee of, say, four guineas per week should be inclusive of everything. Mr H. E. Holland said medical fees were paid in private hospitals at the present time. The object of the Bill was to enable nurses to receive training in suitable private hospitals. The short title having been passed, Mr Harris moved that the clause dealing with the conditions subject to which hospitals or other institutions might be approved as training schools for nurses should be so amended that 40 beds should be available at all times for occupation by patients receiving medical, nursing and hospital service without charge or for an inadequate charge, the word “ medical ” being added to the original clause. The amendment was rejected by 42 votes to 21. Mr Young moved to add to the same section of the Bill the words “ which 40 beds shall be the training school for nurses.” He said it was desirable that only beds open to the public should be recognised for training purposes. This was the system adopted in Canada. ~ Mr Young’s amendment was defeated by 47 votes to 18. '

Mr W. P. Endean (Parnell) then moved an amendment providing that the “ inadequate charge ” should n<’ be greater than the charge for the same services in a public hospital in the same district, as that in which a private hospital or institution is situated. Mr Stallworthy said that while the inadequate charge would probably be on the basis outlined in the amendment, such a practice might operate unsatisfactorily in some instances. He considered it was a. most suitable means of meeting the situation to leave the decision as to inadequate charge in the hands of the Nurses and Midwives’ Registration Board.

After further discussion Mr Stallworthy intimated that he would be prepared to meet the wishes of the House and insert some amendment dealing with inadequate

charge when the Bill was before the Legislative Council.

Mr Endean’s amendment was defeated by 41 votes to 22. Mr Young .moved a further amende ment stipulating that before any instir tution was recognised as a training school, the board should satisfy itself that the reciprocal arrangements with England would not be prejudiced in con? sequence of such recognition. The amendment was defeated by 44 votes to 19, and the clause was passed. . A division was taken on the clause giving private hospitals the right to appeal to the Supreme Court against the board’s refusal to grant approval as a. training school. The clause was retained by 51 votes to 10.

A new clause appointing a represent tative of the Hospital Board to the Registration Board was passed. The Minister agreed to make provision at the latest stage for an additional represent tative of the nurses to restore the former balance of power. The comt mittee stage was completed. Following a long debate, the Bill wa§ read a third time and passed.

The House met at 2.30 p.m. MONDAY SITTINGS.

The Acting-Prime Minister (Mr E. A. Ransom) moved that the House should meet at 2.30 p.m. on Mondays for the remainder of the session. Replying to questions asked by the Leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the Labour Party he said the object of the motion was to bring about the close of the session within a reasonable period. Re hoped the business would be completed not later than October IL The motion was adopted. THE ESTIMATES. The Acting-Prime Minister moved that urgency should be accorded the passage of a number of classes in the Estimates, including Railways, Labour, and Commerce and Internal Affairs. The Leader of the Labour Party (Mr H. E. Holland) said it appeared there was nothing to be gained by the suspem sion of the Standing Orders. The House had had a late sitting the previous day and it ought to be able to do its work within reasonable hours. A division was taken, the motion being adopted bv 51 votes to IG. or j

The House then went into Committee. of-Supply, and consideration of the vote of £6,3/8,003 for the working Railways account was resumed.

Replying to questions raised by menu bers. the Minister of Railways (Mr W, A. Veitch) said that the Garratt engines were still in the experimental stage. A great deal of money had been expended on them and he would not like to take the responsibility of scrapping them. An earnest endeavour was being made to make them successful. With regard to Diesel engines an officer who had been sent abroad had reported that they, too, were in the experimental stage, and it would not be advisable at the present time to expend a great deal of money on them. This advice had been accepted, lhe reason for the curtailment of Sunday services had been the heavy losses. Hie attempt to meet the situation by increasing the fares had only resulted in making matters worse. Replying to Mr A. E. Ansell (Chaimers) the Minister stated that the gi eatest attention was being given to warning devices at railway crossings. The estimate was passed. ° Consideration of the vote of £56,871 for the Labour Department was resumed. The amendment moved by Mr H. E. Holland when the estimate was previously under consideration calling for a reduction of the vote by £lO as a protest against the estimate being submitted to the House before the report of the department was presented was defeated on the voices.

The Minister of Labour (Mr S. G. Smith) said that during the short period he had been Minister ’ a had looked into a large number of cases in which it was claimed there had been breaches of awards. In many instances it had transpired that there was difficulty in getting evidence to support such complaints. Replying to Mr Samuel he said that the Labour Department was only the recording office for the unemployed. It could not create work for men. With reference to the point raised by Mr Sullivan he said the matter of the special Unemployment Committee’s interim reports, etc., was one for the Leader of the House.

Mr M. J. Savage (Auckland West) moved that the sum be reduced by £5 as an indication that definite proposals for the employment of all those willing to work should be brought before the House before Parliament rises. He coul i see nothing in the amendment that could not be supported by members. Unemployment demanded very earnest attention from everyone, and he was prepared to do anything except admit that the position was hopeless.

Mr Smith said the solution of the unemployment problem was not a matter for the Labour Department. There was no justification for the amendment before the House. He mentioned that in his own district (New Plymouth) all the public bodies were co-operating to deal with the problem, and the result was that there were only 41 men out of work. As an indication of the earnestness with which the Government was tackling the problem, he said that over 4000 men had be.en placed on road works on September 20.

Labour members: How many were put off?

The Minister said 100 men had left of their own accord last week to go to relief works.

Mr Savage’s amendment was rejected by 37 votes to 27, and the vote was passed. The division list on Air Savage’s amendment was as follows:— . For the Amendment (27). Ansell M'Keen Armstrong Martin Barnard Mason Carr Munro Chapman Nash, W. Fletcher O’Brien Fraser Parry Hall Samuel Holland, H. E. Savage Howard Semple Jordan Sullivan Kyle Waite Langstone Wright M’Combs - Against the Amendment (37). Atmore APDougall Eroadfoot Macpherson Burnett Alakitanara Clinkard Munns Cobbe Murdoch de la Perrelle Nash, J. A. Donald Ngata Endean Polson Field Ransom Hamilton Rushworth Harris Smith Hawke Stallworthy Healy Stewart Hogan Taverner Holland, H. Veitch Linklater Wilkinson Dye Williams Lysnar Young M'Donald

When the estimate of £279,400 for the Department of Internal Affairs was under consideration, Mr de la Perrelle. replying to Mr Fraser, said that the regulations dealing with the censorship of picture posters would be gazetted next week.

Air Jones said that during his visit to England it had been a matter for comment that he had not been invited to certain public functions. Ha had called upon the High Commissioner, but he had received no invitation to any entertainment.

Mr W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) saidohe thought there should be some explanation in a case where a member of the House made, .a definite statement of the kind. Mr P. A. de la Perrelle said he regretted the treatment that had been meted out to Mr Jones. He would make representations to the High Commissioner on the subject. The estimate was passed. WELLINGTON, September 25. The House met at 2.30 p.m. LONDON AND NEW ZEALAND BANK. The London and New Zealand Bank, Ltd., Amendment Bill (Air A. Al. Samuel) was read a third time and passed. • NATIONAL ART GALLERY. The National Art Gallery and Dominion Aluseum Bill was reported from the Lands Committee with amendments. ROTORUA-TAUPO LINE.

The A to L Public Petitions Committee, . reporting on the petition praying for the immediate resumption of work on the Rotorua-Taupo railway line, stated that it had no recommendation to make, as a question of policy was involved.

Mr A. W. Hall (Hauraki) said there had been a very even division of opinion among members of the committee which had considered this petition. Quite a large section believed that the possibilities of this line should be considered by the committee recently appointed to in vestigate all the railway lines under construction. He moved as an amendment that the report be referred back to the committee for further consideration.'•

Sir Apirana Ngata said it was possible to be an enthusiast about a settlement of pumice land, and at the same time still be restrained concerning the construction of the railway -line. The difficulty relating to settlement in the area had been the existence of bush sickness, and until that problem had been overcome the work could not be pushed ahead. The Government was experimenting with the country, and that stage had not yet been passed. For many years afforestation companies had been operating in the area, and a lot of land was already under trees. The Alinister agreed that the question of the development of the land should be fully investigated. The Acting Prime Minister (Mr E. A. Ransom) said that a promise had been given that the House would have an Opportunity to consider the report early in the session, but the business before the House then consisted of measures to be disposed pt so as to enable Air Forbes to leave for the Imperial Conference. Since the Prime Minister’s departure the Government had shown members every consideration. He had been surprised that no member had considered the report of last year’s committee of sufficient importance to raise the question until the present juncture. Air Ransom contended that the railway was not essential to the development of the country. He had not lost his confidence in the development of the pumice belt. Indeed, he believed the future prosperity of New Zealand to a large extent depended upon its development and the settlement of those portions of country offered the best solution of the unemployment problem that could be seen. He considered further that the time was not far distant when much of the country rewarded to-day as sheep and cattle sick would he.brought into production. The Government was justified in the experiments it was conducting.

After a number of other members had spoken, Air J. A. Alacpherson (Oamaru), replying, said the question before the committee had been whether it was advisable now to go on with the railway or not. There was not the slightest doubt that if at some future date it became apparent that the construction of a railway was warranted whatever Government was in power would then go on with the scheme. It certainly was not warranted at the present time. He did not see that any good purpose could I gained by referring the report back to the committee. Air Hall’s amendment was rejected by 34 votes to 33. The division list was as follows:— For the amendment (33). Ansell Alacmillan Armstrong Alartin Bu rnett Alassey Chapman Nash, J. A. Dickie Nash, W. / " Endean Parry Field Samuel Fraser Savage Had Semple Henare Stewart Holland, H. Sullivan Holland, H. E. Svkes Hunter Waite Jordan Williams Kyle Wright Linklater Young Al‘Keen Against the amendment (34). Atmore Alacpherson Barnard Alakitanara Bodkin Alason Broadfoot - Alunns Carr Alunro Clinkard Alurdoch Cobbe Ngata de la Perrelle O’Brien Donald Polson Hawke Ransom Healy Rushworth. Hogan Smith Langstone Stall worthy Lye Taverner Lysnar Veitch APDonald Ward Al'Dougall Wilkinson The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. GAAIING AMENDMENT BILL. Air K. S. Williams (Bay of Plenty), on rising to move the second reading of the Gaming Amendment Bill, was greeted with applause. He said the Bill contained only two provisions—to enable people to telegraph bets on horse racing to the secretary of the club holding the meeting and to permit the publication of dividends. It had been asserted that the Bill, if carried, would increase gambling. This, he contended, would not be so. It would only enable people to use a legalised form of betting. He quoted figures showing the number of prosecutions and convictions for bookmakers. These, he said, demonstrated that betting was going on, and it was preferable that the Government and racing clubs should get any benefit accruing from the practice. There was the business side •of racing, and that was the side which concerned the employment of jockeys and trainers. If the money continued to go into the hands of the bookmakers instead of on the totalisator it would endanger the livelihood of these men. Mr H. T. Armstrong said he believed the Bill was against the interests of true sport. He was as fond of racing as anyone else, and he liked when he could afford it to invest money on the totalisator. He claimed, however, that he already had all the facilities that he wanted to invest money on the totalisator. He could not see how the passing of legislation could possibly have the effect of decreasing transactions with bookmakers, who flourished in other countries. The ability to wire money to the totalisator would enable book makers to lay off some of their business, and he believed the facility would be utilised by them more than by anyone else. Furthermore, all those people who were barred from attending racecourses would be able to telegraph bets, and the same action would be possible to people under 21 years of age who were at present debarred from betting on the totalisator. It would not be to the advantage of the community if every telegraph office in the country were turned into an agency of the totalisator. Air Armstrong added that it would be preferable to license bookmakers who were already carrying on business in this country without paying anything for the privilege. It seemed to be impossible to suppress bookmaking. If the Bill went through there would be a charge of 2s on each telegram to a racecourse. This would not be an inducement to the people to bet on the machine instead of with the bookmaker.

Air R. A. Wright (Wellington Suburbs) agreed that it would lie impossible to put an end to bookmaking. He was in no way opposed to horse racing, but he. believed it should be regulated. If there were no control of any kind it would simply run to extremes. The question was-how far Parliament should go to regulate betting. The fundamental difference between the supporters and the opponents of the Bill related to the telegraphing of bets. He argued that such a course would be to the detriment of the young men and the young women of New Zealand. Temptation would be put in the way of these people before their characters were properly formed. When they realised they could telegraph bets to the totalisator in a perfectly legal way there would be an inducement to gamble that did not exist previously Referring to the proposal to legalise the publication of dividends. Air Wright said that such a step would “ create a thirst ” for* betting. People reading of big dividends would be tempted where previously they would not have .been interested.

Air W. J, Broadfoot (Waitomo) said that during last year there had been 101 applications from religious bodies for permission to hold art unions. The principle was the same as betting on horse. racing. He said if people were permitted to telegraph bets they were likely to be satisfied with an investment of £l, whereas if they attended the meeting they might be induced to bet on every race. Referring to the publication of dividends, Air Broadfoot asked why the public should not be told these details openly. Those who wanted to. know would find out in any case by tiptoeing round the corner to the bookmaker. Air Broadfoot approved of the principle of a State lottery, which he said was likely to take money fiom the hands of bookmakers. He intended when the Bill was in committee to move an amendment providin" for a State lottery in New ZealandMr W. D. Lysnar (Gisborne) said he had come to the conclusion that betting was inherent in our British constitu" i-^^ ie . Triton was prepared to b ac k his opinion with his money. He had been surprised by the extent of the interest in betting even in the backblocks, and he was satisfied it was useless to try to continue with a law that was driving betting underground. It was a wrong thing to allow to remain on the Statute Book a law that was being openly defied. It tended to bring all the laws into disrespect. He contended it was a bogey to argue that the provisions of the Bill would increase the facilities for betting, which would go on in any case. It was far better that it should be brought into the open. He supported the suggestion that there should be a State lottery in New Zealand.

Air W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) said it appeared that the State had achieved very little success in its attempt to suppress the bookmaker. Therefore it seemed desirable that there should + e i an at some reasonable control Tins would be preferable to driving business underground as it was today. He believed the totalisator had been responsible for the large amount of betting in the country to-day. It obliged people to bet to the extent of 10s per race, whereas they could previously ha'e bet 2s or 3s with a bookmaker. He asserted that he knew of people who were simply waiting for the Bill to be passed before deciding to set up in busi ness as bookmakers. It was nonsense to argue that the Bill would reduce the business with the bookmakers. 7’ (Southern Alaori) said that it was only hypocrisy to endeavour to stop gambling, and he would move an amendment later with the object of legalising the bookmaker. The idea of the previous legislation had been to eradicate the bookmakers, but now they were stronger than ever. The Act had created a sentiment towards the bookmaker, and there was no reason why a license should not be collected from him, especially as the countrv was in need of revenue.

Mr J. O'Brien (Westland) said he thought some amendment to the gamin" legislation was necessary. Mr R. Semple (Wellington East) opposed the Bill, and declared that there were more urgent problems requiring the attention of the House at the present time.

Air H. E. Holland (Buller) said he hoped the Bill would go past the second reading. There was a number of amendments necessary in the gaming legisla tion. For instance, he objected to the power of the Racing Conference in being able to insist on apprentices contracting themselves beyond the scope of the Arbftration Court. Mr Holland said -he had heard some remarkable views on the subject of the publication of dividends If it were wrong to publish dividends in a newspaper it was wrong to publish them on a racecourse. The position at present was that thousands of people saw the dividends on the racecourse. The figures were cabled to Australia and subsequently entered New Zealand in Australian newspapers. Air Holland also supported the proposal to telegraph bets to the totalisator.

Air H. Holland (Christchurch North) strongly opposed the Bill on the ground that it would increase gambling. The debate was interrupted by the vising of the House at 10.30 p.m.

WELLINGTON, September 26. The House met at 10.30 this morning. REPORTED FROM COMAIITTEES.

The Otago Presbyterian Church Board of Property Amendment Bill was reported from Committee of Selection without amendment, and the Al'Lean Institute Bill was reported fron the same cmmittee with amendments. WAGES ON RELIEF WORKS.

In reply to the Leader of the Labour Party (Air H. E. Holland), the Acting Leader of the House (Mr E. A. Ransom) said there would be no departure from recent statements of the Government concerning rates of wages on relief works. The representations of yesterday’s deputation on the subject of wage reduction had not yet been considered by Cabinet, and he was not prepared off-hand to make a statement on what amounted to a policy matter. THE ESTIAIATES. The House went into Committee of Supply to deal with the Estimates. The vote of £139,600 for public buildings, domains, maintenance, etc., of roads and irrigation works-was passed. Mr P. Fraser (Wellington Central) asked the Alinister of Public Works (Air W, B. Taverner) whether it would not be possible to reduce the votes for cx-

penditure in a number of directions. He stated that economies in this direction would be preferable to wage reductions. Air Taverner pointed out that if naintenance were allowed to fall below a certain standard it would involve increased expenditure at a later date. He added that reducing votes on maintenance would also tend to increase unemployment.

The Estimate of £134,000 for the Department of Justice was next considered.

The Alinister (Air J. G. Cobbe) said there was no strict rule with regard to the number of appointments of justices of the peace. Where it could be shown, as might be the case in widelyscattered country electorates, that there was need for more appointments, such appointments would be made. Replying to Air Howard, he said there was no discrimination at all with regard to the ■appointment of women justices. Replying to Mr Wright, Air Cobbe said the Government had no apology to make in connection with the decision that Alanly should not be executed. The case had been most carefully reviewed by Cabinet, and he was confident that anyone fully aware of the extraordinary circumstances would endorse the decision.

Replying to Air H. E- Holland, he said he agreed that it was desirable that there should in some instances be appointments of working men as justices of the peace, and he gave an assurance that, where suitable men were recommended by the member for the district, appointments would be made, provided, of course, that there were not too many justices already appointed in that district. He mentioned that there were at present nearly 6000 in the Dominion. Referring to the point raised by Mr J. A. Nash, the Alinister said the penalty for removing motor cars was purely at the discretion of the magistrate. It was, however, a good thing the question had been asked, as it served to indicate the feeling of members on the subject. Dealing with the remarks of Air Savage, Air Cobbe said the mere fact that a man addressed a meeting of unemployed would not be sufficient to cause his arrest on a vagrancy charge. He stated that, in the case mentioned by Mr Savage, the man convicted had refused to take work on several occasions.

Mr W. J. Polson (Stratford) said there was strong feeling in his district because a Alaori who had been convicted of forgery had been released to attend a recent tangi. There had apparently been no escort attached to this man.

Mr Cobbe said he was sorry the question had been raised. The relatives of Sir Alaui Pomare had desired that the man should attend the funeral, and he had been accompanied by an escort, not in uniform.

The vote was passed. When the Estimate of £90,000 for the Prisons Department was under consideration Mr Howard complained that the Borstal Institution at Invercargill was not being conducted as the name should imply. It was in reality a gaol. The whole environment supported that impression; it was completely divorced from the original intention of the system.

The House resumed at 2.30 p.m., when consideration of the Prisons Department estimate was continued.

The vote was passed. The estimate of £450,000 for the Police Department was submitted. In reply to questions, the Alinister (Air J. G. Cobbe) said that the numbe’ 1 of convictions last year indicated that the police were fully active in dealing with bookmakers.

Air F. Waite (Clutha) said he was glad to be able to say that valuable progress had been made in the endea vour to eliminate sly-grog selling in Southland. He hoped the new commissioner would keep up the pressure in this direction.

The Estimate was passed. _ The estimate of £165,000 for the Pensions Department was considered next. Air W. E. Parry (Auckland Central) moved that the vote should be reduced by £1 as an indication that the House desired an increase in the old age and blind pensions. Air Cobbe said he knew that there were anomalies in the Pensions Act. The Government was sympathetic, but another million would be required to put them right. Pensions were costing the country £2,809,598. The increases asked for would cost a further £1,011.000, and that was impossible at present. He was prepared to give miners favourable consideration.

Mr E. J. Howard (Christchurch South) supported the amendment and said he believed the country could a "’•‘rd to pay old age pensioners £1 a week. Mr Coates asked if the Alinister would state when the soldiers’ rehabilitation -e--port could be taken. There were many urgent cases to be considered.

Mr Cobbe said that an opportunity would be given to discuss the report. His department had been negotiating with the Returned Soldiers’ Association and had practically come to an understanding which, he believed, would please all returned soldiers.

The amendment -was defeated by 40 votes to 22, and the vote was passed. The estimate of £275,000 for the Defence Department was submitted. Air Coates said that many people were concerned owing to the undefined attitude of the Government towards defence. He asked what form military training would take in the future.

Mr Cobbe said that 600 officers and n.c.o.’s and 2000 men would be kept in training this year, and also secondary school cadets.

In reply to Mr Waite, the Alinister said that the ammunition retained would amount to sufficient for the war reserve He was not in a position at the moment to answer the question asked by Air J. A. Nash.

r J- Jordan (Manukau) urged that facilities should be given for men to go into camp if they desired to io so. It seemed to him that the pendulum had swung right over from compulsory military training to the other extreme. Progress was then reported, and the House rose at 5.30 p.m. till 2.30 p.m. on Alonday.