WAR REGULATIONS BILL.

Otago Witness, Issue 3254, 26 July 1916, Page 44

WAR REGULATIONS BILL.

SECOND READING DEBATE. MINISTER'S STRONG SPEECH (Feom Oub Own Cokrf.spondent.) WELLINGTON, July 19. The. most controversial measure of tho session—the War Regulations Bill, on which the early closing question will be thrashed out—was entered on this evening, when the Hon. A. L. Herdman moved the second reading. As a preliminary, Mr Hornsby asked that the ladies' gallery should be cleared, as some subjects required to be discussed in a plain manner. The Speaker replied that' he had given instructions to the orderlies to inform ladies that the Bill was to be discussed, and that it was not desirable that they should be present. These instructions had evidently not been carried out. but he would new intimate that the Dill was to be discussed. He had no authority to order ladies to withdraw. At tins point, however, the ladies took the matter into ty.heir own hands, and left the Chamber. After half an hour's absence five staunch-hearted matrons returned, evi-. dently prepared to brave unknown horrors. THE MINISTER'S REVIEW. Mr Herdman explained that the measure was purely a war Bill, but it contained a good deal of controversial matter. It was framed with the idea of doing justice to the community, and he hoped that no section would make use of the Bill to advance! its particular political propaganda. Tho Bill asked Parliament to empower the Government to deal with the control of the sale of liquor, and with prostitution and venereal disease. The Bill also provided for the making of regulations to prevent enemy trading. It was important that dua regard should be paid to the necessity fori remaining friendly with\ neutral nations, especially those neutral Scandinavian nations close to the doors of England. He believed that a very great and difficult task had been achieved by British statesmen in defining a policy on which the navy could act to stifle German trade. The steps taken by the Imperial Government to destroy enemy trade had been effective. He detailed the solution of the present blockade policy of the British —to secure the complete commercial isolation of Germany. As showing the effectiveness of the isolation, ho mentioned that for seven months preceding the war America imported from Austria and Germany £24,800.000 worth of goods, and that for the months from . March to September, 1915. tho exports from theso countries to America had dropped to £4.400.000. Included in tho latter total wore £300.000 worth of goods which were allowed to go because they had been already paid for. Mr Herdman went on to detail the steps taken in New Zealand to, stifle enemy trading. SIX O'CLOCK CLOSING. He proposed now to deal with 6 o'clock closing He hoped the House would deal with the Bill in a fair way, and that no members would endeavour to use rt to advance their political proclivities. The Government was concerned in the preservations of good order in the community, and its' desire should be to maintain good orderwithout interfering unduly with the rights of other people. He wished to make the point that, since the outbreak of war, an election had been held. At that election, the question whether licenses should continue was referred to the people, who_ expressed their opinion on the matter in a, very convincing manner. He wished it to be remembered, and generally understood, that the election was held after the outbreak of war. when there were soldiers in camp, and when forces were being sent from New Zealand. The war was in full blast at the time. Individuals had acquired rights in this country, had acquired property, and had invested their money in a. business under the belief thai they would bo entitled to carry on a particular business for three years without molestation. Under these circumstances it would be a gross injustice it Parliament were to curtail those rights. If the House wished to curtail tho hours of sale the only fair thing to do would be to compensate the licensees. "And." he said, "goodness knows what you are going to pay if you close the hotels. at 6 o'clock.' THE POLICE EVIDENCE. From the point of view of the maintenance of order, lie had come to the conclusion* that the best way to maintain order was to leave the hotels open until 10 o'clock. Tho police had found difficulty in dealing •with sly-grog shops, and power would bo given them "to enter these places without warrant. Tho police wanted power to prevent women from going into hotels to get drink. If tho Government wore given power to cope with the sly-grog evil and to keep women out of hotels the police could deal with the present difficulty; in I fact, he did not admit that there was any 1 difficulty at present existing. In view of

tho number of soldiers that had been in tho city during the war period it was a matter for astonishment that so little drunkenness had occurred. Tho good conduct of tho soldiers was very much to the credit of the young men of our community. In view of this, why disturb the present condition of affairs? Tho principal argument advanced in favour of early closing was that this was necessary to protect the soldiers. Ho denied this most emphatically. The evidence was that the New Zealand soldiers had comported themselves in a way that was a credit not only to New Zealand but to the British race. Superintendent O'Donovun had had special opportunities for observing the conduct of the men, and he, had reported most favourably on it. A NEW CLAUSE. In addition, he proposed, when the Bill was in committee, to introduce a new clause which would give the police a power which they ought always to have—to call upon a licensee at any time to go before a licensing committee to show cause why his license should not be cancelled for misconduct. That committee should then be enabled to give the license to somo respectable man. There were hundreds of hotelkeepcrs who desired to conform strictly to tho law, but there was a email section which would not do this, and therefore tho Government should have the additional power ho indicated to maintain discipline. TO REGULATE INDUSTRY. Mr M'Combs asked what tho sub-clause relating to industrial organisation meant. Mr Herdman replied that the significance of this was that it might, poss.bly happen that the Government might have to take over an industry and run it. Tins gave the power to do that, as they had in England. Ho did not think it would be necessary in Now Zealand, but this gave the power. VENEREAL DISEASE. Tho Hon. Mr Russell said that the question of venereal disease was so important as affecting the military, tho civilians, tho women, and the children that deep consideration was required for its treatment. That venereal disease was deeply planted in tho country was shown by the fact that in tho six months ended April, 1916, 93 soldiers in Featherston and 191 at Trcntbam were taken to hospital suffering from gonorrhea. During the same period three wcro admitted at Featherston and four at Trcntham suffering from syphilis. ' Other forms of venereal disease accounted for six at Trentham, making the # totals 91 at Featherston and 201 at Trentham—292 for the whole period. Eleven of them were returned soldiers. A return also showed that on a quarantine station in one of our harbours 90 soldiers were segregated, having contracted the disease, mostly at the camps. These were being held till they were cured. Very few of these mon were returned soldiers. Tho question ho now put to the House was whether these men should be segregated while the women who had communicated the disease should bo allowed at large and enmesh other innocents in their meshes. Soldiers were no mop susceptible to these women than the civilians; and it was known that the civilian population was affected to a similar degree. The CD. Act, when it was in force in New Zealand, had resulted in a marked improvement in Christchurch in tho public health. but ho d : d not propose to ask for a renewal of that Act, He advocated the segregation of women, but also tho segregation of men who wcro known to bo promiscuous with women. TRUST THE GOVERNMENT. Some women's associations had protested against tho prospective action of Parliament, but he asked them to trust the combined wisdom of the police' and Health Department, as well as of tho National Government, which had as high a respect for womanhood as any man. Ho proposed to ask that the one-woman brothel should be placed on the same level as a brothel with more than one occupant. His second proposal was that every woman suspected of leading an immoral life should be detained on a charge of vagrancy and examined, and if found to be diseased should be detained until cured. In the same way, every man who was vagrant and diseased should bo detained till cured. In regard to clandestine immorality tho problem was very difficult, but he proposed that it should bo made a criminal offence for any person not a legally qualified medical man to treat venereal disease. This would prevent quacks from getting to work. Tho speaker went on to refer at length to the necessity for an educational campaign. He believed that such a campaign would bo supported by medical men and the press, and he would approve of lecture? by male and female doctors to their respective sexes. Finally, Mr Russell said he could assure the public that a very careful examination of all the returned troopships had been made, and tho evidence was all against the assertion that any of the more horrible forms of venereal disease found in the East had been introduced into New Zealand.

Mr Russell later explained that the only persons he proposed should be segregated wore prostitutes and males who were known to be promiscuous in their relations with women. The procedure would bo as follows: —(1) Arrest as a vagrant without lawful moans of support; (2) conviction; (3) examination; (4) if found to bo diseased person to bo held till cured. All other persons —casual or clandestine prostitutes who were diseased, but who had lawful moans of support—would not be liable to arrest, but would bo able to obtain free treatment as at hospital clinics. A COMPROMISE WANTED. Mr Wilford said he thought hotels should not bo opened before 9 a.m., and, as 12 hours was long enough for the hotels to bo open, ho would endeavour, when amendments were being moved, to vote, if the opportunity offered, for hotels being opened from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. So far as the antitreating clause was concerned he would bo delighted to vote for it. Mr l'oolo declared that the Attorney general had shown by his dexterous special pleading that ho was a partisan on any question relating to the sale of liquor. Ho assured him that the Bill was not going through without some effort being made to improve it in the way of early closing. Mr Poolo stressed the point that tho de-

mand for early closing was being made on behalf of tho soldier. It was a demand for national efficiency.

Mr Hornsby said tho people.of the conn try were demanding that the great waste

that was going on should be modified. Many people who were not prohibitionists were asking- now for a reduction of waste. He spoke strongly against the proposed regulation of prostitution, as tending to degrade womanhood, and s;n'd ho would oppose it with all his strength.

Dr Thacker said that the war would probably go far to clear up the position with regard to alcohol and venereal disease, and if this were so. then many lives would not have been lost in vain. He denied that the soldiers needed any special consideration. They were ablo to look after tlicniselves, but if early closing, or even anti-shouting, wero carried, tho licensees would bo entitled to compensation. Referring to venereal disease, ho stressed the importance of education rather than the imposition of restrictive legislation. Tho first step should bo to teach physiology to the children as soon as they we're ready to understand sex matters. They should not be frightened, but merely educated. Quacks should be repressed firmly, especially the huge display advertisements in the newspapers. Twothirds of the young men of the country who went to, ruin through venereal disease wero sent there through quacks. He entirely agreed that there should be no difference in tho treatment of a diseased man or woman. Infected persons should be segregated till cured. Mr Craigie supported tho anti-shouting clause as promoting temperance. He claimed that on a referendum the people would close the hotels at 6 o'clock by a two to one majority. The people were wasting £4,000.000 a year on drink, and this (national waste should be stopped. Mr Harris strongly favoured early closing and anti-shouting as being efficacious war measures. July 20.

The adjourned debate on the .War Regulations Bill was resumed this afternoon, when" tho early closing issue immediately came to tho fore. Mr Statham imparted some liveliness to tho debato by emphatically denying that he had assisted in deliberately '-talking out the report of tho M to Z Petitions Committee's report on the early closing petitions. EXPERIENCE IN MAT AUK A.

Mr Anderson said that those who supported early closing had no desire to attempt to mollycoddle the soldiers, wiio were a very sober lot of men on the'whole. Ho contended that the consumption of liquor would be lessened if the hotels wcro closed ;)t an earlier hour. In Mataura tho sale of liquor had materially decreased since no license was carried, despite tho facilities afforded by breweries for its purchase. Mr Wiiford : Don't people drink in their own homes instead of in tho hotels? Mr Anderson replied that whilst there wore undoubtedly many keg parties, the drinking in homes was not so great as was often represented. He had previously voted for license, but after seeing the effect of no license he had voted for it ever since. He would support a reduction of hotel hours. On tho subject of compensation he thought an arrangement should be made between the landlords and tenants, but there was no reason why any compensation should bo paid. Mr Wilkinson said ho was a Moderate. and believed in somo curtailment of tlic hours for the sale of liquor. Tho Bill provided for anti-shouting, and he could sec no reason why they should not go a slop further. Mr Statham spoke regarding a charge that had been made against him in connection with tho " talking out" of the report of the Mto Z Committee. He asked whether Mr Isitt really thought that ho took part in the discussion with the intention of ""talking out" tho report. Mr Isitt: I know that your whip (Mr Dickson) was travelling round the House getting members to speak. Mr Statham: I took no part whatever in any talking out. Mr Isitt: I accept your statement, Mr Statham : Yet the same evening someone sent a telegram to Dunedin stating that I and six. others had " talked out" the report. A Voice: A dirty trick.

Mr Statham said he had merely given n resume of wdiat took place before the committee, yet he had boon attacked in the rear for having taken part in a " conspiracy." Mr Statham proceeded to read extracts from tho Vanguard, when he was checked by tho Speaker, who said ho could not read anything reflecting on the action of members in the House._

Mr Wilford: You can raise it as a question of privilege if you like. Mr Statham: I don't wish to do that. There are, I believe, legal moans by which I can make those gentlemen realise what they have been saying, but I won't say anything about that in the meantime. I have been receiving a largo number of anonymous letters threatening mo. Mr Wilford: My gracious! Wo have all had those for years and years. Mr Statham added that ho would not be swayed in his action by any fear of personal consequences. In referring to what had been said regarding tho soldiers he said he regretted that anyone should have referred to some of tho solcVers as "sodden lumps of flesh," as had boon done by one witness. As to compensation, some of the witnesses before the committee had expressed the opinion that compensation should be given. It was not fair that in the middle of the three years' term they should inflirt a loss on tho hotelkeepers by closing their houses earlier without paying compensation. Mr Isitt, replying to Mr Statham, said ho had no connection with the Vanguard, had not contributed to it for three years, and had not seen the statement referred to till it was shown to him by a member of tho House. Ho accepted Mr Statham's assurance that he did not know what was going on, but he maintained that those associated with him were fully advised of tho scheme, and tho last speaker on that day was asked to "curry on'' tili 5.30, when the report was "talked out." Mr Isitt congratulated the Minister of Public Health on his speech on venereal disease, and went on to argue that there was a very close connection between drink and venereal disease. If they really desired to preserve the health of tho soldiers, it was their duty to lessen their temptation by reducing the hours for the retail sale of liquor. Various officers hid assured him that tho efficiency of the soldiers was affected 10 per cent by liquor; but this question did not only affect tho soldier. It concerned the whole economic position of the dominion. It was not patriotic to ask the women of the country to give up their men and at the same time to seek to protect (he financial interests of "the trade" from the slightest disturbance. The evidence of Professor Bedford before the committee had been carefully left alone by the advocates of liquor. Ifo had said that if was the bounden duty of the Empire to economise. Should we not begin at the _<-hi"f sources of waste which were dr'nking and '■-•Sibling, each of which evil consumed £4 000.000 a year? Most men admitted that to shorten tho hours of hotels would do good, but it was urtrcd in defence that to do so would

be to work injury to the 1 licensee. It was claimed that to close the hotels at 6 o'clock would involve the trade in a loss of £1,200,000; but this was merely extravagance.' The "scrap of paper - ' referred to as between the licensee and the country was not a contract, but merely a permit. That license had already been modified at various times, and! if the same power of modification were exercised now, no special case for compensation could be made out. If the wholesale branch of the trade benefited bv the changed conditions, then it should be more heavily taxed, and an adjustment made with flic retail branch. TOO MUCH COERCION. Dr Newman, referring to venereal disease, complimented the Minister on the matter of his speech, but said he did not agree with the frequently-express*! opinion that these diseases were rife. The diseases were not nearly so prevalent as they were in the old countries. The Minister's proposals were full of coercion, and one of the clauses was

an insult to every woman in New Zealand. It was a wrong clause. It virtually re-enacted the CD. Act. The Minister was going the wrong way to work to stamp the disease out, and there was a right way by which he could do much good work. For the administration of any such legislation there should be women magistrates and women police. If, was quite wrong that the administration of the Act should bo left wholly to men police. He would divide the House on this subject, because ho did not believe in it. On the liquor question, lie upbraided the Government for having refused to take any action to reduce the consumption of liquor. The Government. had not even taxed liquor enough.'Although £5,000.000 more taxation had been put on the people, the taxation on brer was almost nil. He believed that there was a general opinion in all ranks of society all over New Zealand thai: the hours for the sale of' liquor should be reduced. . If the House would not reduce the hours, it could at least insist upon a referendum and leave the whole question for determination by the people. It was idle to say that there was no drunkenness in New Zealand. There were all too many evidences of it in any town in our country.

Mr Webb said he had always regarded

"Mr Booze" as an enemy, and he hoped to continue to do so all his life. Ho objected, however, to the idea of the Bill, which was "government by regulation." Mr Wright held that the publication of the speech of the Minister of Public Health was a breach of the Indecent Publications Act, and future pamphlets would probably be breaches of that Act unless it were amended. Mr M'Combs referred to the action taken in various Australian States, and urged that a similar course should bo taken here of enabling the people to vote on what hours the hotels should remain open Mr Scott said that those who were advocating early closing were aiming at the hotelfcceper. Why did they not go to the root of the matter and impose such a heavy tariff .as would compel the people to be sober? He had no connection with the trade, but ho could not disguise from himself the fact that if these hours were restricted very great harm would bo done to the licensee. So far as the soldiers were concerned, he had been surprised at the excellence of their behaviour. It was ridiculous to say that early closing was necessary for the soldier. Mr Payne pointed out that social conditions encouraged some measure of prostitution, as economic reasons forbade men marrying until they were about 34 years of age on the average. The real remedy was education, which should begin early. MINISTER IN REPLY. The Hon. Mr Herdman, in reply, poinded out that earl}' closing would mean the dismissal of a large number of employees right throughout New Zealand. This wotdd flood the whole labour market with idle n>!Ji. That would be a serious matter. He coined in congratulating- the Minister of Public Health on his bold and courageous speech, but the matter that had been principally discussed was the regulation of the hours of hotels. This discussion showed clearly that the prohibition party had mad© tiic occasion one for advocating its own end*. He held that it was wrong at such a timeto consider anything- other than the prosecution of the war, and ho ventured to as'3<--rt that there would never have been any Mich advocacy as this except for the presence of soldiers in the large cities. It was admitted even by the prohibitionists that there had boon very little drunkenness on their part. If this wore so, why was there any demand for a change? It had been assorted that the nation was in the grip at present of its greatest enemy—drink. If that were so, it had performed some remarkable feats in placing such a navy upon the sea and such an army in the field as was now in France, and also such an output of munitions as was recorded, besides financing very largely some of its Allies. These were remarkable feats for a nation in the grip of its strongest enemy. The real object of the prohibitionists was to take advantage of the present position and close the hotels as far as they could, and the facts did not warrant any such drastic change. The evidence of the police was that there was no cause for any such change. The military evidence should carry weight. Colonel Potter and Colonel Adams both declared that it was in the interests of the soldiers that the hotels should remain open as at present, and, as the Minister in charge of the police, he endorsed this view. If a change were made, the condition of the soldiers in the back streets would be far worse thai-, at present. The general atttitudc of the early closing advocates was that the hotel door should be closed to the soldiers. Well, where were they to go? They should not deny

to soldiers who were going away to fight for their country the little liberty that was theirs. From the point of view of efficiency, could it be suggested that there was any lack of this on the part either of our soldiers or our civilian population? There was no evidence to justify any such claim. Then.. as to the argument of economy, he asked : "Why select the hotels?" What right had any ('lass of people to make a special attack on one business. Picture shows were a waste, but, would early closing apply to them? As for a referendum, he did not believe that the voice of the people was always right. At the outset of the war compulsory military training would have been rejected by tho'pcoplc of Britain. There were times when the opinion of the few was perhaps sound: i; than that of the many. If temperance were to be secured it would be won by teaching young men to be selfreliant." and unless this was done our nation would be a weak one. The Bill was read a second time, and theHouse adjourned at 11.40 n.m.