MR BARRON'S EVIDENCE.

Otago Witness, Issue 2665, 12 April 1905, Page 16

MR BARRON'S EVIDENCE.

SOME VALUABLE SUGGESTIONS.

NGAPARA. March 31

At the meeting: of the Land Commission here yesterday, it was resolved, as there

was a spare hour before dinner, to hear the evidence of Mr David Barron, Commissioner of Crown Lands, and Chief Surveyor for the Otago district. A portion of Mr Barron's evidence was telegraphed yesterday. Regarding the question of tenure, ths Witness said that the tenures in the Otago district appealed to satisfy the bulk of settlers and applicants for land. So far as ordinary close settlement was concerned, a number :ogretted the loss of the deferred , payment and pe-rpetual-lea;e systems. The present conditions were, however, dee-med to be fair upon the whole, provided ihat in all cases, whether on a goldfield or not, the optional system sbou'd be allowed. ' If the object of limiting selection on goldfields to lease in perpetuity was for the purpose of securing the miner better rights and privileges, this appeared to be attain- ' oble by the Mining Act of 1898 and its j amendments — that was. miners had full power to enter upon any land gi"anted or di-sposed of since 1892, and do whatever was necessary, the compensation being prac- ■ tically the same undei any of the tenures. j If the Government desired to give leases J only, he would suggest that lessees be [ allowed the right to pay off at any time ' an amount equal to a cprtain sum. as indicated in his suggestion at the Land Boards' , conference. The right thus retained would i prevent the aggregation of estates beyond ! a limit of. say, in the case of first-class j land, not more than 1000 acres, and, in . the ca«-e of second-class land, 2000 acres, i Of course, the limit would apply to close ! settlement only. The areas of grazing runs S were not included in + hese figures. They ' were conditional on position and quality, j aspect, elevation, and workability. The ! size of pastoral run- also depended on the ! same conditions. At first sight it might at pear that there need be no 'limit to the area of pastoral leases, but so far as his observation went, a run that was beyond a certain limit proved a most difficult problem of management. The conditionsas to large areas of pastoral country under one control had materially altered during the past few years on account of the difficulties ht contending with the various pests with which th-p pastoralist had to cope. The question of the future of runs in the district was somewhat difficult to determine. A- p matter of course, the low. lying runs mu-t be- subdivided to meet the interests of advancing settlement. At the same tim.-> great care must b? exerciser 7 in classifying what wa<= now left, so that the interest of the pastoral and settlement lauds as a whole- might l^e equally preserved in the present state of affairs. Years aao. " and' prior j to the great run sales of 1882, he advocated a thorough classification of the land throughout Otago. Had this been carried out all the agricultural land would have been carefully defined. The pastoral-agricultural i land should have been marked on the maps j in the same way. and the purely pastoral carefully classified. This la«t Glass should have a fair proportion of low country for winter lambing purpose*. Probably it would also have included an aroa io grow winter feed for j-oung stock. This classifica- \ tion wa* now almost too late. At the same ' time, what was left wa= worthy of consideration, and the fact that \erj many of

the leases expired in 1910 would give th» Government an opportunity of adopting a scheme of subdivision. This was a matter that ought to be taken in hand within the next few years, so that both intendingsettlers and pastoralists might know what to expect. To both the present state of things meant unrest, the settler demanding- all the low country and the squatter doubtful of the future, and consequently refraining from attempting- any improvements on his run on account of the insecurity of water. If this proposal were carried into effect, and leases given for lengthened periods, with the right of renewal under certain circumstances, there was little doubt that grassing would be extensively carried out. The improved farm settlement tenure had been carried out under difficult conditions, en account of the distance in most cases from a market. Occupation leases had proved a considerable boon to miners, and wherever the Land Board found it judicious to grant areas under this system it had given the full benefit of its privileges. Of course, in some cases, the board had been compelled to refuso these leases, the principal reason being tin? prejudicial effect on the present working and future subdivision of the pastoral run concerned. Crown tenants laboured under minor restrictions, but nothing to seriously interfere with their welfare. They seldom found fault with the conditions of their occupancy." Sometimes local circumstances arose by which a tenant might be unable to carry out his lease. In these cases there might be some method of relief provided by which the Land Beard, after investigation, might recommend or grant a substantial reduction in rent, and the right to continue in occupation might be allowed without having to resort to acceptance of surrender or forfeiture, and the contfhgent delay and expense in gazetting, advertising-, etc. The residential conditions appeared to be fair, and boards exercised sympathetic discretionary power in granting exemptions when it was that the settler had bona fide intentions of complying- with the requirements of the act. There were cases >n which a man, after making a selection, might not be in a position to comply with the act within the period allowed. As a rule the ranger made the necessary inquiries in these cases, and the board might then allow rhe tenant an extended time in which to have a house erected or other necessary arrangements being made. It would not be wi. K e to relax residential conditions too much, as bona fide settlers did not require exemption privileges except under the stress of extraordinary circumstances. The conditions obtaining under Hie Land Act v. ere quite sufficient for the southern parts of the colony. As for th-e-homestead privileges and their reinstatement, his opinion was that the homestead system was not required in this district. He thought it would be inadvisable at the present time to sell the great pastoral areas of Otago. having regard to the mining interests. He produced a map showing th-a area of land in Otago hold under purely pastoral lease to be 4-,464-,000 acres. The Chairman : In regard to the- easing of restrictions, do you not think that the facility you suggest would probably incica«e the number of those who would be coming to beg for remission* ant 1 so forth? -The Land Board has sufficient backbone as a

rule to resist them.. We get intelligent reports from our rangers, and if we are not satisfied with them we make further inquiry. In fact,' we sometimes actually send members of the Land Board to investigate with the ranger, and in this way we get to the real state of affairs. Do you think you would still .refer these matters to the Minister? — I "think" the Land Board is quite in a position to deal with them. It is rather a delicate question, however, and it is not for me to offer an opinion. Do you aprirove of the second ballot? — No. You would ■ simply revert to what was in operation before that?— Yes. The only difficulty in the Land for Settlements Act so far as grouping is concerned is that I think there should be some method of grouping into two or three or four lots, as the caee may be. This would be necessary on account of the various classes of settlers who might wish to apply. ' A strong man financially might wish to apply ior 1000 " acres, and he -might be capable of working them. A man with less means would be satisfied to apply for ( half of that area, and a third class of man. might put in for a limit," say, up to 200 acres, "in that case it would be necessary to have the sections grouped so that the board, -could-- deal .with the various classes of " applicants. Otherwise it would never "do for a weak man financially to be allowed at the ballot to secure a section which would require the greatest amount of money to be expended on it. This is the only system of grouping I would suggest. Otherwise I would have a straight-out ballot, and let the first man make his choice of the section he wanted, and co on. Is the aggregation of estates going on, in Otago? — I think it is rather the opposite. There is a segregation rather than aggregation. Mr M 'Cardie: You think that of the four members selected by the Government one should represent the holders of leases und^r the Land for Settlements Act and another the pastoral tenants. Do you not think that the landless people of the colony should also be represented by a member appointed from the towns? — The difficulty with the town member is that he practically knows nothing afc all about land." We have had members of the board who were freeholders, and they acted in the interests of the- settlers quite as carefully and as wisely, I think, as if they had been Crown tenants. You have shown us a large tract of pastoral land: Is it, possible to divide these runs in such a way that an increased population could be placed on them as the leases fall in?— To a limited exten.t' only. Would you favour where there' is level or low country adjacent to these large runs tbe_ Government purchasing it to assist in • dividing the large' runs? — I have only one in my mind's eye where that would be possible. Any of the land adjacent has become so valuable by improvements that it would hardly pay to group it with the hilly lands. I think, so far as the comparatively valueless lands are concerned, we will just have to make the best of a bad job. This question of classification should have been undertaken years ago, and the high land and the low or lambing country should have been conserved for it. As it is now we have to let the comparatively useless high land go for whatever it will fetch. The, danger is that it may be thrown on our hands eventually. That is what I am anxious to guard against. ' Have you had any experience of small settlers who, finding they had too little land on which to make a living, were de- ' sirous to obtain a section to increase their area, perhaps at some little distance from them? — It has been carried on to a limited extent on the latest run taken — that is, Patearoa. I am referring to the small settlers under Mase in perpetuity or occupation with right of- purchase leases? — I see some of these settlers are combining to take up one or two of- these hilly runs, and in this way they are trying to work in their low country with the high ground. We know that the ordinary Crown settler under lease in perpetuity can only take up 600 acres of first class land or 2000 acres of second class land, but there are many cases •where a settler takes up a very small section, and in the course of time he wishes to get more land, but there may be no 'land adjoining his section, and tho board 'has no power to give him land unless it is adjacent to .his section? — He could buy a pastoral lease. The run I mention was cut ■up into four- small pastoral leases, arid the settlers some few miles away bought them. However, it is only in its experimental stage so far as this particular run is con- ' ©erned. I know a case in point where a man who ■was only holding 20 acres was not allowed to buy a deceased estate of 30 acres a quarter of a mile away because it did not adjoin his section. Do you think the law should be amended to meet a case like . that? — Yes. If a. man has occupied a e&c- |

tion for three years and has held it for that time " he is then in a position to take up a section any distance away. Mr M'Cutchan : In going through the province several tenants pointed out that inadvertently .they had allowed the period during which they could purchase to pass by under the perpetual lease system, and we were informed that, under an opinion from the Solicitor-general, that period has been extended? — Yes. Has the fact that it has been extended been generally made known to the tenants? — No, except through the medium of the press. I do not think that any intimation has been given. In regard to loans applied for and for whioh the sanction of your board is required, have you any idea of the proportion of these loans that have been refused? — The refusals, of course, do not come through us. But wlien an application for a loan is made, the tenant applying has to inform you that he is applying for a loan, and a report is required from you by the d&partment. ■ In that way you get a, knowledge of what loans are applied for, and subsequently you have to approve, and, therefore, you kno^v what loans have been gf anted, and I wish to. know if you can, from memory, give me the percentage of the loans granted by the department? — I cannot give you the percentage, The amount of the loan is not mentioned in the application that is sent to me to get the ordinary repc-rt from the ranger. I have no idea how much the loan is, and beyond the application afterwards for the approval of the board to the loan we are left in the dark altogether. Can you state what number of these loans refused by the department have been granted by oiitside lenders, seeing that the consent of your board has to be given to these mortgages? — In my experience very few applications that have been refused by the /Vdvance-s to Settlers Department have been granted by outside lending bodies. Have you had any instruction from the Minister as to the maximum rate of interest to be permitted in connection with these mortgages on Crown lands? — Yes; the limit was 8 per cent ; but as a matter of fact we had no applications for loans beyond 7 per cent. In connection wit'i the "thirds" question, does any good reason occur to your mind why " thirds " should not be paid to the local bodies from cash lands arc well as lease in perpetuity and perpetual lease lands? — No. I think they should be paid from cash lands as well as the other leasing systems. You said that the residential conditions are fairly right, but it seems to me there is an inconsistency in one respect : on leaee in perpetuity bush lands a man is exempt from residence for four years, and from the time he goes into residence he has to reside for 10 years continuously. The right of purchase tenant is under the same exemption, but from the time he goej into residence he has to reside six yeare. Is there any reason for such a wide distinction between the two systems? — Certainly not. I think that both should be placed on the same footing, and be required to live on the land at least 10 years. Do you not think it would be wise to revere© the position, and make it six years' residence? — No; I think 10 years. When speaking of the ballot question you made reference to giving preference to a married man or to unsuccessful applicants in order to do away with the amount of dissatisfaction that exists in connection with the ballot, more particularly in the northern districts? — The question of preference was gone into very extensively at the Land Board conference, but it was found quite impossible to arrive at any decision in regard to it. So many difficulties arose in connection with reference to married men, or men who had been unsuccessful in previous ballots, that upon the whole we could not come to any decision. EVIDENCE AT TOKARAHI. The Land Commission left Ngapara this morning, and drove to Tokarahi, passingsome splendid farm and grazing land. The peculiar lime formations of portion of the district were viewed with much interest. A sitting was held in the Public Hall at halfpast 11 in the presence of a small number of settlers. Lindley William Murray, farmer, said lie paid 6s 9d per acre for 462 acres on Tokarahi. He was satisfied with his lease in perpetuity, and was opposed io the freehold. The Government should not part with the freehold, and ought to acquire estates whereever practicable. He had had no cause to be dissatisfied with the Land Board, but thought portion of the board should be elected. If the freehold were given he thought there would be a tendency for holders to get into the hands of moneylenders. He was opposed to the grouping of sections. In the second ballot under the grouping- system a man had often to take «. section he did not .want or forfeit his

T deposit. The district was prosperous. Large estates had been cut up, and one effect had been to redeem Oamaru from a ' state of stagnation to a state of comparative prosperity. Corriedalc could be divided into sections — in fact, the people were looking for it in sections — of, say, 500 or 600 acres. He understood Otekaiko could also be cut up to advantage for small grazing runs, including high and low land. He thought there were times when the Land Board might use some discretion in regard to cropping regulations. A mao who had effected a certain amount of improvements ought to be allowed a free hand in ci-op-ping. He supported revaluation for rent, but the intervals ought to be long — say, 50 years. If a man improved his land Jay building, ditching, and so on, those improvements ought to be his own property. For himself, he took as much interest in his leasehold as if he owned it. Louis Dashler, farmer, said he was quite satisfied with his lease in perpetuity and generally satisfied with his holding altogether. He wag not pleased with the time for paying half-yearly rent. A better division of the year would be .March 20 and September 20, so a's to run in with the harvest. He had a freehold at Otekaike before coming to Tokarahi,' buf got into ihe hands of a money-lender and lost it. There were 30 settlers on the Otekaike Estate at one time, but now there were only 16. The / settlers remaining had bought out the others, and one man held 1700 acres, and another 1300 acres. The men who had had the pick of the land in the first place bought out the other settlers. That would always be the way under the freehold. The best land would be taken up and the worst left on the hands of the Government. A meeting of Crown tenants was hold to consider the question of leasehold and freehold. Twenty members attended. Witness moved a motion to the effect that tenants were quite satisfied with the lease, and desired no change. An amendment in the oppostie direction was also moved, but the motion was carried by 18 to 2. He thought that vote represented the feeling of Crown tenants in the settlement at the j>resent day. The erection of a creamery on the estate had increased the value of the land by £1 per acre. Some tenants who had sold out had got from £1 to £2 per acre over and above their improvements. The settlement ■was a great success, but the tenants had a struggle for the first few years. Alexander Beck, another tenant on the Tokarahi Estate, said he was satisfied with his position. He endorsed the evidence of the two previous witnesses, and supported Mr Dashler's suggestion that the dates of paying the half-yearly rent should be altered. The Chairman: Ye*. I think myself it would he an improvement. John Porter, settler at Tokarahi. said he took over a lease of 600 acres on tho estate four years ago. He also had 16,000 acres on the ranges behind Livingstone on which ho carried 3500 she^p. He was satisfied with his position, but would prefer the option of the freehold. He knew a few other settlers who supported the freehold, but -they were not present that day. He feared that revaluation might be brought j about, and that was one reason why he i desired the freehold. The cropping restricj tions ought to be abolished. Though he ! supported freehold, he would limit the . area any person could hold. ' j Mr M'Lennan: I think the best thing you Crown tenants «an do is to say very j ■ little about the freehold. ' I Further questioned, witness said that when he took up his present lease on Tokarahi he paid £460 for the goodwill. Revaluation was talked about by Labour bodies in towns, and he had heard murmurings that pressure would be brought to i bear on the town members to support it. ! The towns could outvote the country. ' Mr Paul .- They cannot do anything of the sort ; but that does not matter. ! In reply to Mr Forbes, the witness said j he thought that Otekaike could be cut up to advantage if subdivided into areas of 2000 or 3000 acres. William Hughes .fanner, Tokarahi, said ho held 367 acres on leas-e in perpetuity, but he would like to Have the option of purchase. He thought Land Boards ought , to be partially elective, the Government to have power to nominate the majority. The sum of £7000 had been put on Tokarahi for roads. He considered that this } sum should come out of the general revenue | and not be put on the estates. He was not I in favour of grouping sections, because an •' applicant might have to take a section he j did not want. On Tokarahi fully 80 per cent, of the increased value of the land was clue to the efforts of the tenants in the 1 erection of a creamery (which was run by > shareholders), telephone office, and school on the estate. The price of butter-fat had gone up to ll|d from the Taieri and Peninsula Dairy Company. Witness was a mem- | ber of the Farmers' Union. The Executive Committee had a meeting in Dunedin about , 12 months ago, when a motion was brought „ forward in favour of the freehold. Witness, '

as a delegate from Tokarahi, opposed the motion. His own opinion, however, was that tenants should have the option of the freehold. He was satisfied with the Land Board. The rangers had always treated him in a fair way. He did not think the Advances to Settlers Office had had the effect of reducing the price of money to farmers. There were other causes for the reduction. The £7000 for roading was spent under the co-operative system, and the money was not wisely spent. The work took too long, and was not properly done. Witness bought his brother out on the estate, giving him something So; the goodwill.

Thomas Evans, gold minor, Maerewhenua, brought up a grievance in connection with the running of cattle on a commonage.

Peter M'Gradie, another Tokarahi settler, came • forward to support the freehold tenure. He was a freeholder in Shag Valley formerly, and when the estate was sod he bought a lease on Tokarahi. He paid something for the goodwill. The lease in perpetuity was a good tenure for men of small mean?.

Two other settlers — Gallagher and Lester — were called upon to give evidence, but both tenants said that as they were quite content they did not desire to say anything.

The commission left at half-past 3 for Duntroon, by way of Maerewhenua Estate.