CONCILIATION BOARD.

Otago Witness, Issue 2454, 27 March 1901, Page 28

CONCILIATION BOARD.

A meeting of the Conciliation Board was held at the Supreme Couit on Monday; present — Messrs F. E. Chapman (chairman), G-. P. Farquhar, E. Ferguson, and J. A. Park. The dispute into which the boaid inquired was between th" Duuedm and Suburban Carters' Industrial Union of Workers and the employers of carters of Dunedin and suburbs. The union was represented by Messrs P. Hally, J.Hayraes (president), and D. M'lntyre (secretary). There were 166 employers cited, but less than a fourth of them were represented. A committee consisting of Messrs A. Keast, D. Mitchell, J. Bamett, E. F. Duthie (carters), G. Calder, W. Pryor, W. H. Holgate (tip-drays), A. Guthrie, J. C. Gunn, and P. Johnston (coal merchants) represented the following — New Zealand Express Company, Henry Guthrie, T. E. Shiel, \V. Dunford, Shag Point Coal Company, G. H. Burnett, John Brown, T. Champion, J. Longworth and Sons, Lovell's Flat Coal Company, J. M'Curdy, H. Carnie, Allan Johnston, Keast Bros., Dunedin and Suburban Coal Company, S. Dunkley and Co., A. Fletcher, Holgate and Aitchison, Johnston and Robertson, J. Macfie and Co , Pryor Bros, snd Co., Tonilinson and "Wilson, J. H. Spencer, J. Didham, H. F. Brenchley, J. Hill, J. Jonec, Strang Bro«., C. King, Gieig, Mitchell and Co., G. CaltJer, E. Spencer, and J. Mill and Co. Other employers present ueie — Crust and Crust, Thomson ar-d Co., A. and T. Ingha, E. Ellis, and A. Waugh. The o e were the employers present or represented when the sitting commenced. In answer to the Chairman, the Secretary of the uuion said that notice was served on all the employers through the Clerk of Awards. The statement filed by the union was as under -- " J. For driving single horse, £2 5s per -week; foe dmii g or attending to two horses, £2 10s per week. ''2. 'Llie horn" of labour to be 45 pei -week — from 8 o'clock in ike morning until 5 o'clock at night, taking or.c hour foi dinner each day for five days m the week, and working five hours one day in the week. " 3. All casual labour to be paid Is 3d per houi. ' 4. Overtime to be Is 3d per hour from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. , aftei 7 p.m., Is Gd p'u- hour. On the half-holiday, Is 3d per hour from 1 p.m. to 3 p.m. ; after 3 jp.ni., Is 6d per hour. "5. Holidays — Ist January, 2nd January, Good Friday, Easter Monday, Victoria. Day, Labour Day" King's Birthday, Christmas Day, and Boxing Day. " 6. The attending to_ horses in the morning and evening to cover the weekly ha If -holiday, and the attending to horses on Sundays to cover the geaera-1 holidays. " 7. All work on general holidays to be double pay"B. Preference of work to be given to union men." Mr Hally, in opening the case for the union, said he wished to explain that he was acting for the union at their urgent request. He proceeded to deal with the causes which led up to the dispute, and, speaking of the demands made by the nien, he remarked that there were few businesses in the city that were not more or less interested in the carrying or "transport of goods by horse traffic. This particular method of transit might be classed under four divisions. First, there were the large merchants. — timber, coal, soft goods, and provision ; secondly, there was the general carrier, whose business consisted in the conveyance of goods from the railway station, wharves, bonds, or wherever else his services might be required ; thirdly, there was the individual express or van proprietor, who employed no person except in a casual way; and the fourth class consists of a company, from whom vans, expresses, and horses may be hired to work for 3s or 4s per day. Although these divisions or classes had soni9 bearing upon, this dispute, yet it was only the first two who were directly interested in the case; the others did not to any extent employ any labour. Taking the first class, many of the men were engaged as carters by softgoods and general provision merchants, and no very great difficulty need be anticipated in dealing with them. Some, of the men employed at these places got more money than was asked for in the log, an,d »s the warehouses and bonds closed at 5 o'clock sharp the hours were as convenient as it was possible to moke them. In short, there was little complaint made by the employees of these firms. On. the other hand, there were numbers of men employed as carters in the coal and general carrying business in town whose lot was a very unenviable one. They started work in the morning at a very early hour, summer and winter, and finished any time up to 8 o'clock at night. This was not a general practice, but it was by no means an exceptional case, and as a consequence not only were these men worked excessively long hours, but their employers gained an unfair advantage over more legitimate traders, a3 they goi iii one sense almost two men's work for one man's pay. As for the wages paid to these men, there were some employers who paid their caiters a fair rate, and these men were contented with their portion, while another section of employers paid anything ranging from 15s per week, a rate ot wage which was no inducement (6r these men to remain honest very long. This was a grave consideration, as it must not be forgotten that these employees were not handling the goods of their employer. In many instances they were simply the agents of the public, and for that reason they should be paid si sufficient wage to enalile them to withstand the temptation of becoming dishonest, especially when so many opportunities presented themselves of being otherwise. Again, theie was perhaps no calling or trade in which the elements of danger to either life or property existed so much as with the people having charge of horses. Almost every day there were examples of accidents. Unfortunately, in Dunedin the rnaiii thoroughfares were not as wide as they might be, and as a result it often happened that in attempting to get dear of a van or tramcar private property was damaged, and sometimes injuries were inflicted on passersby. These were of course pure accidents, but they were often due to the incompetent or negligent driver, whose only recommendation for the position ef his cheap labour; and as numbers of these men had been coming into town of late it was thought advisable by some of the better clas3 of men employed as carters that in the interests of themselves and in the interests of their employers a union of carters should bw formed, and regulations as to wages and hours drafted. This had been done, and there had been no feeling of antagonism manifested by either party, as those most interested, no matter whether employers or emuloyee",, ajjK«ed that it was a step m the right

duection. In tiying to effect these ends correspondence had been resorted to between both p.uties, a conference had also been held, and statements had been considered ; but, uufortunptely, there was no unity or combination, and it was impossible to satisfy individual desires. Nothing of a satisfactory nature eventuated from these proceedings. Some of the employers were willing to accept the men's statement as a whole, others wished piovision made for old servants, another lot paid more than was asked and worked shorter hours, while yet anj other section found they could not possibly run their business under the regulations stipulated m the log. The union, under these circumstances, had no other alternative but to refer the matter to the board for arranging a settlement of the difficulty. The speaker then deaH exhaustively with each of ihc claims made by the union, 'adducing reasons why they should be allowed. Mr ToJcl, representing Messrs A. and T. Inglt", spid thar their carters weie entirety governed by the Shop Hours Act, and he therefore asked that th? name of A and T. luglis bo taken off the list The Chairman askeil if there were any oilier firms that claimcl to he so specially circuinstiinced. Mr A. Thon-son said he had a statement he j wished to make. The aerated water manufacturers c'aixned to have a particular trade, .mcl would like to be dealt with in a particular manner. It wa3 so dealt with in Wellington. He had the Wellington conctit.ons, vhich they wert willing to accept except that his firm would like a young fellow for one of th-ir special vans. In tb.p Wellington conditions the minimum wage was £2 ss, and his firm paid more Uran thst. Mr Thomson here read the following statement — "Th* aeiated water Irade is nearly altogether dependent on the state of t!ie weathei. In warm weather we are busy, m cold weather there is little doirg. We wou'd point out a few of the difficulties to b? met with in ke-ping regular hours. The botelkcepers ha'_e iuafle no provision for keeping large stocks of muicril waters, while othe-s wo aid not if they ha<l the room, the most of them depending on the vigJaice of the trade to keep them whui ths article is wantH. Should the U3atl.er suddenly turn waim, aurl stocks iuu lo v in hotels or stores, ill? caiters hstve to pu-h round in answer to inimcdiaie orders th.lou.3h the telephone for supplies to be delivered at once, so that on thes? occasions, ha'-mg to run here, there, and everywhere over the city end suburbs to kesp their customers gcing, it is LaiJ'y possible fov the carters to regulate their iiour of knocking oft" as can be done in breweries and other trades. Some hotclkeepers insist upon being supplied f»aily in the mouiing, as the empty bottles fiom the prcMous night's trade are lying about everywhere, ajicl prevent their servants fiom cleaning the place up thoroughly. We have frequent coii'pljmts made to us about ori carts not calling early enough in the morning. It is quite a common ocivmeiifc fUuiiig whai we call our busy season and or vmiui (lays to receive small orders at 1 ar.cl 5 o'c'.n k in tlie afternoon for immediate dehverv to Ril parts of the city at distances ranging iio:;i a nii'e to two or ihree miles. The busy sraso.i ranges generally from beginning of October to the end of March. If these orders were not delivered when wanted the goods might not be required at all, as the following day might lie a ce!3 one. In warm or hot weather the carts have to call on many of their customers, hotels and adores, two and even three times a day to supply full goods and take away the empties out of their way. As for some holidays, especially Christmas Eve sn~d New Year, we are practical ly delivering goods till +he hotels and stores closej and till private customers go to bed. ■' Durifg the busy season every assistance is given to the carters to cn»bie them to get through their work expeditiously and get finished in time. Last year one of the vans had an adult, assistant all the year round. This was an exceptional year, but in ordinary busy seasons they have an extra man for four months, and this minimises the labour considerably. With the exception of a week or two at Christmas time and New "Year we do not consider the work at all laborious. The heaviest weight they have to lift 13 about 601b, and dunne; the busiest &aason the work is alway3 ir.terraittent. " Our men aia practically their own masters, and can, bo to speak, make their own pace, and for months during the year could, on many occasions, get finished at midday if they wanted ing, and they are seldom in the stables before a quarter to 8 o'clock, and generally leave the stable about 6 o'clock at night. The light express work \isecl for the supply of stores and private houses during the busy season would not by any means be hard for a boy 18 years of age. and for this class of work it would not pay Hs> to pay the minimum wage asked for by the nnion. the union ask for a higher wage for the man who drives two horses. In o\ir trade we have always used one horse for our vans, but that class of horse got so scarce we had to use two of another and lighter class, and, so far as we are concerned, two horses do ho .more work now than one did formerly. As thare seeni3 to us to be a disposition on the part 01 the union to put fair and liberal employers on the same footing as the skinflint, you will, perhaps, allow us to point out tho treatment our own mer> leceive. Horses are fed for them in the mornuig; we have never on any occasion kept a shilling off our carters when sick; we have paid full wage 3to carters who were laid up close on two months, and this by an accident when cot at our work ; we give them a week during the dull season to make up for the overtime worked during the busy season. We do not redu»e wages nor men during the slack season, and for many months during that season we do not pay expenses. One carter has been with us 35 years, another 20. We do not know whether our meu belong to the \mion or not. We have placed before you the agreement accepted by the Wellington Union, and in that agreement che minimum wage is £2 ss ; no mention being made as to whether that wage is for driving one horse or six. We are told that house rents and living geneially are much higher in Wellington than Dunedin. If this is so then our offer is a fair and hbsial one, and we trust the board will lecommend, and the Dunedin and Suburban Carters' -Union will accept, the proposal made by the Dunedin aerated water makers." In concHlsion, Mi Thomson aaid that he had not the slightest doubt that what the board lecommeuded in his firm's case would be accepted by the other firms in the same line of business. The Chairman asked what other class of employers claimed special conditions. Mr Owen, as chairman of the committee, said that the employers were divided into three classes — namely, coal dealers, tip draymen, and general carriers. A conference had been held between the employers and the union, and there was an agreement concerning most things. It was thought, when "they separated, that those things about which they could, not agree were to be referre-d back to the union, and the employers would have been quite ready to meet the -union again. The employers, however, were greatly astonished -when they got a peremptory letter Btating "that the matter would be referred to the Conciliation Board. Mr Harraway said he claimed to occupy a special position. He was not a member of the Employers' Association, and he was not in either Dunedin or the suburbs. The circular sent out by the union declared that he wa3. He had only one carter, who drove five horses, so that he was not piqvided foi at all in the claims of the union*

Mr Hally said that the cailer would be treated as a man who diove two t-i more horses. Mr Hanaway said ho had only one waggon on the road. The cartel had r'o particularly hard -uork to do. He received £2 10s a week, and a3 he had to come in with the cart a lon^ distance it -Xab simply impossible to obbc:n c the conditions demanded by tho \uuon. Mi- Hally said that the employers moisted upon Mr Harraway being included. b\vt peisonahy he thought that the special eirctimstanecs of his case rendered it unnecessary that he should be called upon. The Chairman 3aid that the boaid would considei these special claim«. Mr Dnthie said that the union had cited such firms as Mackerras and Hazlett, Scoullar and Chisholm, etc., who weie purely meichants, and not in any sense carters, and the cmployeis* committee weie well aware that there were special ciicutn stances in connection with thpdeliveiy of their goods. For instance, m regard, to, say," Speight and Co., there was considerably, more tiouble in placing barrels into cellars than 111 dehveimg goods m the way carters did. It was a case of special work and special men. Then there" were in the town 25 to 30 men who weie independent carters, and 50 or 60 expressmen in direct opposition to his firm, and they were not cited by the union. The ChauiHan said that the co\irt had no authority over those. Mr DiiLlne said that if the union could arrange some scheme to bring those people in. aud conform to the same conditions sought to be imposed on the employers cited, doubtless an amicable anangement could soon be arrived at Mr Kaily The same difficulties crop up in every rase. The Chairman • Yes, but we cannot ignore them. Mr Duthie then replied on behalf of the committee to Mr Hally's opening statement The union held, he taid, that 111 the coal trade it was necessaiv to start veiy early in the morning, and m many instances to finish late afc night. There were three coal masters on the committee who said that this was nol correct. Then, again, as to Mr Hally's statement that one employer only paid 15= a week, the committee held that that was a -direct slur on the whole of the employers. The union should name the employer aiid substantiate the statement, or withdraw it. Then as to the preponderance of accidents m the carrying tiade, he contended that the occupation was not one in which there was a great liability to accident, certain?y not so great as m those emplovnients where ma:bi:ievy was utilised. Then Mr Hally said that ihf> mi. on had endeavoured to meet the employers and settle the dispute. Well, Mr Owen had nlreadv replied to that statement. The executive of the union had discussed the items withxthe representative of the employers, and tho pailiea practically agreed on the principal items-. A 9 to the points regarding which there was dispute, it was understood by the ernjvovers that tl:e=;e were referred back to the lU'ion. to be subsequently brought up again fo- consideration between the executive and the committee. Then the union contended that tho v.-Rgp>- cVi.ianded by them were con&iderablv less than the wages paid in -other trades. Tha speaker pointed out in le-ply to tins that there was a considerable difference in the la bow bctwpeii those engaged in the carrying htisiness £a:d the k'ci: employed in t'ro vaTioirs store 5*5 * and whisrv-fs. owing to the intermittent natures of the foir-iFT work. In the stores a. man vr? i simiAx i-'rtid for Ihe actual houis work^c 1 . "wheieaj, 111 the case r of the carter, it he turae I oat iv the morning he was paid for the cla? . II the wharf sheds were shut down at 4 o'clcck there was often difficulty in employing all the -hands till 5 o'clor-k, and in coneeqaience a serious loss wa3 entailed. Then there was a great difference in the nature of the work. The cartel* did not have to perform nearly the amount of labour a wharf hand was called upon to do. The carter was three-fourths of his time riding" back and forward in his dray. Mr Hally had urged that any loss the employers might sustain in complying with the demands of theunion could be made ud from the public by increasing the rates. That was impossible 111 many respects, more especially in connection with the railway contract with his firm, which had yet 12 months to expire. The contract provided that current wages should be xsaid. Ib had been laid down in a court of law that the current rate of wages was JS2 a week, and yefv the employes were, really demanding 50 percent, of an increase. It would be , impossible to make the public pay an extra cha-rge to cover this increase when there weae some 30 or 4^ carters doing the same class of work ar.cl we: a not bound by the award of the court. Then th=» union said that there had been a conference oc employers, at which it was agieed to reducethe wages. All that he (the speaker) could say about this wc>s that it was the first he had: heard of it, and he would be glad if the umoa would substantiate that statement. In legarct to the contention that cartels were called iipo 1 to work late hours, the principal places closed at 5 o'clock, and while a few retailers might j> - cept a few packages very little busmess could be done after that hour. As to the half-holiday . the employers had no serious objection to i*> if it cou'd be arranged; but the speaker pointed out that the retailers closed on Wednesday afternoon p.nd the wholesale houses on Satu.day?, and as the carrying business was dependent on the shipping and general public i-e could not see how it could be brought abou\ As a matter of fact, when the tiade was slack, and the men had little to do, there was no exception made in the matter of their wages, and when tho patriotic movement was on, and a. number of half-holidays were held, the men were always paid in full. In regard to casual hands, for which <he union demanded Is 3d an hour, the committee thought that this was exoibitant. The em plovers were quite prepared! to pay Is an hour, which was the ordinary rata paid to labourer*. The statement made by tho union that his firm had one-third regular employes and two-thirds casuals was not coneci. He would be prepared to show that the present staff was composed of 36 peimanent hands and 28 casuals*. So fiu as the coal business was concerned, there was a great discrepancy between the summer and winter traffic, and, owing to the custom of the trade, there was a big rusk at the beginning of the month, while at the latter end trade was quiet. In conclusion, he would just point out that the tip-carteis' trade was affected by the weather, and the general can vine lmsiness was clepencle-nt on the steamers. Mr Ca'dei spoke in regaid to tip-carter?. whose work, he said, was greatly affeoted by the weather. In some weather they could not work at all. It was lighter work than that performed by tho*e engaged in the quarries. If the men who drove were paid 7s a day for tho days they were working, it was as much as the employers could do. Mr Pryo'r <*a:d that the objection to a weekly wage was the nubility of the men to always give legular woik to their emp'oyers. ' Mr Guthrie spoke 111 reference to the coal caiters. He said that the man who had to drive one horse had more to do than iie wbo drove two. His firm gave the men the weekly halfholiday. Mr Macfie said that his firm never stopneci a half-holiday off their men's wages. The stable work was light there being always a man to look aftex the stables night and moinhtg. The men who drove the single-horse drayd had the hardest work. The demands of the union would press hardly on the employers because they would not affect a lot of carters who did a, casual coal trade independent of firms and weie not bound by any hours. ' Mr Hally aaid that the iudepeudeat caxtC2»

lad a union of their own, and lie would call evidence to prove that they had a regular scale of rates, and did not work late hours. Mr Spencer, president of the union composed ©f independent carters, gave evidence that if the members of their union, 22 in number, •worked after 6 o'clock they charged extra rates. charges were greater than those of the "employers. They nad to pay Is a ton more for the coal. The Chairman suggested that as both parties had discussed the questions in dispute very amicably they might be able to come to an understanding if they had another conference. Mr Hally thought another conference would only mean unnecessary delay, as the union felt they could make no further abatement on their claims. Under these circumstances the further hearing was adjourned till 11 o clock next day.