THE BANKING BILL.

Otago Witness, Issue 2318, 4 August 1898, Page 12

THE BANKING BILL.

Wellington, July 27. la the House of Representatives last evening, consideration of the Banking Bill, in Committee, was rctmrred. The Hon. Mr ROLLE3TON, as a protest agaicsb the bill, which he looked upon as a most undesirable and unnecessary measure, na vtd to report progress, and ask leave to sit a gaiu. He also desired to lest whether the preeidtiit should be heard before the bill was gi.ne on with. The PREMIER hoped time would not be wasted. A majority in the House, with himEelr, honestly believed the bill necessary in the inteicsts of the bank and the country, and, as r.irjoiibies imvt rule, ifc was to be hoped that Lo&incas would be allowed to prccesd in ,-v Lmimsslike vray to (ho point of which he bai ppoken in the afternoon. He was even willing: io recommit the bill, fo tbub if members rlr s'lvd it one director could bo elected by the Council aud one by the House, instead of four Iw-h'g nominated by the Goveruor-in-Counc-1. Port on&liy he had no desire to possess tho patronage f aid to appertain to tiie nomination of f uur dm ctoro by tho Governor-in-Council. After d'sruseion, the motion to report progreps wai negatived by 39 to 21. Tr.e following is the divi&iou list : —

Ayes. — Messi'3 Bollard, Buchanan, Caison, Duthie, F.assr, Hunter, Kelly, Lang, Lethl)ilitre, Lewis, M'Gnire, Scobie Mackenz'e, K. M il'-v/Ae, M Lean, Massey, Moire, Pirani, Rolkston, Russell, J. W. Thomson, Wright. Nor.s.— Messrs E. G. Allen, Ct.Unan, Cariicros», Orowther, Duncan, Flatman, Gilfedder, Graham, Hall Jones, Il«gg, Holland, Hm^tou, Joyce, Ivaihau, I/awry, Sl'Gowan, J. M'Kenzio, M'Nab, Mciodith, M'llar, Milh, Monk, Montgomery, MorrUc-D, O'Meara, O'Kegau, Parata, Pere, Seddon, fc nutli, Stevens, Steward, Symes, Tanner, Taylor, R. Thompson, T. Thompson, Ward, Wilson.

Consideration of tho bill was then proceeded with.

On clause 6, Csptaiu RUSSELL proposed an addition, to the eff cfc thab lbs president should be paid tuck compensation as he might be held to be entitled fco by a court) of competent jurisdiction.

Mr PiRANI pointed oub thab it would be necessary to decide what they were to do wibh the effice of president before they provided for compensation. The PREMIER categorically recounted the reasons previously given at various stages of the debate for the abolition cf tie preaidentFbip, ai;d said the proposed changes were all favourable to economy and improved manigcmenb.

Mr. DUTHIE held that the Premier had not made out a case for the change he was pioposing in the management of the bank, which Le had BPriously injured by his treatment, and the sooner the country got rid of the whole concern the better.

Captain RUSSELL held that the proposed directorate would be semi-political in character, and that the management of tbe bank would thus hi 6ubjecr, more or less, to political ihflaerc. The name influence interfered with continuity iv tbo bank's mauagcaiLnt. Mr BUCHANAN maintained thab the Premier had given no solid business rer.son whattv< r for the abolition of the presidentship, but only a succession of platitudes and hypothetical instances.

The abolition oi the office of president was carried on the voices, and ib was further agreed that all references to him, his effico, or fuLCjions iv "The Bauk cf New Zealand Guarantee Act, 189 Vor any amendment thereof, other than the present" bill, be deemed to bo repealed. In discussing Captain Russell's proposal to compensate the president, the PREMIER quoted from Ihe original acts to show tb&fc compensation had not been contemplated, and under all the circumstances ho objected to introduce it into the bill, or anything else calculated to coinmib the colony to contingent iiabi ifcies wLich might prove to be of a serioug character.

Captain RUSSELL said ho was anxious to lest the qucßtiou whether they were to pay the president a year's salary, as proponed in the bill, or whether compensation should be fixed by a competent ami impartial tribunal. The Commillee divided on Captaiu Russell's amendment :— -Ayes; 18; Noee, 39. Mr MILLAR proposed thab the president should be tffered two years' salary instead of one year'?, as proposed in the bill. The PREMIER said thab he bad considered the question opened up by the proposal, bufc would adhere to the bill rb brought down, though he would nob treat the bill as a party meaeure, and tho Committee would, of course, be free to follow its own course.

Mr SCOBIE MACKENZIE said it v*s mere huckstering lo offer tho president only oue

[ year's salary, and soma court should decide what was equitably due to the president, i Mr MONTGOMERY would agree to two years' salary, because it was probable that the president would get more if he went into a. court of justice with the case. Members, generally supported the proposal aa a reasonable compromise. Mr MONK said that in order to acb reasonably in the matter the House should have an actuary's valuation of the president's claims to guide ifc. The Committee divided— Ayes, 37 ; Noes, 22. Progce?B was reported, and the House rose at 115 July 26. I In the House of Representatives this ovening, as the House was about to go into Committee to further consider the Banking Bill, Captain RUSSELL desired to move that before being further proceeded with the measure should bo referred lo the Public Accounts Committee. The SPEAKER pointed out that this could not be done except with the consent ot the member in chaige of the bill. The Premier not consenting, the bill was taken in Committee. On clause 5, as to the election of two directors by the shareholders, Mr BUCHANAN said no cause was shown for the change in the government of the bank, and he would vote against the bill at every stage of its progress. Captain RUSSELL was proceeding to discuss the object of the bill, but the chairman ruled it was not competent to go beyond the specific proposal made in regard to the ! clause under consideration. Captain Riihsoir then moved that the chairman leave the chair, j so as to be able to discuss the general question of the purpose of the bill. Quoting from tho Premier's past eulogistic references to the president and directors, he asked, Why this change of front? "What was it that caused the Premier to wish to change the whole government of the bank? It was in order to ascertain that in a rational and busi-ness-like manner that he wished the bill leferred to the Public Accounts Committee or some other competent parliamentary tribunal.

The PREMIER stud Captain Russell was only going over ground which had been covered on Friday night, and the motion could serve no purpose except lo on tail another all-round discussion. As to the question of an inquiry, the bill was the result of an inquiry which had shown the necessity for the propor-ed legiblation, and members of the House knew the change was necessary. They all knew, too, that the Committee of Inquiry had unanimously recommended that the presidentship should be abolished. Besides, if things went on on the present basis the colony would, in course of years, find the bank where Parliament had found it not so long ago. The spirit of economy was absent from its management in respect to buildings and other matters. As to the distribution of directors under the bill, the object was to havo the various parts of the colony represented on the directorate. Auckland had monopolised in that respect in the past Avith disastrous results, and there was, danger of similar consequences ensuing in the evczit' of Wellington dominating the directorate. He made no charge, against the present directors or the president, but held that on the grounds of general policy there should be a change. Mr BUTHIE said the report referred to by the Premier was made by the Committee of another Parliament two years ago, and he did not think that was sufficient to justify the coin-be now proposed by the Premier. Personally, he thought that matters connected with tho management required investigation — for example, the deceptive balance sheet, involving an item of £53,000, referred to by him on Friday night. .But these were all arguments in favour of the bill being referred to a Committee instead of being gone on with by the House. Mr SL'OBIE MACKENZIE was saddened by tho spectacle afforded by the Premier in taking up a position so much at variance with that which he formerly occupied in relation to the management of tho bank. There was no valid reason for such a change, al least tho only one the Premier himself assigned was that the dhectors wanted to spend £40,000 on new buildings and that the bank was competing with its own customers by buying wheat and so forth. Last year, however, tho Premier had said it was a good thing for the bank to buy, as thereby it broke up a "corner." Mr ERASER explained that the £58,000 spoken of by Mr Duthie was the residue of a sum, the writing down of which had saved the bank a large amount in yearly interest. Mr FISHER said that he would support the bill as a whole, but lie did not think the president receh ed sufficient conoid under it. He either should receive adequate monetary compensation for the loss of office or he should be set free to carry his case ii'to the Supremo Court. He thought, too, that tho bill would be improved by a new clause to effoet " tbat notwithstanding anything contained in any Batik of New Zealand Act or acts it shall be the duty of the auditor or auditors lo the bank to report annually to Parliament upon the financial condition relatively to the bank of any firm, individual, or company doing business with the bonk, which may at the lime of such annual report be in a position of insolvency or liquidation, and showing also in every such annual report the total airprr.giite loss to tho bank during the last five jcar» thro i;r!i t'.e insolvency or liquidation of such firm, individual, or company. " Mr MASSEY paid the purchase of wheat which had been referred to as having been made by the bank was a scandal and a disgrace to every one connected with it, and had been made m order to lower tho price of that grain throughout the colony. As to the bill, he thought "it should ro to the Public Accounts Committee before being proceeded with in the House.

Mr O'RI'IUAN said he had been m favour of the bill, but if tho Premier adianeed no better reasons than some ho had used as to tho bank's buying whoat and such matters, he would bo lod to oppose llio bill. Mr M'IIOWAN maintained that it was f,hcor waf-to of t into to talk about referring tho bill to tho Public Accounts Committee, seeing that the whole of the subiect matter had already been inquired into in that way.

Mr TAYLOR held ihoy liad ne\cr got to the bottom of the hanking business, bcraus-o tho Premier had taken caie they should not, and he was still so determined. He (Mr Taylor) was, however, entirely with the Piomicr in the strong exception ho took lo the bailie's extravagance in the maltor of new buildings. At the same time all he had seen in connection with the banking bUsineps -Had caused him to modify his cherished theories as to a State bank, which, to judge by recent and current experience, would prove a tremendous engine of corruption. Mr AVASON considered it would be a wasto of time to refer the bill to the Public Accounts or any other committees, and hoped tho House would get on with the measure. Ho certainly thought the office of president should be abolished, and that its present occupant

should receive two years' salary by way o? compensation. Mr CROWTHER believed the whole matter was in process of simplification, as he had heard that day that the president was willing to withdraw from the office if he were paid two or three years' silary. Mr TAYLOR said that in connection with the Bank of New Zealand legislation people had been bought by money, or shareo, or other consideration, and if the present president wore to be compensated for loss of office the country's last chance of getting to the bottom of the whole business, of the mistakes of some people and the roguery of other?, would bo lost.

The PREMIER declared that such rliargesj os thode alluded to by Mr Taylor were absolutely without foundation in fact. As to tho inquiry asked for, it was only another name for delaying the bill, and to that he would on no account be a parly. Mr SLIGO hoped there was no foundation for the statement that the president was now willing to retire and say nothing, if he were paid two years' salary, for the president was in a position to give information which was needed by the country. As to the bill, he probably could not prevent its becoming law, but ho held that the Premier had not given reasons which justified the change proposed by the bill. Mr KELLY thought it was necessary to pass the bill, even at the risk of bringing political elements into the management of tha bank.

The Hon. J. M'KENZIE pointed out that a committee inquiry had shown the bill to be necopsary, and subsequent, experience showed that" tho necessity still existed. - In view of these facts, it was superfluous" to maintain that there should be a further inquiry before proceeding with the bill. The fact,' too, that the bank hail bought wheat to compete with fanners was in itself a btrons; argument against the bank's existing methods of management. Personally, he thought the sooner the bank was sold, and the country got rid of the whole concern, the better for all parties. Mr M'GUIRE entirely agreed with thi3 ■view.

Captain Russell's motion was :iegt\. l ivod on tho voices.

Tho Committee proceeded with consideration of clause 5, which was pa&aed with verbal amendments.

On clause 6, which, amongst other things dealt with the abolition of the office of president,

The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON moved to report progress, iv order to teat tho question whether the clause should not be referred to the Public Accounts Committee, when the president could be heard. Mr Roll 6j ton also expressed the opinion that tho C4overnmont should endeavour to dispose of tho bank to some syndicate. The PREMIER expressed his determination to proceed with the bill as it stood, especially in reference to the presidentship, and Mr ttolleston's proposal would only cause delay. Mr R. THOMPSON thought the president should have gone years ago, but if he had arijfc, thing to say it was right lie should have an opportunity. > Mr MONTGOMERY thought the president should have an opportunity of saying 1 whatever he had to state in reference to tho banking legislation, though personally he considered the presidentship should ,be abolished. Mr J. HUTCTIESON hold that the president should be heard before being 1 - dealt with, as proposed in the hill.

Mr SOOBIK MACKENZIE argued that if the president • wore to go before the committee lie could make no sensational disclosures, but only statements concerning liis own actions and position. That was shown by the context of the president's own recent circular. Mr Rolleslon's motion was carried by 31 to 30. The following is the division li&t: —

Ayes (31). — Bollard, Brown, Buchanan, Carson, Crowther, Duthie, Fraser, Hermes, J. Hutchesoii, G-. Hutchison, Kelly, Lang, Lethbridge, 11'Guirej Scobie Mackenzie, M'Lean, M'Nab, Massey, Montgomery, Moore, Pirani, Rolleston, Russell, Sligo, Smith, Tanner, Taylor, R. Thompson, J. W. Thomson, "Wason, Wilson. Noes (30).— E. G-. Allen, Cadman, Camcross, Duncan, Fisher, Flatman, Gilfedder, Graham, Hull-Jones, Hogg, Holland, Joyce, Kaihau, Larnach, Lawry, M'Gowan, Meredith. Mills, Millar, Morrison, O'Menra, O'Eegan, Pere, Sedclon, Stevens, Steward, Symes, Thompson, Ward. [Note. — Only 29 namp3 have been telegraphed as having voted with tho Noes.l