THE DUNEDIN PRESBYTERY AND MR J. RYLEY.

Otago Witness, Issue 2262, 8 July 1897, Page 30

THE DUNEDIN PRESBYTERY AND MR J. RYLEY.

At Tuesday's meeting of the Dunerin Presbytery the question of the action of the presbytery with reference to the demission from the ranks of the ministers of Mr John Ryley was raised and discussed.

The Rsv. Mr Finl\ysdn (the clerk of presbytery) said he hal received from Mr J'hn Ryley a complaint to the effect that in th-i report of the presbytery'i.proaeedings his letter did not appear. He (Mr Finlayson) sent to Mr Ryley, in reply, a full leport of what tbo presbytery had done, including Mr Ryley's own letter. Mr Ryley, however, suggested that '< the clerk should publish the report in tho newspapers. He (Mr Finlayson) did no 1 ; pea his way to do so, but he had published Mr Ryley 'a | letter, and that had led to a public corre- j "t>ondence. j The Rev. J. Gibb said he thought it very desirable in the interests of the presbytery aad tor the vindication of the clerk's action that the clerk 6hould give a succinct accoanfc to the presbytery of the steps which had been taken, including, amongst other things, the motion which ib had been proposed to submit to the presbytery, in which it was proposed to libel I Mr Ryley ; telling the presbytery pl*inly, and 1 through the presbytery the pubHc, that the motion had been submifclei, aud that Mr Ryley's letter had been written in full view of the fact that he had seen the motion and was j informed that & considerable number of the 1 members of the presbytery would support it. ! He thought that such a statement should be j made now. | The Rev. A. Cameron was of opinion that j this business hart been closed and that it would be both undignified und improper to reopen it, simply because there had been certain correspondence in the^ papers about it. The Moderator said rhs case was ah extraordinary one, aud a great many people imagined that Mr Ryley had been wrongail in a very ] serious way. He did not lhii>k is would be im- j proper for the presbytery tj vindicate itself. The Rev. A. Cameron was of opinion that 1 the presbytery was not released from its under- | taking because Mr Ryley had written to the Times, and ought not to ignore its former promise. He moved that the presbytery proceed to the next business. I The Moderator : Mr Ryley has made a. com- ! plaint. He has complained to the clerk that his letter to the presbytery waa not published. The Rev. W. Hewitson : To the clerk or to Mr Fiulayson ? The Rev. J. Gibb moved that Mr Finlayson be requested to make a short statement. They need not discuss it. The RW. D. Borrie seconded Mr Cameron's , motion, which, after a discussion as to procedure, was voted upon. Nine voted for and nine against, and the moderator gave his casting vote against the motion. The Rev. J. Gibb then moved his motion, which was seconded by the Rev. D. Dutton and carried by 10 to 9, the moderator on this occasion not voting. Tho Rev. A. M. Finiayson accordingly made a statement. He sa : d that to understand the position it would be necefSiry to go as far back as Mr Ryley's resignation of the 16th March, 1892 — his resignation of the church at Port Chalmers, which was accepted. It was then requested by the congregation th»t Mr Ryley should be continued as a minister and have a seat in presbytery and synod. That; suggestiou raised some difficulty in the presbytery, and there were three motions bearing on the point. The firet wa3 to refer the matter to the synod simpliciter ; the second, to appoint a committee to consider the matter ; the third, to recommend the synod to retain Mr Ryley in the i ministry. 'After discussion the second of these j motions waa withdrawn, and the third was carried as against- the first by a vote of 11 to 6. That was to say tho presbytery at i that time were of opinion that Mr Ryley I 6hould be retained in the Ministry. The i next step was on the 3rd of August, 1892, when Mr Ryley applied for a presbyterial certificate. That was granted at the suc- | cceding- meeting, on the 16th August. That j certificate seemed to have intercepted the appli1 cation to the synod recommending that Mr I Ryley be continued as a minister ; at any rate there was no further record of anything being done 'by cither the presbytery or the synod in the direction of retaining him as minister. The next ptJmt was that on the> 7th July. 1896, Mr Ryley returned his presbyterial certificate, and the occasion of his returning it was that he had become bankrupt. He mentioned that in his note. He was asked to explain what he meant by returning it, and he wrote a letter explaining in the' following terms :—: — Dunedin. 3rd August, 1898. Air Finlayson, clerk of Dunedin Presbytery. Dear Sir,— Your letter came duly to hand, and in reply I beg to say that my reason for returning the certificate was two-fold :— (1) I had a feeling that a bankrupt has no right, so long as his bankruptcy lasts, to hold such credentials ; and (2) I wished to remove the possibility of the certificate being used to secure entrance into any other church in the event of my leaving Dunedin or the colony. This is the only explanation I can

Rive for my action, and I hope it will prove satisfactory to the presbytery. — I am, yours f-iithfully, i John Rylei\ ! At the meeting at which this letter was received — on the 4-bh August — a committee was appointed to consider the legal aspects of Mr Ryley's position. That committee did no& make much of their work. They brought up a report, ; the effect of which was that Mr Ryley 'a letter was I informal and that it should b9 held in retentis, I and it was simply laid on the table. That state J of affairs stood until the 6bh of April, 1897, when a committee was appointed to inquire into the position of Mr Ryley in relation to the church. , That comm tfcee reported on the Mh of May. I "He might explain that the committee had two meetings. At the first there was a sort of understanding come to between Mr Ryley , and the cqmenittea that in the event of his agreeing to certain things, and also stipulating with the committee that he would not do ctrtain thiDgs, the case mighb corns tv an end. But at the second meeting of the committee no letter hud been received from Mr Itvley — the letter had, however, been posttd to Wastati, — and the committee recommended the presbytery to procsed as follows :—: — ; That, considering that Mr Ryley voluntarily left the work of th" ministry to engage in v beoular ! calling, that he had indulged in reckless speoula- ', tion, and hiul incurred liabilities which he could j not reasonably expect to meet, and that much I scandal had been caused to the church : Reiolv^d to suspend him sine die from the office of ; minister. A letter from Mr Ryley was also laid upon the I fable. It was agreed by the p-esbyfcery to receive the report, and they resolved to consider : it on the first Tuesday in June, Mr Ryley to ba 1 cited to appear for his interests. That was on ' the 4-th of M*y. The committse ineo a second tinre with Mr Ryley, and had a long conversation wifch him, and the report at the meeting of the Ist June was as tollowa :—: — Your committee had a long conference with Mr Ryley, at the close of which he agreed to address a letter to tho moderator of ths presbytery in the following terms:— "As theie seems to be some doubt regarding ray relation with the church, I beg to shale that since going into busiuess I have regarded myself as a private member of the church, and continue to so regard myself, and I ' have to request you to declare accordingly." The presbybery accordingly resolved : The presbytery, having heard the report of the committee, declai-a that Mr John Ryley has j ceased to be and is no longer a minister of the church. It would be noticed th&t the question of Mr Ryley's relation to th« ministry of the church was a difficulty all along, and there was not anything like an authoritative and final definition of it until the last meeting of presbytery. There was a difference of opinion at the time of the resignation, and that*, difference seemed to have ex>sted all along. The resolution of presbjtsry at the last meeting seemed to him (Mr Finlayton) not to be formal censure of any kind. It seemed to him that there was behind tnab resolution, or behind the mind of the prasbytery in coming to it, tha thought that if Mr Ryley waa a minister of the church it would be necessary for- the presbytery to make inquiry into the matters which the committee of the presbytery supposed had caused the scandal. That was the situation. If Mr Ryley was a minister the presbytery must; inquire into it ;' if not a minister, the preabybery must declare it, and the presbytery did declare it. Then at the time of the resignation five years »go a majority of the presbytery thought that Mr Ryley was, or should, be continued as a minister ; while at the la9t jaeeting (in June) the presbytery thought; he was not and had nob been a minister. There was an inconsistency in these two positions. The presbytery had changed their mind "somehow. The Rev. W. Will did not think so. Mr j Rjley had asked the presbytery to declare so- ' and-so, and they declared that he had ceased to | be ami was no longer a minister, but they made j no reference whatever to the past. ! The Ray. A. Cameron : Ycu say " has cessed to be." The Rev. W. Wilt, : I take it to mean from that date. " j The llev. A M. Finlayson thought the resolution 'of the presbytery must be read along i with Mr Ryley's letter, and in that letter he j stated that from the time he entered into busi- i ness he had ceased to bo a minister — at least, if he did not say that, he did say that he regarded himself as a private member. At the time of the resignation the presbytery seemed to think that Mr Ryley could b?. in business and at the siuae time hold the status of a minister. The ! presbytery now seemed to ho.d a different view. Tne resolution at the last mooting of presbytery ] meant, he (Mr Finlay*on) thought, that when j Mr Ryley entered into business ho at the same j time ceased to be a minister of the church. That appeared to him to be the formal position of affairs. Mr Reid said if that was intended it was not expressed. It should have been, " ceases to be, i and now is no longer," &b. The Rev. I. Jolly said the question seemed to him to be simply, Was Mr Ryley's letter entirely voluntary — for that was the suggestion J Mr Ryley had made —or did Mr Ryley's willingness to consider his first letter a letter of demission come when it wai proposed to proceed by libel ? The Rev. J. Gibb said that was the whole point. Mr Rylfty had written to the paper alleging that the clerk of presbytery had treated him unjustly, and th&t bis severance from the ministry of the Prenbyterian Church had bsen purely voluntary, and he had submitted a letter addressed to the moderator in vindication of the statement that he had himself taken the initiative ; th&t, in fact, his getting out of the ministry was entirely of his own volition. As a matter of sober fact, in the committee Mr Ryley was extremely unwilling to come to any euch agreement as that proposed, and it was only whea it was pub clearly to him that if he did not take thi* action, and so get the presbytery out of a difficulty, then in all probability a motion proposing to libel and to depose him from tha ministry would be submitted to the consideration of the presbytery. They told Mr Ryley frankly that they did not know whether they would be able to carry that motion ; in view of the fact ] that he (Mr Ryley) had come off all right in the civil courts there was a doubt ; but he was plainly told — every member of committe, he '■ (Mr Gibb) thought, said so — that they believed it would be their duty to bring up such a ! motion, that in all probability the presbytery [ would take it up, and if it did they would do their utmost to carry it, and such a motion ■would mean either suspension sine die or his deposition from the ministry of the Presbyterian Church. It was after that that Mr Ryley came to the conclusion that he would write the lettsr. The Rev. W. H. Ash thought that should I be brought out— that it did not follow, because ! a jury had declared Mr Ryley free from a legal ■ point of view, that & jury of the church would j declare him free from a clerical point cf view. ; The Rev. A. Cameron asked whether it was ; intended to have this statement published. ! The Rev. J. GiBB-said the reporters had been present during the discussion, and the matter had not been taken in committee, and ib, therefore, could not rest with the presbytery as to whether it wculd be published or not.

I The Rev. A. Cameron thought it an extraI ordinary thing for the presbytery to publish this i statement as their defence. Mr Finlayion had I siid that a sub-committee wss appointed to I ascertain Mr Ryley's relation to the church, ] and that that committee brought up a report, '• not as to Mr Ryley's relation to the church, bub as to what the presbytery ought to do. That surely was extraordinary. He (Mr i Cameron) was not aware that they were aupointed simply ro ascertain Mr Ryley's relation to the church. What was issued now was not a statement of the history of the case as seen by the presbytery, but a statement of the case as transacted at a private meeting of the committee — a conversation carried ou with Mr liyiey in private. Was that honourable? If the motion were carried he should certainly protest against it. The Rev. J. Gibb : The motion is carried. The Rev. A. Cameron : What motion ? The Ray. J. Gibb : Tfcab Mr Finlayaon address the presbytery. The llev. D. Borrie : Bat surely it was the presbytery's province to say whether they accepted Mr Finlaygon's statement. He for one hold it was not a correct statement. Mr Ryley was a minister up to the time of the bankruptcy, he held the certificate of the presbytery, and could have been called to any of the congregations. compromise waa entered into because io was seen that it gob them out of !11 difficult situation. They felb that, it would I be uowiae to go into the matter of libel, and therefore accepted Mr Ryley's statement of the position that he should no longer be considered ,a minister. Tne Rev. A. Cameron : It is not to b9 understood that the presbytery accept this aB a correc'; statement of the history of the case. I protast againist it. f The Moderator : I think we had better pass to the nexfc business. The Key. W. Will : Not a correct statement in what respect ? The Rev. A. Cameron : I do not agree with the ata f ement that the presbytery changed their mind. That stattm-nt is simply calculated to caricature the presbytery and make it a li.ugb.ing stock. Tne Rev. W. Will said he regarded Mr Ry ley's communication to the presbytery as being a declaration on his part that he had ceased to be a minister of the chsrch — (A. Voice : " When ? ") ;— that he laid no claim to ba & minister, but regarded himself as having demitted the status of a minister. The prasbytery had agreed to acept Mr Ryley's res'geation of ministerial status, as communicated by latter, as sufficient to terminate the c»sc ; and instesd of proceeding to trial, wfiatever ihe consequences might have been, were very glad I to accept this as sufficient to meat all the ends of discipline and terminate the case. Therefore they said he had ceased to ba a minister af fer this communication from him, which was a declaration that he in no sense claim-id to have ministerial standing, and declared that he I had ceased to be and no longer waa a minister of the Presbyterian Church. The Rev. A. Cameron said that was what ha j also understood to bs the position ; but that wa3 not the statement mide by the clerk, and he protested against the statement the clerk had made goiug forth as the statement of the presbytery. The Rev. A. M. Finlayson said that all he had minuted was "The clerk then made a statement." I This concluded the matter 1 .