THE VICTORY CHANNEL.

Otago Witness, Issue 2250, 15 April 1897, Page 11

THE VICTORY CHANNEL.

! THE SHIPPING COMPANIES AND THB HAKBOUR BOARD. I At the meetißg of the Harbour Board on Thurej day afternoon, the following letter was read ■ from the secretary of the Dunedin Chamber of ; Commerce :—: — j Dunedin Chamber of Commerce, 1 Dunedin, Cth April, 1897. The Secretary Otago Harbour Board, Dunedin, Dear Sir, — I am instructed by my committee to forward, fortheinformationof yourboard, copiesof letters received from the New Zealand Shipping Company and the Shaw, Savill, ancl Albion Company, with reference to the res-olution passed by this chamber in December last ; aud to ask if you will be good enough to supply the latest information as to the condition of the channel. — I am, dear eir, yours faithfully, Peter Bare, Secretary. Dunedin, 2nd April , # 1897. The Secretary Dunedin Chamber of Commerce. Dear Sir, — At your request w<s forwarded the following resolution of the chamber to our London office :— " That official notification be sent to the London offices of the Shaw-Savill and New Zealand Shipping Companies of the vigorous efforts the Harbour Board are making to deepen the Victoria channel, and the anticipated results of these efforts ; that it be represented to these companies the hardship, loss, ana inconvenience importers will suffer as the le^ult of the proposed eh >nge, and that they be asked to reconsider their decision, and at leaßt delay the carrying out of the new policy, say for a year, until the results of the board's operations can be tested." Our London manager requests us to say, in reply, that the

resolution was fully considered by the company's directors, and he was requvatsd to inform us that they regretted being umible to recommend any ' modification of the decision to cease booking to Dunedin while the Victoria channel remained in I its present unsatisfactory condition. j While sending you the above reply it might be ] as well to call the attention of the chamber to the | fact that on the 15th Decf-mber last Mr Mac- | kerrae, a prominent member of the Harbour [ Board, gave the chamber an emphatic assurance that in three weeks from that date there would be a minimum depth of 14ft in the Victoria channel, and now, after a lapse of more than three months, the latest report of the harbourmaster state* there is only 13Jtt.— Yours, <fee, (Signed) W. B. Boyd, Local Manager. Dunedin, 2nd April, 1897. The CbairmaD, Chamber of Commerce, Dunedin. Dear Sir, — With reference to the resolution of the Chamber of Commerce relative to thedischarge ' ot the London steamers at PortOhalmerp, we have ! now leceived a reply from Messrs<Sliaw Savill, and Albion Company, London, to the effect that they cannot see their way to alter the present arrangements, but they will be glad to teconsider the matter as soon as the state of tb.e Victoria channel warrants it.— Yours, <Sc, Shaw, Savjll, and Albion Company (Limited) (National Mortgage and Agency Company of New Zealand Limited, Agents), (Signed) W. Henderson, Manager. The Chairman said : Before receipt of this communication there appeared in the D»Uy Times' London correspondent's letter of 20th February a paragraph bearing upon the same subject, aud as the respossibility for the shipping companies' acLiona «vr.s in that letter ( laid at the door of the Harbour Board I wrote to the local ugencn of the companies here. My letter (which speaks for itself) and the replies thereto I propose now be read, so that one discussion may be taken upon the whole. The following correspondence was then read :— ! Otago Harbour Board Office. Dunedin, Jst April, 1897. Gentlemen, — My attention has been called to the paragraph which appeared in yesterday's j Daily Times, being part of their London correa- | pondeni's letter dated 20th February ult , which ! read as follows :— I " \Vith reference to the action of the various j shipping companies trading to New Zealand in [ connection with the port of JLmnedin, I have ! communicated with the principal authoiities here at headquarters. 1 find that there v no probability whatever of their apreeipg tven to delay putting iuto operation the decision which they have already iutirnated to the Otago Harbour Board— ns.mely, that in consequence of the silting up of the chancel between Port Chalmers and Dunedin they will no longer undertake to deliver cargo beyond Port Chalmers. " The London managers of both the principal shipping companies— the New Zealand Shipping Compam and the Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company—were very emphatic on this point. Ihey declared that they had given ample warning to the Otago harbour authorities that they could no i longer take their ships up to Dunedin unless the ! channel were deepened, and that they could not hold themselves rhargeable for the cost of conveying goods forward between those points. They s>ay that their representations have so far produced nothing but requests for delay, and these they have conceded up to the extent they feel iustified in going. Therefore, the decision at which they have jointly arrived at would have to taktr its course, and they will only receive cargo for Port Chalmers, leaving the persons concerned to make their own arrangements for its being forwarded to Dunedin. As for the promise of the Haibour Board to deepen the channel they say that when this bball be done they will, of course, be quite ready to reconsider the matter; but they are not disposed any longer to submit to a loss, which in one of the companies alone amounts to £2COO a year, while the Harbour Board is making up its mind what to do and -whether or not to do it. It is, perhaps, just as well that the resolute attitude taken up by the companies at this end should be thoroughly well understood in Dunedin." With regard to the policy of the shipping companies only taking goods to Port Chalmers 1 have nothipg to say at present, as it does not affect this board's interests pb a board — the injury being to the consumers and producers, of which they will duly, no doubt, take note. But as the grounds for inflicting such injury as stated by the Times correspondent are laid at the door of the Harbour Board i will take it as a favour if you will kindly supply me with the dates upon which any communications such as are referred to were scut to < the boaid. ! I will also be obliged by your stating the names of any vessels of your company that have been unable to come up to Dunedin during the last three or four years that were able to do so at any time prior to that. As the board have had no communication direct from any of the London offices of the shipping companies, presumably such statements as supplied to the Times correspondent have gained their authority from the local agents of the companies ; and if so it is only right, I conceive, that the respocsibility for them should bo brought home to the pi oper parties. | I will be glad to get an early reply to this, with

a view to the board* determining what action : should be taken to counteract the circulation of ' such incorrect statements. Hugh Gourley, Chairman Otago Harbour Board. i Dunedin, April 2, 1897. j The Chairman Otago Harbour Board, Dunedin. ; Dear Sir, — We are in receipt of your favour of i the Ist inst., and in reply have to say we do not ; Jiold ourselves responsible for the statements of ', the London correspondent or tho Otago Daily , Times. — Yours faithfully, i Wm. M. Boyd, Local Manager New Zealand Shipping Compauy (Limited). ! Dunedin, New Zealand, 2nd April, 1897. ! The Chairman utago Harbour Boaid, Dunediu. Sir, — We are in receipt of your favour of yesterday's date regarding a couimunication from the London correFpondeDt cf the Otogo Daily Titnet), dated 20th February last, which appeared in the columns of that paper yesterday, and in reply we bes to .say that we cannot accept any responsibility in connection with such communications. — We remain. Sir, yours obediently, rfiiAW, Savim,, Ar.n albion Oompanv (Limited) (National Mortgage and Agency Company or New Zealand Limited, Agents) SVji. Henderson, Manager. Dunedin. sth April, 1897. The Chairman Otago Harbour Board, Dunedin. Dear Sir, — We are in receipt of your favour of Ist inft., and in reply thereto have to state that we are in no way responsible for the statement made by the London correnpondent of the Otago Daily Times which appeared in that paper of the 31st ult.. — Yours, Ac, Per pro Murray, Roberts, and Co., Arth. H. Heicock. Dunedin, sth April, 1597. ] The Chairman Otago Harbour Board, Dunedin. Sir,— We have to acknowledge your letter dated Ist iust., contents of which have our atten- , tion. As we presume your communication to us has 6olely emanated from the London correspondent's letter which appeared in the Otago Daily Times, we therefore beg to state that we do not recognise any re-igonsibility. — Yours, <frc, Dalgety and Company (Limited) (J. Lethbridgk, Manager), Agents Shaw, Savill, and Albion Company (Limited). Mr Mackereasi Neither has furnished the information that was asked P The Aating-Secretary (Mr Mirams) : No. The Chairman : My letter has accomplished it* main object — viz., to obtain from the local sgentn of the companies an acknowledgment or a dicolaimer of responsibility for the untrue and unfounded reflections' cast upon the board. The onuß of iheae now lies bßtweeu the head offices of the companies and the Daily Times's correspondent in London, and remains for them to say which of them will father the child with such an ugly name. I have to express ray pleasure that the local agents repudiate any responsibility for the parentage. It now remains for the board to say what further action should be taken. Before proposing a motion I desire to make a few general remarks, or, perhaps I should s*y, rt cite some facts which although no doubt well-known to the board are not so by the public genorally, especially amongst our country settlers. Tho charter of the Otago Harbour Board was to lmpiove the harbour in the interests of its teltlers and of shipping conjointly ; not to busy itself with the advantages or disadvantages of other harbours, or fco play into the htnds of would-be monopolists. Comparisotiß of advantages and disadvantages are easily made ; but they are invidious at the best, and .often misleading, and it has never been the practice of this board to magnify its own harbour by trying to depreciate that of its neighbours ; on the other hand, it has never refused to help a " lame dog over the stile " by charcering its plant, when not in use, for tho improvement of other harbours ; no donbfc with a certain amount of profit to itself. Ship* will come and go to the port where no monopolies exist to prevent them, and where they flDd it most profitable to them to viiit, and judging from our experience of the last three months, visits of the larger steamers of our trade ia considered worth looking nfter. Last month we had no less than four large eteameri calling for cargo, with ft tonnage of 14,050 tons. The condition of the harbour in 1874, when the Harbour Board was constituted, was, roughly stated, depth of water at the entrance of navigable channel 16ft; present depth 21ft, with a now safe navigable Nortb Channel of 31ft; all low-water depths. At • Dunediu, 1874, 4ft low water, and now last j survey soundings 13ft Bin ; and the present cut of the Vulcan dredge, which has only % sboru distance to be completed, will give 16ft at low water up to Duuedin wharves, a distance of 14 miles from the entrance, with tidal range 4ft to 7ft, average sft. To effect this and other improvements such as wharves, sheds, reclamation, &c, a sum of £687,000 has been borrowed, the interest upon which amounted last yesr to £36,318. I may here remind you that all borrowed moneys have been expended absolutely upon works. Every penny of interest (which has always been regularly paid on due dates) and all departmental expenditure ha§ been provided for out of revenue, as well as all the cost of works for the last tew years. I have briefly rehearsed these facts, well known to you, for the purpose of having them fresh before your minds and that of the public. Now I would ask you to tutn with | me to our last year's sources of revenue fromj shipping, and let us see whether these shipping companifl3 have any real cause for complaint, premiaing that a. large proportion of the heavy expenditure that I have mentioned haa been incurred to meet the requirements of the greatly increased tonnage of steam vessels now employed by these companies, no doubt they Sliding it a more profitable policy to do so, and note that the board have not, as reasonably they might hare done, increased the charges upon shipping, but on the contrary by these improvements rendered the employing of the tug service less necessary, and so saving those

companies & iargc amcuut annually. Last; year from all our shipping, coajtai, ißfcnrprovinci&l, intercaionir.!, Home, «wid foreign, we received contributions to the year'a rnveaue of £57,000. £14,153 made op aa follows :— Pilotage ... „, „, £5870 Port charges ... ... 3898 Towage ... *„ ,M, M 2913 Berthago ... , A . ... .W72 From £14,153, if we deduei; harbourmaster** departmental s^rvino (cost- £5079), «q ha^B n. J contribution of £9074 to tho meeting of £36,318 . of annual interest and contiacibg improve- ! ments. And hnre iet me repeat with emphasis, I that while the dues upon jjoods — a tax upon j our own work'ew — have been more than doubled ' so meet our improvements and payments cf interes'c, bhe dues upon shipping have , not been increased. All the cry rcg»cd- , m'j heavy peru charge* driving away trade and causing inorease of freights its, in my opiuion, simply a scarecrow, under oloak j of which the object is to transfer a very reason- , able burden from the shouldors of the shipping I companies to those of our producer* and coni sumeru. That scarecrow is much on similar lines as tho fallacy that was exposed by Mr ! r.Jackerras at a Into meeting of tho board h: j regard to the dues upon frozen meat. Tbo I whole dues upon frozen meat (229,480 carcases) | last year amounted to £1434 ; no that, as he , pointed ouv, one-third off — viz , £478r-wonld be ' a sum non-appreciable to the graziers, but would I only have gone into the coffers of the freezing companies to make or increase their dividends. These tmmo companies, he stated, had bound themselves to the shipping ring not to ship by any other lines, although 2«t 6d per carcase w»s ! being charged greater freight hara^ban in | Sydney or Maibourne. Thus 229,480 ac |2s 6d, £28,685, an amount that would ' be appreciable to the gr&ziers and double ' the amount paid last year by the whole ship 1 ping to the revenue of the board. Remember, too, that this is only one item of export, and I ask you to reflect what must be the total of the burden of freight paid on our whole fmporta and txports by our New Zealand workers, as compared with the freights paid by thoso ol Sydney or Melbourne. It is thus thai; our producers specially are heavily handicapped, Thanks bo the action of Messri J. H. Sfanley and Co., backed up by two or three otonr mcuf er.terprisiug and independent settlers and woo' growers, the freight upon wool h«s been reduced • by gd per lb. Now, what dees thie mean to ouir woolgrowers of this district alone ? Shipped last year at our port. 40,000 bales at, say 300 ib per bale, 12 000,0001b (twelve million) at ii. £6250. Thus, ou these two "item" couuecUul with one industry, our gr&ziern baon boaa carrying a burden of no less fchao £35,000 frr the beneOt of the shipping monopolies, w'co arc so loud in their complaints — a sum nearly equal to the whole interest on our borrowed money. Trade and commerce is ever *ißuinins new aspects, owing to constantly new developments taking place, and the board have to watch this in the interests of their constituents, not only in the interests of a section ; and, rely upon \t, if we encourage our settlers to provide exports, ships will come i'or them. What not only the port, but the nettlers of Orago, suffer from io the major degree is the fact of a shipping ring having the principal command of the web! and meat trade, to break down which every legitimate effort should be wade. I will not trespass further upon your jmfcieDoe, and, to put the discuaaion in proper fcrai, will move — " That a committee be appointed to draw up a statement of facts, --Vith copies of letters and reports bearing upon the charges made against the "Harbonr Board, as set forth in the correspondence, and that a copy of came bs forwarded to the Chamber of Gommorte, circulated amongst our country settlers, and also be published as an fcdvertisoment iv the •Shipping World,' 'Transport,' and *l?air I'lay,' in London." I had almost forgotten la say that it was with pleasure I noted tb.Mtb.ii Premier had his attention on bis recent visit to Australia specially directed to the excessive freight charges that our New Zealand Bettlers were subjected to as compared with those ruling to and from the Australian ports, *nd that ha intended to make special inquiries into the snbject should ho gc to Loadon. It would bewell that, in th* face cf *uoh aUudore hurled at this board as contained in the Tinea correspondent's letter, the true facts should be in j the Premier's possession.— (Hear, hsar.) j Mr Mackerhas i I have pleasure in rising to j second the motion, and I think, sir, yon are to I be congratulated on placing the position of I matters so clearly and fully before the beard. The matters affecting our board have been opened afresh on account of the reply which nas been received by the Chamber of Commerce to the application which was made in Deoember last, that the operation of the increased tariff of 3s 7d on all imports should be dolayed for 12 mouths. The replies from the shipping conot paiiles are veiy definite, and show kb how much consideration we may expect at the hands of these companies. I tnink, therefore, that the chairman had good ground for carrying the war into the enemy's camp, in a measure — (hear, hear),— and exposing a bigger grievance than the grievance which is constantly flaunted before the public of our heavy harbour dues. You have stated, sir, that the settlers of Otago on two articles of produce alone are overburdened — unnecessarily burdened — to the extent of some £40.000 on the two articles of export; wool and frozen mutton. Now, I ladk on that as something very grievous. Making smple and fall allowances for the very exceptions 1 circumstances which might be stated in favour of shipping ia Australia as against shipping here, still the difference is altogether unreasonable, and I hope that the attention that is being called to this will arouse the settlers to a tense of the importance of looking after their own interests and of seeking about to see how they can stop this state of things. You might have extended your comparison a little further. Another i»

portant and growing industry in the dairy industry, which has now assumed large proportions, and the charges on it have bsen a constant source of complaint by all who are interested in it. The charges, Ido not hesitate to flay, both on. butter and cheese are too heavy, and the settlers, here- are helplete, for they have no means - of ■ ■ shipping except by the3e companies, who have a monopoly of the trade here. Then, if we were to extend the thing a little further, all New Zealand suffers by tbe excess charges, which the Premier has estimated at £1,000,000, and he is sot far wrong. I have gone into the figures to some extent, and members would be surprised to find how near £1,000,000 the excess of charges by the ships here was over the charges made from Australia However, the committee the chairman has asked for will no doubt go into the whole matter, and, I presume, will be able to bring forward an intelligent and clear report dealing'with all these matt era. What I am concerned most about just now is the matter of the depth of the channel. At the meeting of the Chamber of Commerce held on the 14th December, as the only member of the board present, I felt called on to state what I knew about the position of thp channel and the prospects of the channel. B -fore doing co I consulted the inspector of works and obtained from him the information which I gave to the chamber. I gave it fairly and candidly, and I have j to complain now of the way in which Captain I Boyd has represented to the chamber what I ] did say. The remarks I made were reported, i and correctly reported, in the Daily Times. I said that I had obtained information from the inspector of works that a certain amount of wore bad been done since the pump had bsen placed in that part of the channel and that in a few weeks he expected a minimum depth of 13ft 9in. I said I supposed that might bs looked on as equal to 14ft. Captain Boyd in his letter to the chamber — this is outside of the queetiorf at issue, but he thinks it proper to include it in his letter — spys : " While sanding you the above rep'y ifc might be as well to call the attention of the chamber to the fact that on the 15:h December last, Mr Hackerra?, a prominent member of the Harbour Board, gave the chamber an emphatic assurance that in three weeks from that date there would be a minimum depth of 14ft in the Victoria Channel, and now, atter a lapse of more than three months, the latest report of the harbourmaster istates there is only 13|ft." I suppose the board trill take what I said as contained in the Times. In quoting what was stated to me by tbe inspector ot werks, I said "and in three weeks' time we would have a minimum depth stated at 13ft 9in— but he (Mr Mackerras) put ifc at 14ft— at low water." The position is that I gave the statement which had been made to me by the inspector, that he expected a minimum depth in the matter of a few weeks of 13ffc 9in, and I took it on myeelf to cay I took that as 14ft, but I say I made no emphatic assurance, as is alleged in Captain Boyd'a letter — nothing of the kind. Captain Boyd's grievance at that meeting was that in April of that year the minimum depth in the channel was only lift, which necessitated the change in the policy of the shipping companies in altering the destination of their vessels from DuDedin to Port Chalmers. Now, his grievance is that the depth of water has increased fcince then from lift to I.3ft 6in. The grievance is that it is not 14ffc, which he states I assured the chamber it would ba instetd of 13ft 9in, which the inspector of works said he expected. It seems to me that there is an effort in certain quarters to misrepresent the position, of the board and the ■works of the board — (hear, hear), — and I hopa that this committee will bring up such a report as will bs fit to be circulated far and wide, and Set onr settlers as well as people at H^ome know our real position. Then there ara the questions of the double shift and the withdrawal of the big dredge. I say that the board are perfectly capable of managing these matters without the interference oi ill-informed persons outside — ill-informed, I say, advisedly. In order to to facilitate the deepening of the channel, and to carry on tho works with all the speed possible, the board decided to put the big dredge on certain work and to employ the men on a double fhiffc. After the double shift had "been tried for 6ome time it was found by the officials of the board that there was some waste of time in consequence of the dark nights, and It was deemed advisable that the second shift be withdrawn for the time being during the •winter, as the result was not equal to the expenditure; but I believe that the Works Committee have filled up the blank which was occasioned by that by taking steps to have the big dredge put on again. To members of tbe board who are so alive as we are to do the work with all expedition it is exceedingly tantalising to have ill-informed people outside constantly talking about things that they know nothing at all about. I have pleasure in seconding the motion. Mr Wales said, with Mr Mackerras, he congratulated the chairman upon the statement he had made setting forth the board's position in the matter. One question occurred to him that did not seem to have been taken up by the board, and he would like to ask: "Has the depth of the Victoria channel anything whatever to do with the resolution of these two companies which have a monopoly of the shipping trade to this port P " He thought he could show' that it really had nothing to do with ib. The shipping companies had never delivered the goods which were tent out in these large ships at Danedin. The goods were always delivered at Pott Chalmers.-~(A Voice j " No, bo.") He repeated; the shipping companies had never delivered an ounce of their goods at the Dunedin wharves that had been sent out in these big bottoms ; but ha presumed the goods were sent up without charge by the railway. Mr Mackerhas observed that Me Wales was wrong in his assertion. Some of the large cargo steamers did come up to Dunedin.

] Mr Wales said they would find that such , large vessels as the Gothic axd the Ruahine [•carried a large quantity of gopdi for this port, { and did not land them at' Danedin. They .' would aho find that if the resolution of the companies was not withdrawn these large cargo steamers and eailing vessels would yet be sent up to Dunedin, and an extra charge would be made if it could be recDvered. As Mr Mackerrai feared, there was some outside influence | at work against the port, and if the board succeeded in deepening the channel to the j necessary depth some other excuses would be made. Ever since he had been a member of "tbs board there had always been some excvise. In the early days they had a promise that these big steamers would come first to this porl;, which would be made, alternately with some other place, the porb of call and deparj ture. That bad occasionally been done, bub ' the promise had never been quite carried out. When ib was asked why it was not carried out different excuses were made, and he was afraid tbe same thing would continue until some other companies came here and the monopoly was broken up. There had been a wonderful lot of work done in connection with the harbour, although the amount borrowed had been very large. As the chairman had stated a1;a 1 ; the very commencement of the dredging operations, there wsr only a depth of 4ft at BlscV Jack's Point. Now there was a depth of 13ft Bin, and there would shortly be a j depth of 16ffc. Although nearly £700,000 had ■ been expended on the harbour, ifc was wonderful what had been done iv a short space of time, when they considered that it had taken about 100 years to make tbe Glasgow port what it wac. The chairman had raid that the interest they paid was over £36,000 a year ; bub he had forgotten the exchanges and charges, wlvch ran the amount up to very nearly £38,500. That amount going out for interest and ' exchanges alone was an enormous sum for this small port, and were it nob I for this the board would ba able to do a great deal more. However, as he said before, the depth of tbe channel did not make much .difference to these large steamers. Mr Mackerras : I wish to say that, so far as the imports her<s are concerned, the bulk of them pome by what are known as cargo steamers, and tboss steamers are expected to come up to the Ducedin wharf. Mr Wales : Is ifc not a fact that the shipping compauies in their resoluMon meant cargo sent up by cargo steamers, while hitherto bhey have been landing cargo by these large passenger steamers at Port Chalmers and sending it up to Dunedin free ? Captain M'Kinnon : The shipping companies have to pay for it. Mr Wales said in the past the freight from Port Chalmers to Dunedin was paid by the shipping companies ; but after the resolution took effect, if 600 tons arrived in the Gothic for Dunedin, the railway freight would have to be paid by the merchants in Dunedin. But why I should the shipping companies not continue to j pay the frpjght ? 1 C&pfcain M 'Kinnon Baid that cargo steamers bringing 3000 tons had first to land 1500 tons at Port Chalmerc, and the companies had to pay full railage on all thab quantity. Mr Carroll thought the chairman bad taken i the proper course to counteract the influences that were again working against the port — influences of which tho origiu should, if possible, be found out. As far as hia expeI rienca as a member of the board enabled him to speak, he did not think the Vicboria channel was any worse than ever it. had bsen, and he supposed that in three months there would be a channel of 16 ; t at low water from Dunedin to Porfc Chalmers. It might be that the sand pump was not doing as well as had been expected, but he hoped that when a better cutter was fibbed on to it the work would be carried on more expedifciously. The porfc did not deserve the influences that were workiug against ifc. It seemed to be more unfortunately situated in that respect tban any other of the ports. If they heard tbe public expressing an opinion they (the public) were "down" on the board — the works were not going on as quickly as they ought, and the dues were heavy ; but the other influences were passed over. He thought the result of the appointment of a committee would be that a statement satisfactory to the board would be submitted, and that it would be shown that what had apparently emanated from the shipping companies had really no foundation. Mr Joel had no doubt that the chairman's statement explained a great deal as against what the companies said, and it might give some satisf action to the public generally, but there was not the slightest doubt that steamers coming here were put to greater expense than at other ports ; and when he said that he covered the whole history of the conflict bebween the board and the shipping companies, which got the same freights for leas trouble when they sent their boats to other ports, while here they were charged higher dues. Ifc was not the channel the companies had to complain of, for very few of the large steamers from Home came up the channel, although if the channel was made deeper the exception would ba the steamer that discharged at Port Chalmers. The board had been spending a very large amount of money, but it seemed to him a great deal of their work had not beon advantageous. If they put the big dredge on, twice the time was expended in taking the spoil out that was spent in actual working, and that in itself was a very great handicap. Mr Carroll : Ifc must be done. Mr Joel said ifc struck him, therefore, that the board had not been getting value for the money they had expended. Then they took the sand pump, and they found ifc did not do the work they expected. Ifc was thought, also, that the sand which was taken up when deposited at the retaining wall would remain there. Well, be thought their experience of

fcbe last few months should show them that it w»s nob doing Ibafc They had a depth of 16ft , at one point and of 14ft at another, and they | found after they had done a certain amount of work that the depth had gone back six inohes. Mr Carroll : "What nonsensa 1 Mr Joel : We had 14ft and now we have 13ft 6in. Mr Macrerras : Where has there been 14-fb ? Mr Joel believed that the work the board had btea doing wan wasteful — (Mr Baeclay : " Hear, hear '") — whether they ussd dredge 222 or the S3iid pump. Wcat other method should be adopted, then ? They had no barges — all of them were rotteu, — bub they would have to get some. He was pretty certain fchtt if they were to get some barges and put the spoil into Blanket Biy, where the board had about 20 acres of Kud — whether they fcr.ok the stuff up by dredge 222 or by the sard pump was immaterial, — they would not only do good work in the channel, but they would also reclaim a I valuable area which would in the iuture be productive of revenue to the board. He believed that the sand pump \ras quite capable of lifting the sand from the channel, but it was no 1 ; capable of keeping it at the side where ifc was depesited, as at every tide it came through the wall. C ipcain M'Kinnon said the board were a good deal to blame for what was said outside. They were frequently talking about doing so much in a certain time, and at the end of that time the condition of matters was no better. A depth of 16ft at the heads had been mentioned, bub when he came here in 1862 24 Ft was a common draught. He thought if the board were not so sanguine about what they were going to do they would not give occasion for such criticism as had been directed against them. Mr. Robin said the remarks of Captain M'Kinnon with regard to the depth. of water at the heads pnt him in mind of what was occurring at the present time. The fact was often commented on that there were vessels coming up to Dunedin drawing from 6in to 9in more water tban was reported to be in the Victoria channel. This showed that there was something wrong in the taking of the soundings or in the markings of the vessels. He proceeded to say that when he became a member' of the board they thought their first duty was to try ! and pnt their finauces "in order. Having done i that they turned their attention to the improvement of the harbour, and he coutended they had been improving it ever since they started to do so. Mr Joel hid said that the ma'erial that was taken out of the harbour was going back into it, but he would ask that gentleman if it would have been right and proper for him to inquire whether he was justified in making the remarks he did before allowing his utterances to go forth to the public. Of his (M r Robin's) own knowledge he did not know that the material was not going back, bub Mr Stephens, the inspector, said that there was not a single bucketful going back into the channel, and those who knew Mr Stephens knew thab his reports were always truthful. Mr Napier Bell, an engineer in Sydney, who had 30 dredges at. work under him, another engineer, and Mr Stephens all declared that if they got the stuff ou'j of the channel there was no occasion for it to go back. In December, when the shipping companies' circular wa3 first issued, the depth of water in the channel wai lift. The boa'd said in eight months if; would be 16ft, and iL had been increased from lift to 13ft 6iu. That was a considerable step towards 16ft, and there was only a very short distance now to do to give the 16ffc that the board promised in December last. He presumed when they got a depth of 16fb in the channel it would be the duty of the board to say whether they would make another cut, so as to get 18ffc or 19ft in the channel, or whether they would deepen the lower harbour. It would, therefore, be seen, despite what had been said, that the board were deepening the harbour as expeditiously and as [ cheaply as they possibly could with the money at their disposal. The shipping compsnies , might like to see them put on an extra rate, but ho was not disposed to do so. He thought the harbour was being deepened in a very satisfactory and energetic manner, and he did not think that they should deviate froai the even tenor of their way. If they paid attention to what some gentlemen in connection with the shipping companies said they would never be aG rest. At any rate they should nob be moved from their set purpose, but should do what they thought was right for the improvement of the harbour. He thought fcorne gentlemen connected with the shipping companies would never be satisfied let tbe board do what they might, and the sooner those gentlemen were translated to a higher and better sphere the better. — (Laughter.) It was true that the Vulcan was not doing all the board expected her to do, but still she was doing good work, and they expected that she would yet do better; In the last report they had from Mr Stephens, he stated that the net cost of lilting material amounted to about 4d per cubic yard as against Is to Is 2d with the big dredge. He thought ! this was a very great reduction, and the Works ! Committes believed that they would be able, with the sanction of the board, to reduce the cost from 4d per cubic yard to a still less sum. The board were, in fact, doing as much good work as had ever been done in the past by any other gentlemen who had sat upon it. But if they did ..deepen the channel up to 18f b it ' would nob allow big vessels like the Aot'-a to come up to Dunedin, Supposing they were to make an 13ft cut they would not, therefore, be ' in any be' her po-ifcion. Mr Thomson did not believe tint the channel was to blame for the correspondence that had I been read. He thought the only thing was thab there was not sufficient; competition in shipping. (Hear, hear.) Mr Robin : I believe he has struck it.— (Laughter.) The Chairman, replying to Mr Joel, said '

that when Mr Napier 801 l was here bwo years ago to assist in cutting the new channel he (Mr Bell) advised tbe board, if they .had a suction pump, to put it there and throw over the material into the old channel or any place that was convenient, and his st&tement wasf "Don't meddle with this' channel For 12 months." The board had never meddled with, the channel from that day to this and the facb remained that .there was more water in it than when Mr Bell met them. That showed that the sand did nob come back when it was put out, and it was looser down there than in the upper channel. He wished to emphasise the fact that it was the desire of the bo'ird to spend every available shilling on the improvement of the harbour as judiciously as possible. They had laboured, however, at a considerable disadvantage They had an enormous amount of iuter«Bi to pay for nuney which not one member of the present boai'd had spent, and he thought the present board had guarded the interests of th^s port as well as any of their predecessors, aud their anxiety was to do the best they possibly could to encourage the trade of the country. The abatements about the enormous freights that were charged in excess of the freights that were charged iv the Australian colonies should, he thought, be a surprise to the grazing community of New Zealand. Captain M'Kinnon said Mr Ma-jkerras had forgotten to mentiou thab the companies in Australia were foreign companies subsidise! by Governments. The Chairman said the facb remained ths,fc whatever the companies .were they were prepared to accept considerably lower freights than ruled here If a ve3^el could go away from here wibh £17,000 to £20, 000 ' freight on board the 'shipping companies could not grumble at having to pay harbour dues, and Captain M'Kinnon ought to know it. Captain M'Kinnon : I do know it. The Chairman : And yet you do all yon can to deprecate the action of this board. Captain M'Kinnon : I object to thab remark. I will not st-tiid it from you or anybody else. The Chairman : It is a fact, all the same. Capbain M'Kinnon: It ii not a fact. The motion was than put and carried. The joint Finance and Works Committees were appointed the Special Committee in terms of the resolution.