TUESDAY, AUGUST 7.

Otago Witness, Issue 2111, 9 August 1894, Page 20

TUESDAY, AUGUST 7.

On the House of Representatives meeting at 2.30 p.m.,

Mr SAUNDERS resumed the debate on the Financial Statement. He said he had never but once in his life had an opportunity of expressing approval of a Budget. He did not want to injure either the Government or the Opposition, and believed that the Minister for Lands was doing his work in a thoroughly conscientious manner, and with a fervent desire to break up land monopoly. As to the Government generally, they represented a majority in the country, but the Opposition was much too weak. However, so long as they had party government it was only right that they should be in a position to protect the rights of the minority, and to curb the arrogance which often characterised a majority. That being his opinion he would much prefer, if he could do so, to strengthen the present Opposition rather than weaken them. He thought the Treasurer did perfectly right to introduce this debate by a speech from himself, and he was quite within his rights in doing so. He did not approve of reading the Financial Statement — a practice which was introduced by Sir J. Vogel — and he thought they could judge much better of a Colonial Treasurer's capacity to deal with figures if )te delivered his speech in the usual way, instead of reading it to the House. Referring to Mr Mitchelson's speech, he did not think it was so interesting as it might have been, owing to its being nearly a repetition of bis speech of last year. As to those members who had spoken in favour of the Budget, they did not speak of it in a critical vein at all, and it seemed to him that many of those members had not made themselves acquainted with the contents of the Budget, nor did they understand the effect of it. He referred next to the speeches of Dr Newman and Captain Russell, and denied Captain Russell's statement that the Bank of New Zealand was an Old Man of the Sea. The late Mr Ballance had told the House that the Government did not intend to go in for further borrowing, and although the present Government had not kept Mr Ballance's promise, and had borrowed a great deal more money than they should have done, thus increasing the public debt by one and a-half millions, the charges on that debt had not been increased during the last four years. He spoke very Btrongly against the borrowing policy that had beea pursued in the colony for years past, and said that they had had no money to speak of in the colony for the last 20 years except what had been borrowed in England. They had borrowed 45 millions of money and had paid 50 millions for it, and yet they had at present 40 millions to pay. He hoped the House would not break the pledge it made in 1892 and go in for a further system of borrowing, as no one could deny the pernicious effects of it. He considered many of the civil servants much too highly paid, and that those who were under them had to do the work. There had never been a popular man who advocated economy amongst the public men of the colony. Favourites were always spendthrifts, and the present Premier had warmly supported Sir J. Vogel for spending thousands of pounds in sludge channels and works of that kind. He regarded the present Budget as a distinct departure from the policy of self-reliance laid down by Mr Ballance.

Mr M'NAB thought the present was the time when members should criticise the Budget proposals, but he must admit he could not gather much from Mr Saunders's speech as to his views of the Budget, although it was very evident that the hon. gentleman was strongly against borrowing. It was too late now, however, to declaim against borrowing, and their aims should be to restrict it as much as possible in the future. Ho did not agree with those who said that thi* borrowing in this Budget was confined to £250,000. He was not condemning borrowing, as he admitted they could not get on satisfactorily at the present time without borrowing in some shape or other. It was his opiuion that members on all sides of the House would hail with delight the proposal in the Budget for promoting the agricultural industry, and he thought it a wise course to place the railways more directly under parliamentary control. It was greatly to be regretted that the Budget did not propose to deal with local government, and he thought Parliament should occupy itself more with colonial questions and less with local ones. It appeared to him they required more practical legislation, not only to assist those who were unemployed at present, but to ascertain the cause which led to their want of employment. He thought that there was much to be commended in the Budget as a whole, and also much to be criticised, and there was no doubt a strong feeling against borrowing iv the colony.

Mr FRASER congratulated Mr M'Nab on his straightforward speech, but he must confess he could not accept the Financial Statement so easily as that hon. gentleman, or the member for Port Chalmers, who said he was prepared to accept the accounts in the Budget as they had been thoroughly audited. It appeared to him somewhat curious that all Treasurers appeared to b'j anxious to conceal the real state of the public accounts, and the exceeding readiness with which Mr Ward fenced all questions relating to finance without giving the House any in&truction at all showed that he (Mr Fraser) was correct in the opinion ho held. It was satisfactory to find, however, that the Treasurer wag able to show a surplus. He admitted it might be advisable to borrow if the money was to be properly spent, but he held there must be some safeguard against spending money recklessly or

injudiciously. He congratulated the Government on what they had done in the interests of agriculture, and said they were also to be commended in their selection of a commissioner for the conference at Canada. He denied that the country had demanded a change of Railway Commissioners. What was wanted was a change in the management, and he could not at all compliment the Government on what they had done in this . respect. The truth of the matter was that one of the late commissioners was too independent for the present Government, Bnd he regretted exceedingly the treatment which the Government had meeted out to two of the commissioners. He referred at some length to questions of local government. He said it was not necessary to dißcuss the Budget proposals for cheap money at length, inasmuch as the whole thing would have to be gone over again when the bills embodying the details were before the House. He should, however, whilst supporting the cheap money scheme, not support any alteration in the tariff duties that might be proposed in order to assist other classes of people besides farmers.

Mr DUNCAN referred at some length to Sir R. Stout's speech and deprecated the charges the hon. gentleman had made with respect to the dismissal of railway officers against Mr Seddon and Mr Reeves. He alluded to the formation of the Stout-Vogel Government, and reminded the House that Sir R. Stout could not afterwards secure re-election for Danedin. Not only that, but he (Mr Duncan) secured re-election only by the skin of his teeth because he was a supporter of the Stout-Vogel Government. Referring to Sir R. Stout's statement at Wanganui respecting Mr Ballance's wish that he should lead the party, he (Mr Duncan) had no doubt that was correct enough, but he expressed surprise that Sir R. Stout had not come back to the House before he had done, and not have waited till he thought he could obtain the leadership of the party. Respecting railway management, he thought the commissioners should be dispensed with altogether, and the Minister made responsible to Parliament. He regarded the present proposals as different altogether from borrowing for railway construction. The proposals for land settlement were absolutely necessary, as there were many applications for land which could not be complied with, and they wanted compulsory clauses in the bill to enable land to be purchased for settlement. He approved of the cheap money scheme, and thought there would be no difficulty in giving it a fair trial As to the Budget as a whole, he supported it generally, but would reserve further remarks till the bills were brought down.

Mr DUTHIE said when the Opposition members criticised the Budget proposals of the Government they were referred to by Ministerial supporters as pessimists. But he should not be deterred by that from expressing his views on this Budget. The public debt of the colony had increased under the present Government in three years by £1,535,538, and this, added to £613,829 which the Treasurer had spent, made the colony in a worse position by £2,109,437 since these gentlemen took office, which was not a bad resord for a professedly non-borrowing Government. He asserted that the public accounts of the colony were not kept in a reliable manner. So much was this the case that it was impossible to arrive at the true state of the finances. He had said last year, and he repeated it now, that a recurring surplus was bad finance. The £250,000 of last year's surplus was a vote of last year, and ought not to have been brought forward again. The expenditure had been £89,000 less than the votes, and he claimed that there was evidence in this that the surplus was pre-arranged, and that much larger votes than were necessary were taken in order that a large surplus might be shown. Last year he had drawn attention to the fact that the votes for miscellaneous contingencies were £49,000, and yet he had not received a word of support from patriotic economists or the •• skinflint " party. The sage of Selwyn and the member for Marsden were silent on that occasion — they were dumb dogs in fact. He quoted from figures to prove that the savings claimed by Mr Ward in the Estimates were incorrect in every case, and the Estimates were considerably increased since the last year that Sir H. Atkinson was in office. He contradicted the statement made by Mr Ward at Oamaru that there had been a decrease of interest by loan conversion. The interest and sinking fund in 1890-91 was £1,858,253, and last year £1,885,697, so that there had been an increase of £27,444 instead of a decrease. With regard to Treasury bills, which gave a side light on the strength of finance, it was extremely difficult to trace them, owing to the manner in which the accounts were presented ; but it was evident that at times this enormous borrowing power was pledged up to the hilt. Our finance was evidently very weak if the Imperial guaranteed debentures were so frequently pledged. The fact of asking for the land tax four months before it was due was an indication of the exhausted state of the colony's fiuances. He strongly complained that the time limit would prevent him speaking at greater length on the Budget proposals, and said it was absurd to suppose that a man could properly discuss these proposals in a one-hour speech. With respect to the cheap money scheme, he asserted that the Government could not pet money at 3£ per cent. Cheap money could only be had where there was good security, and they would not be able to get cheap money owing to the harassing policy of the Government. When the present Ministry came into office everything was to prosper, and they were all then to be made happy. They had now, however, the largest body of unemployed ever seen in the colony, 1206 people had left their land, and the expenses of the Labour department were very much increased. He next referred to the banking legislation, and said he could see a grave risk arising in the future from the action of the Government.

Mr G. W. RUSSELL said Mr Dutbie's speech was more moderate in tone than he had expected, but he (Mr Russell) sympathised with that gentleman in as much as he was one of the few members left of a party that had once been invincible in the colony. He asserted, notwithstanding Mr Duthie's charge against the Government, that they had not incurred taxation. On the contrary, they had exempted improvements from taxation. They had also shown a surplus every year, notwithstanding the enormous shrinkage of values and a bad harvest. He pointed out that the net increase of the public debt during the last Atkinson Ministry's term of office was £1,751,000, wbereas the net increase during the three years of the present Government was £1,012,000. He was not at all sure that they were doing wisely in taking £250.000 from the pockets of the people for the purpose of constructing work:; that wore to last for all time, and thought the time would c >me when the Government would have to find some scheme for constructing public works without takiDg it out of loan. He was glad to see the Government creating a department of industries and commerce, and thought that department was likely to greatly benefit the business men of the colony. The tariff must undoubtedly be revised with a view to assisting the industries of the colony, and he sincerely hoped that

would be done next session. He believed the dairy industry would prove of immense benefit to the country, and there was no reason why they should not develop that industry much more than was done hitherto. He hoped, also, that the coal industry would be more developed, and held that while it was important they should break down a land monopoly it was also important they should break down a coal monopoly. It would be the duty of the Government to attack that monopoly, and to open State coal mines, so that coals could be distributed.all over the colony in steamers controlled by the Government. Referring to railway management he thought a fatal mistake had been made in handing over the railways to irresponsible men, and he expressed the opinion that when the Government brought down their bill on this subject there would be enough of the Liberal party in the House to carry the proposition that the Government should be responsible for railway management. He regarded the cheap-money scheme as the most important part of the Budget, and he had no hesitation in saying that the Premier's declaration to the people of Canterbury before the election that the Government intended bringing in a cheap-money scheme had the effect of returning a solid vote for the Government in that part of the colony. He was not going to deny that there were no loans in the Budget, but how different were they from the days when millions were brought on the floor of the House to create a fictitious value in property. In the present case provision was made in every instance for payment of interest on the money borrowed. There must be safeguards in connection with the cheap-money scheme, and the Government would have his assistance in providing those safeguards. There must be also a limit to the amount lent to farmers, and he was quite prepared to trust the Government with respect to the formation of the board.

Mr LANG thought the railway management under the commissioners compared favourably with the service as it before existed. If there were faults to be found, they were owing to the manner in which the commissioners were appointed, as they were supposed to run the railways to make them pay. He would approve, as far as he was personally concerned, a Minister being on the board. As for the local government question, he agreed thoroughly that local bodies should be reduced, and great blame was to be attached to the Government for not dealing with this matter before. He spoke at some length on the Nativa land question,' and regretted that the Government did not propose to allow Natives to deal with their land, but he was glad to see it was intended to simplify the Native Land Court procedure. With respect to financial aid to settlers he thought they should pause before passing a measure of this kind, as it would not help those who were heavily mortgaged, it should rather be devoted to fencing and matters of that description. He approved of several of the Budget proposals, but there were some of them that he thought would do serious harm.

Mr WILLIS said the more he considered the Budget proposals the more he felt convinced they would give satisfaction to the colony. As regarded the cheap money scheme he believed it was in the right direction, but the greatest care would have to be exercised to see that loans were given in a judicious way. He had no doubt, however, that the board would take care that loans would not be given in too large amounts, as there would be many applicants, and consequently much competition for them. Respecting the proposals for taking land for settlement he thought the same proposal should apply to Native lands. He had spoken to several influential chiefs, and told them that the board would be more likely to give fair value for their land than they would otherwise get, and in almost every case the Natives considered the proposal a reasonable one. He was strongly opposed to the lease in perpetuity, and thought there should be periodical revaluations. He strongly opposed a duty being put on fruit, and said the borrowing of money for railway construction should cease altogether.

Mr MASSEY said, respecting the Native land proposals of the Government, that it was never intended that the Government should take Native lands and give the Natives whatever they liked in return. He thought those lands should be dealt with in such a way as would be fair to the Natives themselves. It seemed to him the proper way to induce people to go on the land was to improve the price of our produce, and he held it was the duty of the Agricultural department to collect all possible information about the price of produce with the object of inducing settlement on the land. With respect to the proposed duty on fruit there was great diversity of opinion, but he was glad to hear it was intended to reduce the freight on fruit and dairy produce. The present Liberal party, of which they had heard so much, had now been in office for nearly four years, and the colony was in a worse position now than it had been for 20 years past. The party itself also differed in the House materially on many points, and he ventured to say that when the next general election was held the verdict of the colony would be that the Liberal party had been weighed in the balance and found wanting. He strongly opposed the borrowing proposals of the Government, and said nearly every member of the House was pledged against borrowing ; the responsibility must therefore rest on the Government.

Mr LAYVRY moved the adjournment of the debate. — Agreed to.

A FARMER SPEAKS UIS MIND.

The Government delight to call themselves the farmers' friends, and fairly dote upon their land settlement policy ; but it is now being urged, what is the use of putting people on the land if only for the purpose of taxing them off again ? Judging from a letter to a member from a hard-working farmer read iv the House this afternoon, gratitude to the Government is not the strong point in the character of the average agriculturist. The farmer in question wants to know how his sons can bo expected to remain continually on the land earning a bare subsistence when the messengers in the House are paid 10s a day, and the Sergeant-at-Arms gets £250 a year for sitting a few hours a day in the House for a few months in the year. The duty of from 20 to 25 per cent, upon tea, sugar, and other necessary articles appropriates, bo he says, something like 4£d out of the 2s a day the farm labourer earns by working from daylight to dark ; and now this Government, which asserts such confident claims to the eternal gratitude of agriculturists, is going to make the unfortunate farmer pay £5000 a year to raise the wages of the Westport miners, who are already very much more liberally paid than him&elf. This is surely, one member remarked, kicking the farmer to death like a tame horse in a wild herd.

THE MEMBER FOR MAT AUK A,

Mr M'Nab — the supplanter of the Hon. G. F. Richardson as member for Mataura — thinks it is a matter for regret that the Budget baa carried the country no further in the matter of some change in the present system of local government. "It is high time," he says, "that the mere local matters were referred to some body outside Parliament, so that members may have more time to devote to the busi-

ness of the country. Parliament should deal with colonial rather than local matters, and district councils, which should replace the present county councils, would form a splendid training ground for political life." Many members agree with Mr M'Nab iuhis dissatisfaction of the existing scheme of local government, though they may not agree with his reconstruction scheme.

A strong indictment of the present Ministry, who delight to honour Mr Ballance as their patron saint, was launched from the Government benches to-day. In the course of his financial speech Mr Saunders reminded the House that only two years ago Mr Ballance had declared that the colony was to cease from borrowing, the immediate effect upon the money market being most favourable. The present Government had not carried out that announcement, but had borrowed. " Are we," he asked, to break the pledge signed in 1892, and to commence another course of hard drinking ? " The key note of Mr Saunders's speech was the word " economy." REVERSING MR BALLANCE'S POLICY.

The rumour gathers strength that the Railway Bill of this session will provide for the absolute reversion of the department to political control, but the talk of the lobbies may be the outcome of a Ministerial feeler of the pulse of the majority. Judging by the attitude of Sir Robert Stout last session upon this question, the Premier should be ablo to rely upon his strenuous support to a restoration of absolute control by the Government, for •• trust the people " was his watchword upon this question, as upon that of prohibition, and it is difficult to see how he is to recede from it, unless his charge against the Railway Union of Canterbury has made him waver in his faith, which is not likely ; and as to that alleged scandal, the last has not been heard of it, for it is confidently stated that a black list was prepared and in part acted upon, and that Sir Robert Stout will ventilate the whole matter when the Railway Bill comes up for discussion, and do his utmost to obtain a committee. A full inquiry seems assured.

THE RAILWAY BILL.

The declaration of Sir Robert Stout at Wanginai on Saturday last as to the nature of the political testament of the late Mr Ballance is naturally much discussed by the man in the street, and correspondingly finds a reflex of interest among Ministers. Yesterday they are believed to have considered in Cabinet with auxious deliberation how the pestilrn 1 ; deliverance of the knight could best be answered, and it was whispered in the lobbies this morning that the proceedings of to-day would be begun by the flinging of the gage of battle by the Premier to the knight in the form of a personal explanation, in which the Wanganui speech would be challenged and denied. Such a course would have been quite in accord with the usual tactics of Mr Seddon, one of whose most admirable qualities is the undoubted pluck with which it is his habit to take any difficulty by the throat directly it presents itself. Why then has he by his Bilence to-day appeared to assent to the charge of Sir Robert Stout that the Premier to all intents and purposes attempted to steal his dead chief's political clothes. Is it that there are members of the present Cabinet who, knowing the dead man's wishes, cannot find it in their hearts to bear false witness to save their present chief from the charge ?

THE DUTY ON FRUIT.

In his speech this afternoon Mr Fraser, the member for Wakatipu, said that the proposed duty on fruit was being strongly opposed by working people because they happened to feel the pinch, but many of those who were so much against this fruit duty would be delighted with a duty on boots, because the farmers would have to pay a considerable portion of it. Protectionists were not logical. As long as the protection benefited themselves they liked it, but when they felt its pressure they said it would never do. However, the farmers did not want a duty on fruit. What they wanted waß cheap transport and expert advice as to the kind of fruit most suitable to the various markets. That was all they wanted from the Government of the country.

THE COAL INDUSTRY.

A petition was presented by the Hon, A. J. Cadman from 108 coal miners of Huntly praying for an import duty on coal. The petition states that the miners and mine owners are greatly handicapped by the competition of the foreign article and the heavy railway freight — the freight from Huntly to Auckland being 6a 6d per ton. The foreign coal was thus enabled to undersell the local article in the local market. A ton of Newcastle coal was lately quitted at lls 8d in Auckland. The matter is of vital importance, the petitioners say, not only to the district but to the colony, as last year 53,000 tons of coal was sent by rail from Huntly, giving over £17,000 to the railway revenue. The petition has been referred to the Tariff Committee.

JOTTINGS.

The public accounts are not reliable, says Mr Duthie ; who also states that the Budget has been as much pulled to pieces by Ministerialists as by the Opposition.

The Premier, according to Mr Duthie, is a most unfortunate man. It is wonderful how frequently the newspapers have misreported him, and it is curious that the erring reports are generally in his own favour.

Mr Duncan would abolish the Railway Commissioners and have the whole control vested in a Minister responsible to the House, and Sir Robert Stout said "Hear, hear," with much emphasis.

" Returns have been refused to us," says Mr Duthie, "and we are compelled to try our best to ascertain the financial position of the colony from the muddled accounts now put before us."

According to Mr Duthie, the Treasury bills account cannot be ascertained, and he believes they are pledged almost to the hilt.

" Wait a little," said Sir Robert Stout, when Mr Duncan intimated that the knight had abandoned his chargeß as to the Railway Union and the commissioners ; "I only withdrew as far as the list was concerned."

Mr Duncan says the railway servants have not a soul to call their own under the commissioners.

Mr Duthie made a long detailed statement this evening, bristling with figures, explanatory of the conversion of the £500, 000 loan, contending that not only had this item of the public debt been expanded from £500,000 to £616,000, but that an exact actuarial statement would show that an interest chargo of £5025 had been imposed upon the country forever. The Treasurer interrupting with an interjection, Mr Dnthie roundly challenged Mr Ward to subvert his figures, and declared that the Treasurer did not understand the account.

According to Mr Duthie the bank guarantee deliberately provides for the cloaking and concealing of the real value of the securities of the Globo Assets Company by permitting the book values to be carried forward.

"The time limit." said Mr Duthie, warmly, "is utter humbug." He pointed out that he had matter of importance to the country bearing upon the question under consideration, and it was not right that he should be shut out

from placiug it before the House. " The gag ! " iaterjected Mr T. Mackenzie.

Mr Russell, of Caristchurch, contends that it is the duty of the Government when two men equally fit, one a Liberal and the other a Conservative, apply for a position to give it to the Liberal.

When Mr Duthie said that, "in spite of the boasts of the Government upon coming into power that they were going to cure poverty, we have no w the largest body of unemployed there has ever been," he was greeted with loud cries of "Hear, hear," "No," and "Question."

The Minister for Lands this morning, in the Waste Lands Committee, moved various amendments in the Land for Settlements Bill, chiefly to remedy defects in clauses 4, 5, and 8 of the measure. It will bo remembered that during the debate on the second reading Sir R. Stout drew attention to the imperfect drafting of the bill, and the proposed amendments would seem to be in large part an admission of his contention. Consideration of the principal amendments was postponed.

The Hon. G. F. Richardson, whose criticism of the Budget I transmitted yesterday, will leave for the south during the week to fill an engagement at Mataura, where he is to be banqueted by his late constituents and be the recipient of a presentation.

" It is not the economists, but the spendthrifts that have been the favourites in the House and the country " says Mr Saunders. Mr Seddon knows well, according to Mr Saunders, how ardently he supported Sir Julius Vogel, and how many thousands he got for the West Coast.

Mr Saunders thinks there should always be a strong minority in the House to check any tendency to arrogance on the part of the majority.

According to Mr M'Nab labourers and commercial men who have any security have aa much right to cheap money as the farmers. He thinks the Government should have commenced with the Crown tenants as an experiment.

Alluding to the way in which the Government had treated those followers who had criticised their proposals, Mr Saunders said he had looked around for another seat, but he did not see any place where he ceuld better agree with his neighbours.