BIBLE.READING IN SCHOOLS.

Otago Witness, Issue 1851, 29 June 1893, Page 18

BIBLE.READING IN SCHOOLS.

At last week's meeting of the Dunedin Presbytery the question of Bible-reading iv schools was considered, the matter being introduced by the reading of the recommendation of the synod's committee which was discussed at lasb meefciDg of presbytery. The recommendation was to the following effect : — "That presbyteries request their ministers to address their congregations on the importance and necessity of the Bible being read in the public schools within school hours and under a conscience clause, and also recommend their officebearers to use such efforts as may secure the return of members to Parliament who will vote for Bible-reading in the schools."

The Rev. Mr Will said he was sorry that ho had not got the communication from tie Anglican Synod at Christchurch containing ai account of the London School Board 83heme, which the Church of England seemtd 8 )mewhat hearty in supporting, and requesting the co-operation of the presbytery with the view of getting some such scheme adopted here. Anyone who had got the circular should lay it on the table. In the meantime a small committee should be appointed to arrange with all other denominations ia town favourable to a plan of getting the Bible introduced into the schools, to have a united meeting in Dunedin where the matter might be fully discussed, and some arrangement made for joint action being taken. He believed the presbytery as such was very hearty in its desire to have the Bibla reintroduced into the public sohools ; but there was such an amount of coldness and heartlessness that he did not wonder that the result of so many efforts had proved unsuccessful. He moved— "Thab a committee be appointed to consider the London School Board scheme and other schemes of Bible-reading, and to confer with representatives of other Christian denominations re the introduction of Bible-reading into the schools."

The Rev. Mr M'Kerrow said he had a newspaper clipping referring to the London School Board scheme, in which it was stated that the act of 1870 "gave liberty to the local school boards to determine whether any, and if any, what kind, of religious teaching should be given in the board schools ; the action of these bodies being, however, limited by the famous CowperTemple clause, which provided that in schools assisted by public rates no catechism or formulary distinctive of any denominational creed should be permitted to be taught. The London School Board, in the exercise of the discretion thus accorded, passed in 1871 a resolution which has since been known as ' The London compromise,' to the effect that 'in the schools provided by the board the Bible shall be read, and there shall be given such explanations and such instructions therefrom in the principles of morality and religion as are suited to the capacities of children, provided always that in such explanations and instructions the provisions of the act in sections 7 and 14 (Cowper-Temple clause) be strictly observed both in letter and spirit, and that no attempt be made in any euch schools to attach children to any particular denomination.'" That was the resolution passed by the London School Board, which had been acted upon. As to what Mr Will mentioned about its being somewhat satisfactory that the Church of EDgland supported that resolution The Rev. Mr Will : In Christchurch.

The Rev. Mr M'Kerrow said he thought Mr Will meant in London. He then went on to say that an attempt was being made in London now to upset the resolution. At the last election to the London School Board the Church patty were in the ascendant, and they were doing their best— and probably by this time they had accomplished their object— to violate the principle of undenominational teaching. They were doing this by endeavouring to introduce catechisms and formularies to teach the doctrines of their own church, and they wished only to have persons qualified to do that appointed teachers. The whole of London was now in a ferment about this question, and the famous compromise would probably prove a failure. Now, if the Church of England ever joined in a scheme of this sort, they would never be satisfied with anything short of the distinctive doctrines of their own church ; and lie was utterly opposed to any conference with any other denomination, especially with the Anglicans, because he did not believe that they could come to any satisfactory arrangement with them; and the presbytery should content itself with simply advocating Biblereading in schools without any religious teaching whatever.

The Rev. Mr Waddell seconded the motion. Some years ago, he said, he took an opportunity of publicly expressing the views which he held with regard to Bible-reading in schools. He then dissented from the orthodox opinion on the subject. On the present occasion he got up chiefly for the purpose of saying that he had changed his mind on the subject. It seemed to him that it was useless to go to their congregations with some vague statement that they wanted Bible-reading in schools. He thought the first thing and the most effective thing to do was to go to their congregations and say that they wanted a certain part of the Bible read in the schools. For his own part he did not, know that he could agree to the mere general reading of the Bible; but he thought it was incumbent upon them to draw up a scheme of Bible-reading suitable to themselves. Whether they would be able to adopt the London School Board scheme he did not know ; but he thought it would be a very wise thing in the first place to appoint a small committee to consider that scheme and see whether it was applicable to their circumstances, and, if not, to see what alteration could be made in it. It seemed to him that it was essential that they should have a scheme of lessons from the Bible, and not the Bible read promiscuously ; and if they went to their congregations with such a scheme, he thought that they would carry the greater number of their people with them. In the second place, he was sure that for the scheme to be effective they must have other churches associated with them in the matter. It seemed to him that the great bugbear was the Anglican Church. The position they took up with regard to Bible-reading in tchools was a greater difficulty than all the other difficulties that had been thrown in the way ; and if the presbytery could carry them with them in agreeing to simple Bible-reading in schools, he believed that they would have done a great deal indeed.

The Rev. Mr Will was sorry that any of their ministers were not prepared to concur in the London School Board scheme. At the same time the motion did nob commit the presbytery to that fecheme, and he should be perfectly satisfied if something were adopted in the direction of what Mr Waddell had referred to.

The Rev. Mr M'Kerrow: The London School Board scheme is not Bible-reading at at all ; it is Bible-teaching. The Rev. J. M. Sutherland : It is Biblereading and teaching of an unsectarian character.

The Rev. Dr Stuaut said bo felt that an injustice had been done to the Anglican Church in some of the remarks that had been made that d»iy. That church had all along joined

with the Presbyterians in their efforts to pramote Bible-reading in schools, and Bible-reading to the extent that ib was carried on by the London School Board. He did not hold that the Anglicans were a great hindrance to the movement. So far as he knew them in Otago they were with them to a man. The Rev. Mr Waddell observed that at the last conference on the subject the Anglicans were not with them. The Rev. Dr Stuart said at the last conference Bishop Nevill spoke in favour of the movement, and Bishop Julius called upon him and told him that though there were Anglicans who would prefer denominational schools, he personally was extremely anxious to join with the Presbyterians, and would cordially second their efforts to restore such Bible-reading and Bible-teaching into the schools as they had in London. He proceeded to say that he should like if the presbytery committed itself to Biblereading of some sort. Ho thought from the action of the synod they were unanimous in the matter ; and that they would have agreed to the recommendation of the committee of the synod. He was amazed at last meeting of the presbytery to see that so many were at sea en the matter, and that so many were despairing. It was the heartleesness of ministers in this matter, and the despairing way they had of looking at it that had damaged the matter, he thought. The presbytery should resolve unanimously that they were most desirous of seeing Bible-reading and teaching, such as was permissible under the English Act of 1870, in the schools of New Zealand. Then they should put themselves in communication with the sister churches; and he believed if they went about it heartily they should get from the Anglicans and from the other churches very decent, if not enthusiastic, support. He would move as an amendment — "That, in the higher interests of the youth of the colony, the Education Act of 1877 be so amended as to give permissive powjpr to school committees, as in England and Scotland by the act of 1870, to enjoin Bible-reading and elementary instruction of an unsectarian character in the national schools, subject to a time-table and conscience clause." Mr E. B. Cargill said they had gone really off the line upon which they first started in considering this question, which was that the people of that church should be enjoined that it was their duty to make every effort to get Bible-reading restored to the schools. It might be right at the proper time to secure the co-operation of other denominations in the matter, but that was nothing to do with the main question. It was somewhat disappointing to hear so many difficulties thrown in the way in the discussion that took place at the last meeting of presby tery. The mention of those difficulties made it the more imperative on the presbytery to carry out in its integrity what the synod directed to be done— that was, that their people should be called upon to do their duty in the matter. When the presbytery had determined upon the right thing, then they might ask other religious bodies to help them to get it carried out. He thought it was a pity they should hear objections against the Bible being read in the schools. The argument that ib was a book unfib to go into the schools was one to which they ought not to give aDy attention. He was nob aware that it had ever had any other than the good effect which God intended it to have where it had been read, and they might just as well say they would refrain from putting the Bible in their houses as to say they should refrain from putting it in the public schools. The Rev. Mr M'Kerrow agreed with Mr Cargill that they should do one thing at a time. The church should by itself first of all ask for the restoration of the Bible in schools, and Bible-teaching might come up afterwards, and also a conference with other religious denominations. He thought it was premature to be entering into negotiations with other denominations at that stage. He felt perfectly satisfied that if they agreed upon a scheme there would be trouble and difficulty with it, if any teaching except the plain teaching that the Bible gave were decided upon. The matter he had previously referred to showed that when unsectarian teaching was once granted an attempt would be made to get more than thab, and thab attempt would wreck the whole system. He had a very strong opinion that they should not commit themaelves to Bible-teaching at all, and that they should not commit themselves to open up any negotiations with other denominations, but thab they should take their stand upon a proper system of Biblereading. The question was how to arouse the church to a downright interest in getting the Bible into the schools.

The Rev. J. Gibson Smith said some of his brethren whose minds were thoroughly made up on this subject spoke as if it were rather a crime to have any doubts on the subject at all. He did not think it was wise or judicious to ask them to go into any movement that they could not feel the goodness of in their hearts. The difficulties with regard to the question were so great and serious that ho found it very hard indeed to see how they were to have any system of religious education in the schools worth striving for, or which, if it was worth striving for, they would be able to gain under present conditions. It seemed to him that what Mr M'Kerrow said about mere Biblereading in the schools at once explained why it was so difficult to get up any enthusiasm on the subject — because it was such a useless thing that he did not see any necessity to make a political agitation about it. What good did the mere reading of the Bible do ? The Rev. Dr Stuart : It doss a great deal of good. The Rev. Mr Smith proceeded to say that Dr Stuart had assured them that the Anglican Church could be depended on to co-operate with them, but Mr M'Kerrow had warned them that if they did it would lead to denominationalism. The experience of the London School Boards proved that his contention was true. He found in the very report of the English Church a motion which resulted in the sending round cf the circular, which most of them had received, recommending the adoption of the London School Board system. That circular was only hilf of the report that the English Church Commi'utee sent up to the synod. The other half committed the English Church to denominafcionalism. Bishop Julius said that what the English Church wanted was Bible-reading in schools on denominational grounds. He hoped to have had a copy of the report he had referred to to lay before the presbytery, but he could not get it in time ; but they could depend upon tha fact that, while the committee of the synod sent the circular to them which they had received, they reported to their synod that the rcsommendation was only the first step - that denominationnlism should come afterwards.

The Rev. Dr Stuart said he must stand up for Bishop Julius. Ho knew what the bishop told him, and that was that denominationalism would bo the best thing if obtainable, bub the great majority of his church would join thorn in their efforts to get Bible-reading in schools. For his part he was not afraidof denominationalism. He would not be afraid to see a few schools differently constituted from the ordinary schools.

The Rev. Mr Smith : I am very glad to see Dr Stuart come out.

Mr Oargill : Everybody thinks the same thing. The Rev. Mr Smith : Well, they don't say it then. The great objection to arousing any enthusiasm in this matter is that the result would be the establishment of denominationalism ; but if the members and everybody else in the presbytery thinks the same thing, let us go before our congregations bravely and tell them so. Mr Cargill : There is no one in this presbytery who does not wish that religion should be taught with education. I challenge anyone to deny ib. If we could have our own way we would have our own religion taught in the publio schools. The Rev. Mr Smith said that meant that they would all be prepared to pay the expense thereof. He understood that the Anglican Church had already one or two schecls in Christchurch, and they found it a desperate burden to maintain them. Now, he was not bo much in love with getting their own denominational ideas ingrained into the minds of the children as to be inclined to lay the extra burden upon their people. That, however, would be involved in the establishment of denominational schools. He thought if they maintained the present system a little longer until denominationalism had died a natural death, then the time might com 9 for them to have religious teaching to which they could agree. It was not the Bible they wanted in the schools ; it was the religion of the Bible taught in some such way thab all denominations could agree to it. It was not useless to despair of getting the Roman Catholics to agree to some scheme of religious education.— (Laughter ) He appealed to the fact that in America at the present day the Roman Catholics were making overtures to various members of .Protestant denominations to agree to some sort.of scheme of this kind. If it was a fact that the people of America were considering the matter, why should it be impossible in New Zealand ? If they were going into any kiod of Echeme for the mere formal reading of the Bible for a few minutes a day before or after ordinary school hours, he said that was making a mockery of religious education. It would do very little good, and would not justify them in saying that they were obtaining religious education for the colony. For his part, if the presbytery ordered him to go and speak to his congregation in this matter he would have to do it, but he did not think at present that he could see his way to work up any enthusiasm amongst his people for Bible-reading in schools. The Rev. Dr Stuart thought that they fohould first adopt the recommendation of the synod's committee. If th°y did not do so it would be like a slap in the face to the committee. The Rev. Mr Cameron said he would support Mr Will's motion. He did not believe so much in Bible-reading as in Bible-instruction, and he thought that they should go in for the London School Board scheme and nothing else. He did not say thab Bible-reading was not valuable, but the other was infinitely more valuable. This matter about denominationalism was simply a bogie. He did not see anything in it whatever. In England, where the Church of England was such a powerful body, they might fight for some kind of denominational instruction ; but the circumstances were different in New Zealand, and there was no danger here of breaking down the present gsystem. He was extremely sorry to hear Mr Smith represent the Anglican Church as he 'did. He (Mr Cameron) did not think that any body of Christians should mislead their fellow-creatures as they seemed to have done. The Rev. Mr Smith : I did not say that they were misleading them. I only said how they were acting. The Rev. Mr Cameron, proceeding, said he had always held that we had denominationalism of the worst sort in our schools under the present system. The schools of the colony were supported by the Government not with the view of teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic so much as to make good citizens. That was the ulterior aim the Government had in view ; but there could be no good citizens unless there was a moral foundation laid ; and how was a teacher to instruct in morality under the present system ? Where was the question of truth-telling coming up before children ? The teacher could not possibly seek to make them good citizens without instructing them to tell the truth.

The Rev. Mr Smith : Cannot they do that without Bible- reading ? The Rev. Mr Cameron held that a State schoolmaster could not say to those children that they ought to tell the truth except on the ground that it would pay them to do so. If he departed from that he departed from secularism at once. On that ground any secular system could be but the very worst form of denominationalism. They could only violate their secularism by instructing their children in a broader way under a true system of morality. But if they went on with their secularism pure and simple it would become aggravated, and ultimately they would have teachers teaching purely and simply that men ought to be honest because it paid to speak the truth, because if they did not they would not be trusted ; and to be kind to one another because it was more comfortable for society.

The Rev. Dr Stuart: There are no such teachers in Otago. The Rtv. Mr Cameron held that if teachers were inclined to do that, they could do it now.

The Rev. Mr M'Kerrow said that was not SO much an objection that was brought forward as this : that there were many teachers that did not want to teach religion. Some teachers were not religious at all ; and it was wrong to force them to teach religion. The Rev. Mr Cameron : That is only another class. Of course, religious Roman Catholics and so on might object to teach Protestantism ; but I hold that we can draw up a scheme that would suit all classes ; and if Mr Smith likes to say that Protestantism is denominationalism then we go in for it. It is not chimerical to believe that we can draw up such a scheme as will be an immense bopn to our children, and which will not imperil in the slightest degree the State system of free and compulsory education.

The Rev. Mr Adamson said before he came to the meeting thab day one of the most respected elders of the church in Otago told him that his children were at school where the teacher used to pick out a certain portion of Scripture mainly with the object of turning the whole thiDg into ridicule. The Rev. Mr Will : That would bo a very exceptional case. The Rev. Mr Adamson understood that any deputations the presbytery had sent to congregations were unable to aroilse any enthusiasm. He was convinced that the reason was this : that the people, as people, feared denominationalism. He thought it' they as a presbytery could agree to this one point, that they wanted Bible-reading in schools, he was convinced that he and other ministers could go to their congregations, and the backbone of the congregations would be with them.

The Rev. Mr Dutton said there was such a division in the presbytery thai; he was sure they would uover agree ou this question. He thought that no good would be done if they

did not adopt the recommendation of the synod's committee advocating Bible-reading in schools. He moved in that direction.

The Rev. Mr Will : Do you oppose consulting other denominations ? The Rev. Mr Dutton : I do, at present. The Rev. Dr Stuart said he would withdraw his own motion and second Mr Dutfcon's.

Leave to withdraw the motion was granted by the presbytery, and after further discussion Mr Dutton's motion, agreeing to the adoption of the recommendation of the synod's committee, was put and carried unanimously. The Rev. Mr Will's motion was subsequently carried without dissent, and the following committee appointed to give effect to tho resolution :— The Revs. Dr Stuart (convener), Rutherford Waddell, J. Gibb, and A. Campbell; Messrs E. B. Cargill and J. Reid (elders).

Oamaru, June 21.

At the annual meeting of the Bible-in-Schools Association, held to-night, it was dfcided to renew lasb year's petition to both Houses of Parliament for an amendment of tho Education Act permitting of the use of the Bible in schools, and to intimate to candidates for Parliament that members would be influenced in their voting by the bearing of candidates towards the question, Ib was also decided to urge concerted action throughout the colony.