DUNEDIN PRESBYTERY.

Otago Witness, Issue 2051, 15 June 1893, Page 5

DUNEDIN PRESBYTERY.

The Dunedin Presbytery met in the hall of First Church on the 7th, when there were present— The Revs. A. Greig (moderator), W. Will, A. P. Davidson, J. Gibson Smith, J M. Sutherland, E. J. Porter, J. M. M'Kerrow, J. M. Fraser, W. Campbell, J. Kirkland, J. Gibb, A. Cameron, D. Dutton, A. M. Finlayson, J. Christie, H. Adamson ; Messrs E. B. Cargill, Hutton, D. Thomson, F. Marshall, J. Paterson, W. Leslie, jun., J. Sawell, D. A, M'Nicol, and J. W. Laing. A COMMISSION. A communication was received from the Chalmers Church congregation, intimating that Mr Donald Thomson had been elected to represent them in the presbytery and synod for the ensuing { 12 months. — The commission was sustained. PRESBYTERY EXPENSES. The Clerk stated that the committee on the question of presbytery expenses met that morning, and agreed to recommend that the clerk's salary be fixed at £30 a year; and that the assessment on the various congregations has increased for this year by 10s each for the larger congregations, and by 5s each for the smaller ones. That assessment would raise a total amount of £49 105. It was supposed that that amount would meet the extra expenses of ministers travelling on presbytery business for some time to come. According to the recommendation the assessment would be :— First Church, £5 ; Knox Church, £5 ; St. Andrew's, £3 10s ; North Dunedin, £3 ; Port Chalmers, £3 ; Bast Taieri, £3 ; West Taieri, £3 ; Waikouaiti, North East Harbour, Anderson's Bay, Mornington, Kaikorai, Green Island, and Mosgiel, each £2 ss ; Caversham, £1 15s ; North Taieri, £1 15s ; South Dunedin, North-East Valley, Blueskin, and Chalmers, each £1 15s. Mr Cargill moved— "That the recommendation of the committee be approved," but the motion was not seconded. The Rev. J. Gibson Smith moved—" That the matter be again remitted to the committee for reconsideration, and to bring up an altered rate, based, not upon the old assessment, but upon a scrutiny of subscriptions raised in the various congregations ; the Revs. Gibb, Will, and Sutherland to be added to the committee." The Rev. Mr Cameron moved, as an amendment—"That the presbytery pass from the subject of special presbytery expenses to the next business." He did not think there was any necessity to consider the question of presbytery expenses. Most of the ministers had horses, and those who had not could borrow from those who The Rev. J. M. Fraser seconded the amendAfter some discussion the amendment was put and lost, only the mover and seconder voting in favour of it. . Mr Smith's motion was subsequently carried by a large majority. THE NEW HEBRIDES MISSION. The Rev. Mr Cameron brought under the notice of the presbytery that all letters and mission boxes for the New Hebrides required to be forwarded in time to be in Sydney by July 12.

BIBILE-READING IN SCHOOLS. The convener of the committee on the question of Bible-reading in schools forwarded a communication intimating that the committee met on April 11, 1893, when it was agreed to recommend the presbyteries to request their ministers to address their congregations on the importance and necessity of the Bible being read in the public schools within school hours and under a conscience clause, and also recommended their officebearers to use such effoits as may secure the return of members to Parliament who will vote for Bible-reading in the schools. The Rev. J. Gibb moved—" That the communication be received." He did not think any good would come of bringing the matter under the notice of congregations at the present time. The Rev. R. J. Porter seconded the rrotion. He thought it would be simply a waste of time to appoint deputations from congregations to endeavour to secure the return of candidates in favour of Bible-reading in schools. He questioned whether such action would influence a single voter. The Rev. J. M. Eraser thought some steps should be taken in connection with the matter. It had beeti before the presbytery for so many years, and surely they were not going to say now that they had been beaton, and that they were going to give it up. He knew that some congregations had been appointing deputations ; and in some cases enthusiasm had been got up in the matter, and some good had been done. He moved—" That the matter bs referred to a_ small committee, to report to the next meeting of The Rev. Mr Dutton said he was satisfied that most of the congregations were not in earnest in this matter. The Rev. Mr Fraser, : They ought to be. The Rev. Mr Dutton observed that whether they ought to be or not tbe fact remained that they were not; and he felt that if deputations were appointed it would introduce political parties into the church, which would do a great deal of harm. Many of their congregations had made no effort at all to get the Bible introduced into the schools. The Rev. Mr Fraser : More shame to them. Mr Cargill was very much surprised to hear an expression of opinion like that which had fallen from the lips of Mr Dutton. He thought the matter was one of supremo importance, and one that was worthy of being urged upon congregations by every possible means. It was only by keeping the matter before the public that they could hope to do any good. He would move— " That the recommendation of tho committee be sent down to the congregations, with a recommendation that they take such steps as they think fit to urge the matter upon congregations lie did not advocate the setting up of congregat loual organisations for political purposes. He thought it would be a very Bad thing if they saw congregations split up by discussions of purely political matters; but he did not look upon this as a purely political matter. It was a matter that did not appeal to political parties at all; but he thought that the presbyteiy should not look with equal favour on the men who wero opposed to everything to which the church attached importance and the men who were not, but should giva a preference to the latter. The Rev. Mr Fraser seconded Mr Cargills amendment. Mr Patekson thought Mr Dutton was perhaps

mistaken a little in saying that there was great indifference among the congregations on the question. He knew in the St. Andrew's congregation great interest was manifested in the matter. The Rev. Mr Dutton explained that he had simply Ftated what was a fact in his own experience with regard to the matter. The singular thing was that they would find people ready enough to agree to the advisability of getting the Bible introduced into the 'public schools, but when it came to the point of giving proof of their desire for the introduction of the book, where were they ? He himself was not opposed to Biblereading in schools, as was shown by tho fact that he had taken an active part in Southland and elsewhere in agitating on the matter. The Rev. Mr Cameron feared that Mr Cargill's motion did not go far enough. He thought it would be preferable if the presbytery were to take active steps in ojder to secure the co-operation of the other denominations in town in stirring up some interest in the matter. The Rev. Mr Gibb said if Mr Cameron moved in the direction he had indicated he would withdraw his motion in favour of Mr Cameron's. He endorsed all Mr Cargill had said on the subject, and he thought it was to their shame that they had done so little as a church to secure the return of fit and proper men to represent them in the national councils. He had the heartiest sympathy with the restoration of the Bible into the State schools; and the reason he moved hia motion was that he was utterly hopeless of any good coming out of the proposal that the matter should go before the congregations in the same way that it had gone so often already. He, however, approved of some new method of agitation, and of an effort being made to secure the cooperation of the other churches in Dunedin in connection with the matter.

The Rev. Gibson Smith thought that before the presbytery could agitate effectively in regard to the matter they wanted to get their own enthusiasm up to a higher pitch than it was at present ; and that could be done not so much by an appeal to their hearts as by enlightening their judgment. He confessed himself to being in a position of considerable perplexity on the subject. His sympathies were in favour of Bible-reading in schools, but he saw great difficulties in the way of its being brought about. As, for instance, tbo church had no control over the teachers in the public shools, and they did not know whether their exposition of the Bible would be of any value. Then they did not know how the introduction of the Bible into the schools would conflict with the claims of the Catholics. There were a great many objections against the proposal, and members of the presbytery should be prepared to meet every objection brought before them. Unless they were so prepared they could not carry the movement to a completion^ He thought that the presbytery should appoint a special day for a conference on this matter, so that they could have the subject threshed out thoroughly. He moved in the direction he had indicated. The Rev. Mr Adamson seconded the proposal. He was very much in the same position as Mr Gibson Smith in regard to the matter, and thought that they must take into account the fact that a large part of the community wanted, and would fight for, denominational education. The Rev. Mr Will thought Mr Gibson Smith's motion was decidedly the best under the circumstances. It would do a great deal of good to have a special day for the presbytery to consider the whole subject. He thoroughly sympathised with every possible effort that could be made to get the Bible restored to the schools, and he did not think there were any practical difficulties in the way. At all events, in New South Wales and in Ireland they had found that they could give a fair amount of Bible instruction in schools, whichwaa of immense value. He would support Mr Smith's motion as the best one at the present time. The Rev. Mr Dutton said he thought it would be wise to have two or three meetings. If they could get up some enthusiasm on the subject, that was what they required. The Rev. J. M. Sutherland observed that there had been a great deal of enthusiasm in the past, both in the synod and the presbytery, on the subject, but it might have died out. Mr Cargill said there was no reason why what had been done in London and other large cities in the old country should not be done here, and if they were strong in demanding that the Bible should be introduced into the public schools of the colony, and sought the aid of other churches, they would get what they wanted before long. As to the claims of the Catholics, he did not see any objection to their getting a grant for their schools. In Scotland and in Ireland the Catholic schools had an allowance like all other schools, and he could not see why the people of this colony should seek to perpetuate a system of opposition to the claims of the Catholics, and try to make themselves different from the people of other countries. He thought that was the opinion of a good many of the Presbyterians in town, and it was a great pity that their claims should be raised on that occasion. What the presbytery had to do was to get their people to introduce the Bible into the public schools for the benefit of their children. They should keep that point in view, and let the difficulties take care of themselves. After fuither discussion Mr Gibson Smiths proposal was agreed to, and it was decided that the conference on the subject be held in a fortnight.

RESIGNATION.

The Eev. W. Campbell wrote resigning his charge of the South Dunedin congregation on the ground of old ago and infirmity.— lt was resolved that the llev. Mr Cameron preach on Sunday next at the South Dunedin Church, and arrange for a congregational meeting to consider the resignation and report to next meeting of presbytery.

INSTRUMENTAL MUSTC. Leave was granted to the West Taieri and Anderson's Bay congregations to introduce instrumental music into their churches.

SADDLES,

AXLES,