FRIDAY, AUGUST 19. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Otago Witness, Issue 2009, 25 August 1892, Page 16

FRIDAY, AUGUST 19. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

In the Legislative Council to-day the Ocean Beach Domain Bill was read a second time, and also the Employers' Liability and Bankruptcy Bills. A number of local bills passed the Council.

BONUSES,

The Hon. Sir P. A. BUCKLEY, replying to Mr Stevens, said that up to date the Government had paid in bonuses under section 8 of the Fisheries Encouraging Act the sum of L 5780. The Eight Hours Bill was introduced and read a first time.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

In the House of Representatives the Government sustained a reverse on a motion to introduce the clause in the Stock Bill imposing a tax on stock. The Minister for Lands at once announced that he would abandon the measure. In the discussion which followed Mr G. Hutchison refused to withdraw a statement he had made that the Chairman had read a clause of the bill in putting the motion, and Mr Rees reported him to the Speaker. After a lengthy debate the Premier moved a resolution very similar in terms to that which led to Mr Bryce retiring from the House, but on the Houso resuming in the evening Sir George Grey read a statement from tho member of Waitotara that he had no intention of defying the chair, and the whole storm was ended. Ten bills of minor importance were then passed. The New Zealand Land Company Claimants Bill and the Native Land Purchase Bill were read a second time. Some progress was made with the Electoral Bill in committee before the House rose.

REPLIES TO QUESTIONS,

Mr T. MACKENZIE (Clutha) asked the Colonial Treasurer to explain how he reconciles the assertion made by him in the Financial Statement that there is a not reduction of the public debt of L 117.782 on the 31st March last, as' compared with the amount on 31sb March 1891, with the return from the Treasury now laid npon the table, which shows the net public debt in 1891 at L 37,343,308, and the net public debt in 1892 at L 37,675,206, or an actual increase of the net public debt of L 331.898 for the year.

Tho Hon. Mr BALLANCE said the figures in the Statement wcremido np on the estimate of the March quarter, while those in tho returns were compiled from actual re v us which had come in since. The figures in the Financial

Statement as to the decrease of the public debt were perfectly correct.

Mr MACKENZIE moved the adjournment of the House, and contended that there was no decrease in the debt, but an actual increase of L 334.311.

After further discussion, the motion for adjournment was lost.

Replying to Mr Fish as to what steps the Government propose to take to alleviate the distress existing amongst a large number of men now out of employment in the various large centres of population, and who aro clamouring for work, The Hon. W. P. REEVES said during the. last three months about 1500 men had been sent by the Labour Bureau out of tho various centres of population to work in country districtß, and he might say that during the same period 83 had been sent from Dunedin and 55 from Oamaru.

Replying to Mr Duthie, The Hon. A. J. CADMAN said the^Goverament had under consideration a bill to provide for the total abolition of imprisonment for debt.

Replying to Mr R. Thompson, Tho Hon. Mr BALLANCE said the Government recognised the importance of bringing Native lands in settled districts under the provisions of "The Rating Act 1882," bub they would not bo able to deal with it this session, and the matter would be considered during the recess.

THE STOCK BILL.

The Hon. J. M'KENZIE moved— "That clause 48 of the Stock Bill, providing that 2d per head be paid yearly for every head of cattle over 10 head, and 2s for every hundred or fractional part of a hundred sheep, bo referred to a committee of tho whole Houso." — Lost by 32 to 25.

The following is the division list : —

Ayes (25). — Messrs Ballance, Carncross, Carroll, Dawson, Earnshaw, Fi3hcr, Guinness, W. Hutchison, J. Kelly, Mackintosh, J. M'Kenzie, M'Lean, C. 11. Mills, J. Mills, O'Conor, Parata, Pinkerton, W. P. Reeves, E. M. Smith, W. C. Smith, Tanner, Taylor, T. Thompson, Valentine, Ward. Noes (32).— Messrs Allen, £lake, Bruce, Buckland, Duncan, Fergus. Fish, Fraser, llamlin, Harkness, Hogs, Houston, G. Hutchison, Kapa, Lawry, M. J. H. Mackenzie, T. Mackenzie, Meredith, Mitchclson, Moore, Newman, Palmer, Rhodes, Rolleston, Saunders, Swan, Shera, R. Thompson, Wilson, Wright.

Pairs. — For the amendment : Messrs R. H. J. Reeves. Against : Sir J. Hall.

The Hon. J. M'KENZIE said that after the decision arrived at by the committee he should not go on with tho bill.

The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said he could not congratulate the Minister for Lands on the position he had taken up over this matter. The clause which the committee had rejected was a very small item -compared with tho whole bill. He held that the committee had a perfect right to say what taxation should be imposed. The Minister had proposed a tax which would be vexatious to every small farmer in the colony, and the bill was just as complete without the clause that had been rejected as with it. He could not understand the exhibition of temper by tho Minister over the matter.

The Hon. Mr M'KENZIE denied that ha had exhibited temper.

Tho Hon. Mr BALLANCE said Mr Rolleston made a great deal of small matters of this kind. It was not a question of taxation at all, and tho proper time to discuss this clause was when tho bill was in committee of the whole Houso. Then the whole matter could bo properly discussed. Ho was surprised at the want of courtesy shown to the Minister for Lands over this matter, aud said it was unprecedented. No one denied the right of tho committee to rejoct this clause if it chose, but the Minister had also a legal right to drop the bill if he thought it necessary. A lengthy discussion ensued, which lasted till the 5.30 adjournment. HILLS PASSED. The Arms Act Repeal Bill, Provincial Ordinances Bill, Fisheries Encouragement Act Amendment Bill, Courts of Justice (Technical) Defects Removal Bill, Unclaimed Lands Bill, Aliens Act Amendment Bill, Waikouaiti Reserves Bill, Orakei Succession Bill, Palmerston North Courthouse Site Sale Bill, and Tahoraite Titles Bill were committed, read a third time, and passed. LAND CLAIMANTS. The Hon. J. M'KENZIE moved the second reading of the New Zealand Company's Land Claimants Bill, to provide for the final settlement of the rights of holders of land orders issued by the New Zealand\ Company and by the Plymouth Companjr of New Zealand, respectively. The bill originated in the Legislative Council and was passed in that chamber. The object of the bill was to give- power to publish notices in the Gazette and Home papers that those persons might put forward their claims to the land in question. — Agreed to. NATIVE LANDS PURCHASE BILL. The Hon. A. J. CADMAN moved fche second reading of the Native Land Purchase Bill, to provide for payments in the purchase of Native lands and for facilitating the acquirement of such lands. Tho' object of the bill, he explained, was to provide funds for the purchase of Native lands. It was proposed to borrow for this purpose L 50.000 a year, and issue debentures for it. It was said that this was borrowing on the sly, but he held the proposal iv the bill was a very fair one for the acquirement of those lands. He briefly detailed the leading principles of the bill, and pointed out that means would be taken by the bill to prevent the Natives from becoming paupers, as a deposit of half the purchase., money would be left in the Public Trust Office as an endowment in perpetuity for the vendors of the land. He hoped the House would agree to the second reading of the bill. The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON referred to Mr Cadmau's remarks as to borrowing on the sly, and said the Native Minister did not need to vindicate the principle that we wpre bound to borrow for the purchase of Native lands. He thought, however, that tho power given to tho Native Minister to. deal with- thesa lauds without appropriation was objectionable, as iv the case of the bill for purchase of European lands. It was a

6ystem of loose borrowing which was not justified at all. The proposal with respect to issuing debentures for the purchase of land was also a new feature, and savoured somewhat of a State bank. He approved of the proposal to pay the Natives in debentures. It was not desirable, in his opinion, to remove restrictions by the Crown from Native land without investigating whether they had any land left. Mr REES said the money set apart by tho Government for the purchase of Native lands was not sufficient, and they might have control of a larger amount than was proposed. Tho Government should also be empowered to enter into contracts lor the purchase of these lands subject to the ratification of the House, and he hoped in committee the Government would obtain a larger amount for the purpose of obtaining land. He supported the bill, and thought the Government were to be congratulated for proposing such a useful measure.

Mr DUTHIE had no objection to money being raised in this fashion for the purpose of Native land purchase, but he thought the sum should be LIOO,OOO instead of Lbo,ooo. He objected, however, to yearly borrowing, and thought the money should be appropriated by the House. If there were any independence in the Government supporters he hoped they would resist the proposal to borrow, unless it came before the House annually.

The Hon. G. F. RICHARDSON agreed with the previous speaker that the money should be voted annually by the House for this purpose, but L 50,000 was only as a drop in the bucket. He pointed out that there were about 10,000,000 acres of Native land, about 7,000,000 of which would pass into European occupation. A great deal of land was required for settlement, and the Government could not meet requirements in that direction. Some provision might therefore be made by which Natives could sell to other persons than tho Government so long as they did not sell in too large areas.

Messrs PARATA, KAPA, and TAIPUA spoke on the bill.

In replying, Mr CADMAN said he was agreeably surprised on hearing so many members express the opinion that the Government had not asked enough, and he congratulated Mr Richardson on his change of opinion with respect to the purchase of Native lands. Mr Rolleston had stated that he objected to the removal of restrictions, but the only way to acquire land was to allow the Crown to purchase irrespective of restrictions. Mr Duthie had objected to continual borrowing, but he at the tame time professed himself in favour of buying Native lands. How then could they purchase them if they did not borrow ? He was glad to find the bill so favourably received by the House, and he should accept any reasonable amendments in committee.

The motion was agreed to, and the bill referred to tho Native Affairs Committee.

ELECTORAL BILL.

The Electoral Bill was further considered in committee.

Clause 22, registrars to sec that tho rolls are complete, elicited some discussion, but passed without alteration.

Clause 26, name of elector may be objected

Mr W. C. SMITH moved to amend tho clause so that tho registrar would bo the only person who could object to tho namo of any person on the roll.

After a lengthy discussion tho clause, on tho Hon. Mr Ballance's motion, was postponed.

Clauses 29 and 30 were also postponed,

Clause 45, absentee names to be removed from tho roll if tho absence exceeds one year, was strongly opposed by Mr FISH and other members. It was eventually postponed.

Clause 48, persons whose names are removed may send in fresh claims for registration, also the proposed (clause 55) corrupt practices list to be appended to the roll.

Mr FISH moved that this clause be struck out. — Agreed to.

Clause 63, seamen, shearerß, and commercial travellers to make a declaration and claim for electors' rights.

Mr MOORE moved that those persons should not have an elector's right.

Several members urged that bushf ellers, sawmillers, &c, should be also included.

Mr TAYLOR asked that engine drivers and railway servants should be included in the clause.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCE said the Railway Commissioners had promised to make large concessions to railway employes on election day.

Mr Moore's amendment was lost by 41 to 12, and the clause passed without alteration.

Clause 73, writs for a general election to issue within 14 days after a dissolution.

Sir JOHN HALL moved to strike out "fourteen" and insert "seven." — Agreed to.

Clause 74 was altered to provide that on receipt of the warrant the clerk of writs shall issue writs within three days instead of forthwith, and writs were made returnable in 21 days instead of 40.

Clause 75, day of polling at a general election to be a public holiday.

Mr CARNCROSS moved that this clause be struck out.

After a lengthy debate the clause was struck out.

Clause 77 was altered to provide that the returning officer should give at least 10 days' notice of polling day instead of 15.

Clause 80, deposit by candidate,

Mr TAYLOR moved that the deposit of LlO ba struck out. — Lost on the voices, and the clause carried.

Clause 88, hours of polling.

Mr SANDFORD moved that the poll commence at 8 in the morning instead of 9. — Clause postponed.

In clause 107,

Mr SAUNDERS moved an ameudment in the direction of a modified Hare system of elections. His object, he said, was to make minorities in towns more fairly represented.

The Hon. Mr BALLANCJE said it meant that if tho Hare system were put in force in four large towns of tho colony, it would be inconsistent with the spirit of the bill, and he should have to oppose it. In deference, however, to the wish of the House, and in view of a lengthy discussion, he should move to report progress. — Agreed to.

THE LAND BILL

Confederation of the Land Bill by the Waste Landa Committee was concluded to-day, but some of the clauses were postponed till nest week for the purpose of reconsidering the decision of the increase of the rent of the " eternal leases" from 4 per cent, to 5 per cent, on the capital value. There is also an effort being made to give the holders of these leases the right to mortgage, and creditors tho right to seize them, but this, will meet with much opposition. • THE AGRICULTURAL INDUSTRY COMMITTEE. At a meeting this morning of the committee recently appointed to consider the agricultural and pastoral industries, Mr T. Mackenzie was appointed chairman. The committee will have the Dairy Industry Bill under consideration, and will discuss other matters relating to agricultural pursuits, taking under their charge a good deal of tho work under this head entrusted to the Manufacturing and Industries

Committee. It is feared, however, that it is too late in the session for anything practical to be done.

THE CO-OPERATIVE SYSTEM,

It is stated here that delegates representing contractors in all parts of the colony are now arriving in Wellington with a view of interviewing the Premier to protest against the co-opera-tive contract system of the Minister for Public Works, as being in all its principles unsound, and calculated to injure the contractors, the bona fide working man, and the colony as a whole. SIR GEORGE GREY ON THE CORRESPONDENCE.

In the course of an interview Sir George Grey informed the correspondent of the Lyttelton Times that while he had not fully made up his mind on the subject of the correspondence between the Ministry and the Cabinet, so far his opinion was decidedly in favour of Lord Glasgow's contention that Ministers' proper course was to have resigned. It was an established principle that the people could not too often be appealed to. Public opinion was constantly changing, and Ministers had no right to assume that the majority of the electors were still in favour of their policy. In any case Sir G. Grey expressed a strong opinion that any Premier jealous of his own dignity and the liberties of the people would at once have resigned on receiving Lord Glasgow's memo, of . July 30, peremptorily demanding the production of certain information and fixing the day and hour within which this command should be complied with. He says the Governor has a right to information, but has no right to demand it offensively. Tho Premier has co-ordi-nate powers with the Governor, and as representing the people ought to have resented being ordered like a lackey. Sir George thinks if the electors thoroughly understood the position they would condemn the course pursued by the Ministry, siuce it placed tho real government of tho colony in the hands of the Secretary of State, instead of in tho hands of tho people.

JOTTINGS

It is suggested that members of the Legislative Council who are now on the life roll, and who may in future of their own free will resign from old age or ill-health, may retain the title of "honourable," the parliamentary library privileges, and a free railway pass. The member for New Plymouth is moving in this direction.

A return was presented to Parliament to-day showing that the assessed value of all lands (exclusive of improvements) and excluding any Crown and Native lands upon which a land tax could be levied, is L 63,723,895.

Ministers now expect the session to close about the first week in October.

There is such a persistently loud buzz of conversation always now that it is very difficult to hear any member with certainty. Neither Speaker nor Chairman of Committees seem able to check the practice or to preserve quiet.