THE FINANCIAL DEBATE.

Otago Witness, Issue 2004, 21 July 1892, Page 17

THE FINANCIAL DEBATE.

On the House resuming at 7.30 p.m., on the motion that the House go into Committee of Supply, The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said he wished to make a few remarks on the Financial Statement. He said he did 60 at some disadvantage, owing to the House not having been put in possession of the necessary information to enable it to discuss the finances of the colony, especially the amendments to the Land and Income Tax Bill, about which the House had good reason to feel some annoyance in consequence of the Premier refusing to give them any information at all about those amendments. He complained also of the absence of the requisite information in several other respects, especially as to withdrawal of capital from the colony. They all know there had been very considerable withdrawal of capital, and in a numbei of instances that withdrawal had been directly due to the uncertainty with regard to the policy of the Government. As .far as the Budget disclosed the financial position of the colony, that was a matter for congratulation, but that position was not due to the present Government, or the present Parliament. It was due to the determination that had been arrived at by the former Government to abandon profligate borrowing, and to have none of that State interference which the present Treasurer wished to force on the colony. The present position of the colony was also due to the industry and perseverance of settlers and the marvellous development of the frozen meat and wool industry, an industry which some of the gentlemen opposite sneered at. It was due, further, to the butter and cheese industry, which was second only to that of frozen meat. It was, in fact, due to everything but the existence of the present Government. The Budget was, no <loubt, a matter for congratulation, but it was due to a former finance, which was most ungraciously passed over by the present Treasurer. He referred to the fact that from 1882 to 1888 the colony went through a period of financial depression, which it staggered under, but it was now beginning to recover, as our exports so largely exceeded our imports, and so enabled the colony to pay its way. He referred to the exodus which had prevailed for some time, but which the Government claimed they had stopped. He thought, however, the stoppage of the exodus was not due in any way to the present Government. The Ministry had evidently realised that a borrowing policy would not go down with the country, and they had altered their views in that respect. The Ministry had not been chiefly distinguished for their own good administration, but with finding fault with their predecessors. The important work to be done at present was the roading of the country, and had the Government been alive to the necessities of the country last year they would have put aside a remnant of the loan for bridging and roadiug the country, instead of buying political support. They were told they must have no more foreign loan companies, which the Treasurer said had been making such a noise. It was no doubt true there was a large amount of money in the banks, but it was due to a reluctance to launch into fresh enterprise and to the stagnation brought about by strikes, which were encouraged by the great leaders of popular opinion. Several other courses operated to accouut for this accumulation of cairital. The deposit returns during the past year, so far from showing a congestion or increase, showed there was a gradual process of investment, and that deposits were required for the natural trade of the colony. The Government were propounding theories to shake the confidence of investors, but they were careful not to do anything till they found whether it was popular or not. 'I hey foreshadowed a further protective policy, and an import duty on coal was actually spoken of, which he regarded as the maddest of proposals. Mr Reeves had spoken lately of the assistance he had given in obtaining a protective tariff ; but he would ask if the colony was better off since that policy was inaugurated. The real prosperity of the country depended on the free interchange of commodities, and the working classes were beginning to feel that their prosperity depended on the general prosperity of the country — not on labour bureaus or other .great schemes started by the present Government. He strongly condemned the Premier's attitude with respect to the taxation of debentures, and his refusal to give the House information on that point which lie gave to people outside the House. As tor the Statement itself, he had never read one that contained more disguised borrowing than the present one, and he should wait with some interest to hear what was said about it by Mr Saunders, who had a horror of borrowing of all kinds. The Government were sweeping everything into the Public Trust Office, and the moneys of this office and the Government Insurance department simply helped thoTreasurertomakcuphisfinance. He referred to several other portions of the Statement which foreshadowed borrowing. He was not a believer in large estates being allowed to be unproductive, but he did not like the proposals for their purchase as they stood, and he was satisfied that the business of land purchasing uncontrolled by the House was a most dangerous power to put into the hands of a Government. Referring to the accumulation of public trust funds, he questioned whether the Government was competent to carry on the business, and he had grave misgivings as to whether such duties should be undertaken by a Government. There was now a quarter of a million of trust funds held in mortgages and L 280,000 Government Insurance Office funds. Some of the mortgages were notoriously bad. The present Government was very fond of committees, and that being so he should suggest the formation of a committee to inquire into the whole position of these funds and see whether a wise policy was being adopted in that respect. He condemned the Government Native policy, and thought they would not stay long on the benches if they had not a more satisfactory policy in that respect. As to the present Land Bill, his opinion was that it was no advance in the direction of a liberal policy for settling the people on the land. There could be no liberal policy so long as capitalists and speculators were brought into competition with the working man. Coming to the taxation question he admitted that a change was called for owing to the working of the property tax, and the new taxation would shortly be tested in a practical way. He thought, however, that those who clamoured loudest for a change would be most disappointed to the result. There was great dissatisfaction over the assessments under the land and income tax throughout the country, and he knew that many assessments were extremely unequal and unfair, He then re-

ferred to the present Estimates, one item in which was L4OO, presumably for the salary of the Postmaster-general. He must say he was glad Mr Ward had not drawn it, but there was no excuse whatever for tho item appearing On the Estimates. The question came up last session, but the sum was not challenged, as it would have been useless to do so. He did not say for a moment that Mr Ward should not receive a salary for his services as Postmaster-general, but he held that the position was quite unconstitutional, as the House had by act been greatly reduced, and it was in direct violation of that act that so many Ministers should sit on the benches in a reduced House. Ministers had taken great trouble over the Edwards case, which they regarded as unconstitutional, but the whole thing could have been dealt with by the House, and there was no need to spend thousands of pounds in taking the case to the Privy Council . One clause of an act passed by the House would have determined the position in this case, and it seemed to him utterly inconsistent that Ministers should appoint a Postmastergeneral to the Cabinet in such an unconstitutional way. Referring to the manner in which the Premier had endeavoured to be informed as to the appointment of the Governor, he said the hon. gentleman had assumed the airs of an autocrat strutting about bedizened with feathers of spurious Liberalism. The Premier had told them at Auckland that if the Governor did not agree to stuff the Legislative Council he would resign his office ; but had he done so ? He ventured to say that it was the first time that a Government had remained in office after their advice had been twice rejected by the Crown. He had seen throughout the country notes of admiration over the Financial Statement, but those who understood it would agree there was not much cause for congratulation. The Treasurer would have them believe he was an expounder of a policy of self-reliance. The only part about it was that there was nothing in it that would last.

The Hon. J. G. WARD said Mr Rolleston's concluding statements about the Budget were very different . from those of the beginning. He had first congratulated the Government on such a satisfactory Budget, but before concluding he had characterised the Budget as Socialistic. He accused Mr Rolleston of having done more during the recess to set class against class than any other member, and whenever he addressed a meeting in the colony he adopted these tactics. — (Mr Rolleston: "Never.") He should like to ask Mr Rolleston, when he predicted that the Government were galloping to]a deficit, whether he would give the late Government credit for that deficit in the same way as he attributed the surplus at present in hand to a former Government. Mr Rolleston had referred to a borrowing policy, but he pointed out that the hon. gentleman and his side of the House were responsible for nine millions of borrowed money ; and if it were true that an increase of taxation were the only way to create a surplus, the Opposition side of the House up to a year or two ago had never favoured the colony with a surplus. He was annoyed to hear that hon. gentleman declare that their future work should be the roading of the^ colony. But who objected to the bill of last year? Why, the Opposition side of the House. The present Government had spent L 280,000 last year in this direction. Mr Rolleston had referred to the present taxation as primitive, but had he known the fact that the present Government proposed to exempt L3OOO improvements as well as LSOO exempted under the property tax ? He referred to the misleading cablegrams that were sent time after time when the new taxation was announced, aud asked whore those cablegrams came from. Not from the Government side of tho House, so it iiiu--L have biien from the hon, gentlemen opposite, who were so anxious to regain pub M'—ion of the Treasury benches. The hon. gentleman had referred to Protection, but he would point out that he was a member of the Government who had first established Protection in order to raise revenue. What was the good of talking of the free interchange of our commodities when other colonies had shut their ports against us ? He (Mr Ward) did not believe in a retaliatory policy, but if there ever was a time when a high protective policy seemed advisable it was under the present conditions. A great deal had been made of the Premier having refused to give information to the other side about duplicate taxation. He might say that the Government proposed to deal with that question, but the Premier, like any other man with spirit, was not going to have his hand forced by the Opposition. Mr Rollestonhad referred to the Estimates, but he wished to say that the present Government had stuck to their Estimates, and had not abandoned them like tho Government of which the hon. gentleman was a member. He ventured to assert that the civil service was never in a better position than at present, and the bill brought in by the Government would improve that position. Referring to Mr Rollestou's remarks about the public trust funds, he pointed out that the Government did not intend to use that money without the sanction of the House. What the Government intended to do with the money in the Public Trust Office was to lend it at a low interest to small farmers, and the hou. gentleman must know perfectly well that the Government could not use those funds for public purposes without coming to the House. The hon. gentleman had criticised the Native policy of the Government, but he asserted the Native race had never been more contented than at the present time, aud that showed whether their policy was a success or not. He quoted from figures to prove that there was a considerable demand for land in all parts of the colony, notwithstanding Mr Rolleston's assertion that the demand for land was much overrated. As to Mr Rolleston's assertion about the unfairness of the assessment under the land and income tax, he pointed out that there were fewer appeals under the present tax than in the first year of the property tax. He next referred to the remarks made about his position in the Government. There was no analogy whatever between his own position and that of Judge Edwards, and he quoted the judgment of the Privy Council, which showed that the Government of this colony had no right whatever to appoint a judge without a salary. Did the hon. member ask the House to believe that the Government could not appoint an extra Minister without salary ? Why, the thing was absurd. He was not going to bow to Mr Rolleston in his desire to get rid of him off the benches. When he left those benches he should do so with his colleagues, but he would not allow himself to be hurled off them by the Opposition. He deprecated the practice that Mr Rolleston so often indulged in of endeavouring to create a feeling between the Legislative Council and a section of the House, aud he should advise that gentleman, who held such a responsible position, not to continue such a practice. As to the Statement being such a dark one, he (Mr Ward) thought it particularly bright. Why, even a paper like the Otago Daily Times, which did not usually support the Government side of the House, wrote very fairly of the Statement. He might say the same with respecb to the Christchurch Preb;> and Auckland

Herald, neither of which supported the Government. But those papers had risen above party on this occasion, and given the Budget fair consideration. Under such circumstances as these one would imagine that the other side of the House would have refrained from such unfair criticism, of the Statement. Mr Rollestou had complained of the delay in bringing down the Public Works Statement, but he had never known that Statement brought down so early in the session ; in fact, in several sessions within his experience, they were all tired out before even the Financial Statement was brought down, whereas the present Budget was submitted a few days after the opening of the session. After referring to the conversion operations of the present Government, he said it was a wise course for the Treasurer to adopt conversion and to release the sinking fund as he had done. He twitted the Opposition on the absence of a financier in their ranks, and about the difficulty of finding a Treasurer when their time came to take office. When that time came there would no doubt be keen competition between several embryo treasurers, including Dr Newman, Clutha Mackenzie, Mr Allen, and probably Mr Valentine. He denied that the Government had been a " scatter-cash " Ministry, and said they had been as economical as possible. It had been frequently stated that the Government were going in for a borrowing policy either in or out of the colony. As the Treasurer's statement in that respect had created great disappointment amongst ;the Opposition ranks he hoped that bubble had been pricked, as it was quite impossible for the Government to borrow the public trust funds without the authority of Parliament. The Government did not propose to borrow either within or without the colony, and the ironical laughter which the Opposition had just indulged in was a further sign of disappointment. The Government seriously intended, so far as the colony was concerned, that their policy should be self-reliant, and they were not going to be dependent on people who, having made large sums of money in the colony, were the first to turn and rend it. He warmly praised the efforts of the Minister for Lands to settle the people on the land, and asserted that there never had been a Minister in office who was actuated by a better desire for the proper settlement of the country. That being the case, he deprecated the constant attacks from which even members of his family were not spared. He referred to the establishment of the labour bureaus, and stated that a large number of people had received employment through their agency. The country was in a. prosperous position at present, notwithstanding the combined attacks made on it and the Government by opponents of the Ministry. He advised Mr Rolleston, next time he criticised the Financial Statement, to see that he had to deal with a Government that was less careful than the present one ; and when he next looked for dark spots in the Budget, he might probably not find such bright ones as were to be found in the present Financial Statement.

Mr G. HUTCHISON (Waitotara) was ready to congratulate the Government on having put up Mr Ward to reply to Mr Rolleston, but he was grievously disappointed at his speech, as nearly the whole of it was taken up with recrimination. What had they to do with the Continuous Ministry ? Was it ever likely to be revived ? He thought not. There was a general idea that the Treasurer did not* understand the details of finance, but there was a general idea that the Postmaster-general with his commercial knowledge would have thrown some light on the finances of the colony, but in this they were greatly disappointed. Mr Ward had stated Mr Rolleston had endeavoured to set class against class, but he had not given any proof whatever of that assertion, Mr Ward had referred to the savings of the past year, and he did nob wish to deny that they had saved in some departments and had exceeded in others, or that credit remained to their good of L 12,622. He wished, however, that Ministers had not been so anxious to add to their number. The Postmaster-general was first to be added to the Ministry. Although he accepted no salary, that did not make the matter any more acceptable, as, being a member of the Ministry, he drew travelling allowances and a house allowance of L2OO a year. The latest Minister to join the Cabinet was Mr Carroll, and his appointment was somewhat peculiar as they had been told the Native department was to be abolished. Mr Carroll also was entitled to travelling allowance besides a salary. If there was anything clear in the act of 1887, when the House was reduced, it was that it was also intended that the number of Ministers should be reduced. They, however, had first six, then seven, then eight Ministers — a greater number than held seats on the Treasury benches when tha House had 20 more members than at present. That, he considered, was an undue preponderance in the voting power, as when Ministers voted they could decide any question that came before the House. He referred to the surplus of the present year, and pointed out that the estimated surplus for next year was L 250,346, but the mode in which that was proposed to be used was not one that would be conducive to the welfare of the colony. Referring to the question of borrowing, Mr Ward was, perhaps, correct in stating that there would be no more borrowing ; but there was an old proverb, [' To beg, borrow, or steal," although he, of course, did not apply that to the Ministry. They were not going to borrow, but they would use some money that accrued in the Public Trust Office. They were told that money was to be lent to small farmers, but the money was controlled by a board — one of whom was the Public Trustee, a political officer eiUirely under the control of the Treasurer. Was it to bo supposed that if the Treasurer required L 200.000 or L 300,000 of this trust money he would not obtaiu it uuder these circumstances ? He referred at some length to the question of the withdrawal of capital owing to the alarming feeling of insecurity that existed o-\er the Government proposals, aud pointed out that6| per cent, for money was an abnormal rate of interest. He charged the Government with playing into the hands of capitalists by their proposals, and said that the industrious settler had been taxed for the benefit of loan companies. With reference to what he regarded as the injudic : ous speech made by Mr W. P. Reeves last session about social pests, he s.iid that speech, coming from a Minister of the Crown, had done the colony incalculable harm, and if the Minister for Education spent the whole -f his political life»in trying to undo that harm, he would still be in the colony's debt. He referred at length to the land policy of the Government, and said that there was no doubt whatever freehold tenure was in danger. Thej' must be prepared, therefore, to stand by freehold at all hazards.

Mr GUINNESS referred to Mr Hutchison's statement that the Treasurer had not a grasp of the financial position of the colony, and said he considered that Mr Ballance was well acquainted with the details of his department. He warmly praised the administration of the Government, and challenged anyone to prove that they did not stand in a favourable light in this respect as compared with their predecessors. The Government, he thought, were sincere in their desire to carry out their fiscal policy

in such a manner as to. attract capital to the colony instead of sending it away. He denied that capital was leaving the colony, and contended that every member of the Government party had as much opportunity of judging whether or not this was the case as any member of tho Opposition. Mr Hutchison had said tho Government were not going in for a borrowing policy, but they were going to take money from the Public Trust Office. He asked what warrant he had for such an assertion, as there was no statute that permitted it. He combated the statement made by Mr Hutchison that money was dearer now than before the Government policy was announced, and ho asserted that money could be had now on firstclass security at the same rate of interest as 12 months ago. The establishment of a labour bureau, to his mind, was one of the best acts of this Government, and there were now none of the soup kitchens and subscription lists going round that existed before the bureau was started. The co-operative system of work was also most valuable, and of immense benefit to men taking contracts. Ho defended the land policy of the Government, and said the perpptual lease system was the best yet devised for the settlement of the country. The Government also deserved the confidence of the House for its reduction of the civil service and the economy effected in its administration. A great deal had been said about Ministerial travelling expenses, but he held it was the duty of Ministers — all of whom, excepting the Premier, were new to office — to travel round the country and endeavour to make themselves acquainted with its wants. Mr ALLEN moved the adjournment of the debate. — Agreed to. The House rose at 12.4-5. THE AWAKINO BLOCK. Mr John Elliott, chairman of the Waitara Harbour Board, is at present in Wellington with the object of interviewing the Minister for Lands for the purpose of inducing the Government to grant the settlers who have takeu up land in the Awakino block, in the Taranaki district, assistance in making a road through the bush to enable them to have communication with the Main Trunk railway/ There are some 56,000 acres in the block, 50,000 of which have already been taken up by some 30 settlers. The road is estimated to cost about L6OO, and the settlers are willing to find half of this amount provided the Government find the other half and construct a bridge across the Awakiuo river, estimated to cost L6OO. Mr Elliott is to have an interview with the Minister for Lands to-morrow. MISCELLANEOUS. The Waste Lands Committee recommend to the favourable consideration of the Government the petition of Frederick Eason and others for a road to their properties at Catlins, Glenomaru, Otago. The following bills were announced to-day :—: — Hon. J. M'Kenzie — Dairy Industry Bill, Codlin Moth Bill, and Stock Bill ; Hon. W. P. ReevesManual a*d Technical Elementary Instruction Bill ; Sir J. Hall— Bill to Amend the Fencing Act ; Hon. R. J. Seddon— Shipping Act Amendment Bill. The law having been found practically inoperative in securing the attendance at school of a number of children of the proper age, Mr G. Hutchison asks the Government to introduce such necessary legislation as will enable education boards and school committees to carry into effect a judicious system of compulsory attendance. Mr Earnshaw is pressing the Government to give effect to the resolution of tho House last session touching school books, which has been so favourably received by school boards, in the following direction — namely, to have at least one School Reader book of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Standards compiled.