THURSDAY, JULY 7. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Otago Witness, Issue 2003, 14 July 1892, Page 16

THURSDAY, JULY 7. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

The Council met at 2.30 p.m. A VACANCY. A message was received from the Governor intimating that the seat of Mr J. C. Richmond had become vacant by resignation. BILLS PASSED. The Registration of Births and Deaths Amendment Bill and Adulteration Acts Amendment Bill were read a third time and passed. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. The House met at 2.30 p.m. REPLIES TO QUESTIONS. The Hon. R. J. SEDDON said the Government were of opinion that the Coal Mines Act of last session gave power to nationalise occupied aud unworked coal mines in the colony. NEW BILLS. The following bills were introduced :—Westland and Grey Education Boards Bill, Labour Department Bill, Criminal Code Bill. A DUTY ON OOAL. The Hon. Mr SEDDON resumed the interrupted debate on the motion that an import duty should be placed on nil coals imported into the colouy. He said that the Railway Commissioners had reduced the cost of the carriage of coal from the mines at Westport, the reason given by them being that they found coal was delivered in Wellington from Newcastle 6s per ton less than West Coast co« 1 could be delivered and sold. The cause of that was that the Newcastle collieries had lost their markets, and were now sending supplies to New Zealand. He also stated that last year 120,000 tons of coal were imported into New Zealand, and if they had now that quantity in the colony, their colliers would have received L 20.000 more than they had received. He should therefore move—" That the matter be referred to a select committee to make inquiries,"—after which the House could deal with it, and come to a definite conclusion. He should be happy to consult the leader of the Opposition as to the constitution of the committee. Mr JACKSON PALMER seconded the amendment. The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said he should not be_ a party in any way to setting up any committee on a question of this magnitude. It was mosb undoubtedly a question of Freetrade and Protection, aud coal was one of the principal industries of the colony. He hoped the House would hesitate before doing such a great wrong as putting a duty on coal. It w«s no argument in its favour to say New South Wales adopted a protective policy. The House should not impose a penalty of this kind on the working people and consumers of coal. The question was a large one of policy, and the Government should lead the House iv the matter, let them bring down a resolution, and stake their existence on it. They should put as few restrictions on the interchange of trade as possible, and a protective policy was a most dangerous one for this colony to adopt. Mr ALLEN twitted Ministers with a desire to shirk a large responsibility in this matter. They were afraid to face the question and take a vote on ib. He said he spoke as one of the largest shareholders in a coalmine, and they did not want this 5s duty on coal. He strongly condeintiLd Mr Seddon for the proposal. The Hon. W. P. REEVES was glad Ministers were charged with timidity and a desire to abrogate their functions, as for the last 18 months they were charged with tyranny and with using their brutal majoriby to carry everything before them. He thought Mr Rolleston had not chosen a good time to raise the question of Protection in the House, as they might well devote a fortnight to such a subject. This colony had not shut out Newcastle coal, although New South Wales had shut out New Zealand produce, but it was because this colony possessed such an abundance of coal that the question of putting on a duty on coal was worth consideration. If they wanted to get their produce admitted into New South Wales they should show that colony that New Zealand could bite. He was somewhat doubtful as to the expediency of putting a permanent duty on coal, but thought they might well put a retaliatory duty ou it. He thought it very advisable that a question of this kind should be referred to a select committee. Mr FISH quite agreed with Mr Rollestou that this question did not require the intervention of a committee, and that the Government should themselves move in the matter. At the same time he fully agreed that there should be a duty on coal. Captain RUSSELL hoped the House would ' not agree to pass any resolution to impose a duty on coal. This was an important question of policy, aud he believed if the leader of the Opposition had submitted such a proposal Ministers would have treated it as a vote of noconQdence, and whipped up their supporters to defeat it. He referred to Mr Reeves' remark that Ministers had hitherto been called tyrants, but hu said it was well known that tyrants were always cowards when they could not carry their object. He was surprised at Mr Reeves, who was Minister for Labour, wishing to stop the wheels of industry, as they must undoubtedly stop, unless they could have cheap coals. He believed that the time was coming when our own coals would be so cheapened by new mines being opened up thab Newcastle coal would have no market in this colony at all. Farmers would suffer iv every possible way by a duty on coal, and the freezing industry would seriously suffer also. Why the freezing companies in Ilawke's Bay found that it was at present more economical to burn wood than coal even at its present cheap rate, and yet it was jiroposed to pub a duty on that article, which would undoubtedly raise its price. Mr SAUNDERS said he regarded this motion as one of the practical jokes of the member for Inangahua, and he was surprised to find that Ministers of the Crown seriously submitted such a proposition to the House at all. His opinion was that cheap coal was the very foundation of our manufacturers, and if a duty were imposed ou it ib would inevitably

injure the colony and make it absolutely impossible for it ever to become a great manufacturing country. He felt so strongly on this question that no matter what he thought of the question of parties, he should vote against any Government that proposed a duty on coal. Mr Valentine was speaking when the House adjourned at 5.30 p m. COHONEUS' INQUESTS. The Houso resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr TAYLOR moved the second reading of the Coroners' Inquests Bill to amend the law relating to coroners' inquests. The bill provides that the dead house of hospitals should be a public morgue. It also provides that a juror at inquests, who has travelled more than two miles should receivo 6s a day for every day on which he attends for more than four hours, and 3s 6d for a period not exceeding four hours. If not more than two miles jurors should receive 5s a day and 2s 6d a day for a period not exceeding four hours. He hoped the House would agree to the second reading of the bill. — Agreed to. COMPENSATION TO LICENSED VICTUALLERS. Mr LAWRY moved the second reading of the Compensation to Licensed Victuallers Bill. He thanked those members who wero strongly opposed to his bill for not putting any obstacles in his way in bringing it before the House. Hs had taken means to have the bill sent in detail to Auckland, and he had reason to believe that ib met with the approval of his constituents. The only opposition he had received was from the Rechabite Society and from some women in Auckland. He had been accused in taking up this bill of being hand and glove with the liquor traffic, but he had publicly stated that he should vote for compensation for loss of licenses. He was aware that the bill was jeopardised by the provision that local bodies should contribute to the compensation fund, but that merely meant that local bodies should hand back as a protection fund moneys out of a fund which licensed victuallers themselves had provided. He should not detain the House at the present stage, but should reserve future remarks till the time came for a reply. Mr MEREDITH opposed the bill, and regretted the indecent haste with which Mr Lawry had moved the second readiug, aa the bill had not been circulated long enough to make its provisions thoroughly known. He had no doubt the anomalies of the bill would be shown up by other members, but he should deal with three leading features of the bill—continuity of licenses, compensation, and an appeal court. The first he strongly opposed, and said that if any committee had given any promiso of renewal or continuity of licenses they had failed to administer the law, and were liable to a charge of being conspirators against the public weal. There was uo such thing either in England or in the colony as an acknowledging principle of continuity of license. Then, with respect to the compensation claims, there could be no ground for compensation, as he had shown that there was no such thing as continuity of licenses, andtheHousecouldnotagreotoabill embodying the principle of compensation. Who were to be compensated? The licensee and lessor. In most houses in the colony the licensees were in the hands of brewers and spirit merchants, and it was to these men that compensation was to be granted ; not to the licensees. If the question could be submitted to the people he ventured to say nine-tenths of them would vote against any compensation being given to the promoters of the liquor traffic. He hoped the Government would give no uncertain sound in this matter, and would not countenance a bill of this kind. They were also told in the bill there should be an appeal courb, and in case of the refusal of a license by a committee the magistrate should be appealed to. Ho was quite satisfied with the licensing law as it stood at present-, and he hoped the Government would not support the bill. An important question of this kind should not be dealt with by a private member. He held in his had sheaves of telegrams from all parts of the colony protesting agaiust any alteration in the licensing laws, with which the people were very well satisfied. He hoped the House would refused to accept such an iniquitous measure as had been introduced. Mr FISH could not understand why there should be the slightest opposition to this bill. It contained, to his mind, such a fundamental principle of justice thathe was surprised to see it so much opposed. Why its very provisions held out an inducement to committees to refuse licenses, and consequently to diminish the liquor traffic, which one would imagine the opponents of the bill would be glad to encourage. He quoted from a large number of authorities in support of his argument that compensation was fair and equitable, and stated that in 1885 the principle of compensation became law in Victoria, and publicans were paid there out of the consolidated revenue to the extent of the loss which they could prove that they suffered. If this bill became law, he (Mr Fish) would shut up many of the licensed houses that at present existed without the slightest compunction, as there were far too many of them. He appealed to the House to do simple justice to those concerned by passing the bill, and if in committee it was determined to strike out the portion of the bill which provided that local bodies should pay compensation. The promoters of the bill would have to consider what should be substituted for that. The Hon. J. BALLANCE could not agree with all the provisions of the bill, but as he agreed with the principle of compensation he should vote for the second reading with the intention of amending it, if possible, in committee. He had in 1877 himself moved in the direction of compensation, aud carried it by a large majority. It was only reasonable that where a man went to a large expense in erecting a house compensation should be made in case of the license being taken away, but as regards the future, they should provide that there should be no compensation, and he thought that was a wise provision in the cause of temperance. He believed the temperance people by their extreme views injured their own cause, and there was no doubt that some of the committees acted in a harsh and arbitrary manner. There were cases in which committees had, without the slightest consideration, utterly ruined people ; and who had gained by this ? Not the temperance advocates, but the other licensed houses in that locality. The cure for all this was to provide compensation, and he believed local bodies should pay some of that compensation. As to the argument that the Government should take up this question, every member of the Cabinet had his own views on it. He himself was in favour of compensation, but some of his colleagues were against ib. He should ask the House to carefully consider this matter, and not to be influenced by public feeling, but by a sense of justice. If it was right to take away a publican's property without compensation, it was right to take away every other man's property without compensation, and in the ca^e of obtaining possession of large estates he held that those who owned them should receive full compensation. Mr DUTHIE agreed with Mr Buick in regretting the Government had not taken up this question. He should move as an amendment — "That the bill be now withdrawn, and that the Government bring in a bill thiß session

dealing with the whole matter." He referred to the action of many of the licensing committees as a travesty on justice, which should certainly be put an end to by the Government. He could nob agree to the principle of compensation, and he thought the House should not al ow the Government to shirk their responsibility on this question. Mr SAUNDERS said that in 1877 ho was strongly of opinion that compensation should r &™ U i° Publicans, but after the acb of 1880, which declared that a license could be refused by a licensing bench without giving a reason for so doing, and after 11 3'ears experience of that acb, he thought no man was entitled to compensation. He did not think this bill met the case at all The temperance party, to his mind, defeated their object by beiug determined to go to extremes and nob lining content with receiving a littlo afc a time. One of the best ways of effecting a reform would be to close houses at an earlier hour at night. Ho should vote agaiust the bill, as he thought hotelkeepcrs and brewers wero well able to take care of themselves, and they exercised a vast amount of inQuence at election tune. Although he firmly believed in compensation for property taken away, still, with the act of 1880 beforo him, ho could not agree that any right whatever existed for compensation. The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON agreed with Mr Duthie s amendment, as the quostion was one of such largo importance that the Government should deal with it. The question of the liquor traffic was one of great controverßy between licensed victuallers ou the one hand and the temperance party on the other. He had never been a consenting party to doing what was not practical, aud if they had to-morrow total prohibition, such as had taken place at Sydenham, they would have sly drinking and an evasion of the law. Although he could not agree with the extreme views of the temperance party, he could not at tho same time admit that any compensation was duo to publicans for licenses issued during the last 15 years. As for 'tho present bill, it was very loosely drawn, and could not properly effect the object it had iv view. Mr ALLEN said the whole question in this bill was whether compensation should be given to licensed victuallers or not. They all knew publicans were not entitled to compensation at all, as his building remained his and his furniture also, his license being an annual one. Ho ventured to think there weio very few local bodies who would accept the clauso providing that they should pay this compensation. Aa the Premier had expressed himself so strongly in favour of compensation, he should like to ask him if ho would also compensate a hawker or an auctioneer who might be deprived of his license. To be logical, he should certainly advocate that course. It seemed to him that the whole bill was very wreichedly drawn, and he should vote against ib. Tho bill would scarcely please the publicans themselves, and he was sure local bodies would not approve of it. Mr SWAN considered it a wrong thing that three men on a committee should have power to confiscate a man's property. They had had impassioned addresses against the bill, which were more suited to prohibition meetings than to tho House of Representatives. He denied that tho closing of publiohouses diminished the liquor traffic, and as an instance he stated that two houses were closed in the Bush districb of Hawke's Bay, tho result of which was thab sly drinking and other evils were enormously increased. He hoped tho Houso would allow the bill to go to tho second reading. The motion for the second reading was lost on the voices. On Mr Duthie's amendment being put, Mr RHODES moved to strike out the words "this session." — Lost by 36 to 12, and the words retained. Mr Duthie's amendment was lost by 27 to 22. The following is the division list : — For (22). —Messrs Allen, Blake, Buckland, Dawson, Duncan, Duthie, Fish, Fisher, Frascr, Harkness, G. Hutchison, w. Kelly, Lake, Lawry, T. Mackenzie, Moore, Richardson, Rolleston, Russell, Swan, Taylor, Wright. Against (27).— Messrs Ballance, Buick, Cadman, Carncross, Carroll, Barnshaw, Hall-Jones, Hogg, Houston, Joyce, I. Kelly, M'Kenzie, M'Lean, Meredith, Newman, O'Conor, Palmer, Pinkerton, R. H. J. Reeves, W. P. Reeves, Rhodes, Sandford, Saunders, Secldon, Shera, Tanner, It. Thompson. No correct list of pairs is available. LANDS FOR SETTLEMENT. The bill introduced by the Minister for Lands for the acquisition of private lands for purposes of settlement provides for the appointment of a board to bo called the Board of Land Purchase Commissioners, consisting of the Surveyorgeneral, the Commissioner of Taxes, the Commissioner of Crown Lands, and TDistrict Land Registrar of the district iv which is situated any land proposed to be acquired, whose duties shall be, on the direction of the Governor, to ascertain by such means as seems to them fit the value of any land which the Governor may propose to acquire for the purjiose of this acb. All land as acquired may be paid for wholly or parbly, either by money borrowed or, with the assent of the seller, by debentures. The amount of money so expended shall not exceed L 50.000 in any one year. Tho debentures shall be for not less than LIOO, bearing 5 per cent, interest, and having a currency of not longer than 40 years. The rental of land acquired under the bill shall be at the rate of 5 per cent, for interest on the capital value of the land, and such capital value shall be fixed al a rate sufficient to cover the cost of the original acquisition of the land, together with a sufficient sum added thereto to cover the cost of survey and sutdivision, the price of so much of the land as shall be absorbed by roads and reserves on subdivision, and the estimated cost of administration. The lands are to be disposed of as provided by section 15. Lands acquired under this act, whether the same be classed as rural, suburban, or town lands, shall be disposed of under the perpetuallease system of the Land Act as herein modified in allotments not" exceeding 320 acres in area, and with no right of purchase of the freehold. The Treasurer must furnish annual accounts, and the Minister for Lands returns of settlements. MR RICHMOND'S RESIGNATION. The Hon. J. C. Richmond, whose resignation of his seat in the Council, in consequence of ill health, was announced to-day, has not been before the public much of late years, but ho occupied a prominent position in the Government of the colony during the Maori troubles on the East Coast of the North Island in 1869. Mr Richmond was at that time Native Minister of the Stafford Government, and the late Sir Donald M'Lean was Government Agent for Hawke's Bay and the Taupo district. A difference of opinion having arisen between the Government and Sir Donald (then Mr M'Lean), the latter was deprived of his office of Government Agent, a circumstance which aroused much indignation, not only in Napier but in the whole of the North Island, on account of Mr M 'Lean's thorough knowledge of Native affairs aud Native grievances, and this dispute eventually led up to tho defeat of the Stafford M inistry in 1869, and the formation of the Fox-Vogel-M'Lean Administration. One of the

first acts of the Fox Ministry, of which Mr M'Lean was Native Minister, was to appoint Mr Ormond as Government agent for the whole of the East Coast — a position which that gentleman discharged so satisfactorily that his services were publicly recognised by a resolution of the House of Representatives. THE ELECTORAL BILL. Mr J. Kelly's amendment in the Electoral Bill, that the residential qualification shall be the only one, will receive strong opposition even from the Government side of the House, and it is almost certain to be rejected. I hear tho Council is disposed to pass the bill now -that the freehold qualification is retained, and that they are just as likely to accept the woman's franchise clauses which they threw . out last session by only two votes. JOTTINGS. A return presented to-day shows that the : -amount expended under the sheep tax in the general inspection and quarantining of stock ' and destruction of rabbits was L 25.878. The • total amount collected for sheep tax, fees, and 1 for registration of brands, &c. was L 17,668. • The balance from the consolidated fund was ILBISO.