N.Z. PARLIAMENT.

Otago Witness, Issue 1651, 14 July 1883, Page 10

N.Z. PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Thursday, July 5. answers to questions. Replying to Mr Shrimski, The Hon. Mr DICK said Government had no official notice that the Education Board, | Auckland, had resolved that in future a register be kept of the religieus beliefs of all its teachers. The Act was silent on the subject of such resolution ; and although Government were not favourable to such a course being pursued, they were not clear that under the Act they could interfere to prevent this being done. Replying to Mr Duncan, The Hon. Mr ROLLESTON said that a land office proper would not be established at Oamaru, but steps would be taken to provide the district with additional information re the ale of land. Replying to Mr Steward, The Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said Government could not interfere with the rates of charges, alleged to be excessive, on the Duntroon-Haka-teramea Railway Company's bridge over the Waitaki, as such interference would give the Company a claim to compensation, and to ask that the line be taken over by Government. A purchase of that kind would involve an expenditure of £1,000,000, which Government was not prepared at present to face. Replying to Mr Pyke, The Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said correspondence bad taken place re the construction of the Otago Central railway by a private firm, but the correspondence (now produced) disclosed no definite offer by such party to undertake the work under the Railways Construction and Land Act. If any offer under that Aot waa made, Government would be prepared consider it

Replying to Mr Tole, The Hon. Mr DICK said while Government recognised the merits of Mr Pyke's handbook of local government law, they did not propose making a present of a copy of the work to each member of the Legislature. Replying to Mr Shaw, The 'Hon. Mr EtOLLESTON said that the terms under schedule 3 of " The Land Act Amendment Act 1853," providing for payment of ront in advance, were extremely liberal, and Government saw no necessity for altering the same. Replying to Capt. Morris, The Hon. Mr DICK said Government had no information as to the existence of hydrophobia in the adjoining Colonies, and if it had been at all necessary to adopt quarantine procautions they would have been bound to have had advices from the Governments of those Colonies, They had cabled for information. BILLS. The Hon. Mr DICK moved the second reading of the Patents Bill. — Carried. The Hon. Mr CONOLLY moved the second reading of the Married Women's Property Bill, He explained that it was a transcript of the Act passed by the British Legislature, with such alterations as were required by the particular situation of this Colony. He gave it as his opinion that the bill simply secured married wonien in their proper rights, and he hoped it would recommend itself to the House. Mr MONTGOMERY did not think the principle of the bill was open to objection. Mr M. W. GREEN suggested that the bill should be postponed until members had an opportunity for examining it more closely. He had been informed that it was no uncommon thing for wives, in their husbands' absence, to secure protection orders without proper cause being shown. A state of things like that was calculated to do serious injury to domestic happiness. Mr FERGUS spoke in favour of the bill as being an improvement on the present law. The bill was read a second time. IN COMMITTEE. The Bankruptcy Bill was considered in Committee. The proviso of clause 28 was struck out. Clause 31 was amended so as to allow of the sppointment of more than one assignee in a judicial district. The minimum security to be given by an assignee was reduced from £5000 to £2000. In clause 43, sub-section 3, the words " three days " were altered to " five days." Clause 45, sub-section 1, %vas amended to compel the bankrupt to file in the district in which he has resided or carried on business for the greater part of the previous six months. In clause 47 the words " fifty pounds " were inserted in place of " twenty-five pounds " as the minimum on which a debtor could be adjudged as bankrupt, by a division by 38 to 4. Clause 56 was amended that on the filing of a debtor's petition his property should vest in the assignee. Friday, July 6, The House met at 2.30 p.m. PRIVILEGE. Mr GEORGE moved the adjournment of the House to enable him to bring under notice a statement made in a paper called the Dunedin Temperance Herald, to the effect that an annual vote had to be taken for Bellamys to make up for losses sustained through members who failed to pay their accounts. As a matter of fact, the statement was entirely false. The accounts had been examined, and only on© small sum of £6 remained unpaid, that debt having been contracted by a member who died during the recess. Mr PYKE seconded the motion. The paragraph went round the Colony, and left an injurious impression on the minds of the people that the Colony had to pay for members' refreshment, which was utterly untrue. Mr MACANDREW also wished to correct tho impression that Bellamys paid no duty on liquors. That was a mistake, and he wished the public mind set right on the subject. The motion for adjournment was then withdrawn. REPLIES TO QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Steward, The Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said Government could not see its way to introduce the system of forwarding passengers' luggage in operation on the United States railways, known as the check system, as it would cost £4000 or £5000. Replying to Mr Postlethwaite, The Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said lands abutting on railway-lines had been extensively planted with timber suitable for railwaysleepers, and with wattle trees. Replying to Mr Turnbull, The Hon. Mr DICK said that Mr M'Donald, sheep inspector for South Canterbury, was found to be too old for the efficient discharge of the duties appertaining to the office, and for that reason alone Government could not reinstate him in the office. To retain him as sheep inspector would necessitate the employment of another person to perform the duties of rabbit inspector. Replying to Mr Daniel, The Hon. Mr DICK said no steps had yet been taken to give effect to the recommendation for the establishment of a naval trainingvessel, as no vote had been made for the purpose, and other difficulties had interposed. The Government schooner would shortly be available, and action would be taken. MOTIONS. The following motions were put and carried :—: — For a return of all freehsld properties in the Colony consisting of 5000 acres and upwards, specifying the acreage and owner of each property, and county in which it is situated ; also, of the total value of landed estate of such properties as returned under the property-tax valuation for 1883, and the total value of the mortgages existing thereon at the time of valuation (Mr O'Callaghan). For a return showing the total cost to date ©f railway and other works at Balclutha since the railway was first opened there, and necessitated by the damage caused by or anticipated from floods (Captain Mackenzie). THE BANKRUPTCY BILL. Clause 61, sub-section 2. — A motion was carried for striking it out on a division of 32 to 24. Sub-section 5 was amended so as to read that a proxy must be "authenticated before a J.P. oil the Colony, a solicitor of the Supreme Court, or a postmaster," instead of the words "authenticated to the satisfaction of the assignee." The clause as amended passed. THE BANKRUPTCY BILL was further considered in Committee. Clause 78. Mr PEACOCK moved that in the event of a settlement being made on the wife and children within a period of three years of the settler being adjudicated a bankrupt, he Bhould be bound to show that he was solvent at the time the settlement was made, and able to pay his debts without having recourse to the property so settled. Lost on the voices. Clause 7§. Mr SH A W < objected to the provision that on a debtor making payment or giving satisfac-

tion, and then becoming bankrupt within three ' months, the creditors should be bound to re- I fund. Mr FISH defended the clauses, arguing that it would provide a wholesome restraint against fraudulent preferences, &o often given on the eve of bankruptcy. Mr SHAW contended that ib was not so much voluntary, bub compulsory payments that were, aimed at by the clause. The clause passed uh punted. Clause SI. Mr J3ARRON moved that the clause read 11 Bills of sale will be void as against the assignee if they have been executed or registered within six months or three months" (*ic). Mr DX LAUTOUR suggested that a proviso should be addod that bills of sale shall have no effect until registered. Mr FISH suggested to make the clause " executed and registered." The clause was allowed to read "executed ! and legistered six months before bankruptcy." On the motion of Mr SMITH, clause 94 was altered to read, "After the expiration of six months," &c. On clause 95, Mr PEACOCK asked Government if they had any objection to re-ca^ting the clause so that a debtor could be arrested by telegraph message. Mr SHAW pointed out that creditors had sufficient power to arrest by telegraph message. They had only to allege their conviction that a debtor had been guilty of concealing property. The clause passed as printed. Clause 139.— Preferential claims were allowed for rates and taxes for six months, and artisans and labourers' wages for three months. Clause J155, sub-section 2. — Motion made to make it read " if a sufficient number of creditors appeared either by themselves or by proxy, then a certificate nhould issue that the bankrupt had duly surrendered his property, and that in the assignee's opinion there was no further occasion for the services of the Bank- | ruptcy Court." Mr DE LAUTOUR objectpd, pointing out that it would virtually place the discharge in the hands of the assignee, whereas the tenor of the bill was to leave the question for decision by the judges. The Hon. Mr CONOLLY concurred in that view, and the motion not being pressed, the clause passed as printed. Clause 157 was struck out. Clause 161. Mr PEACOCK moved that there should bo grades of certificates of discharge. It was agreed to bring on the siiggestion as a separate clause. The clause passed as printed. Clause 166 was struck out. Clause 172. Mr FITZGERALD moved that all criminal prosecutions should be defrayed by the Crown, and no portion thereof defrayed out of the estate. Question put that the clause pass as printed. Ayes, 23 ; noes, 17. Clause passed as printed. Progress waa reported, and the House adjourned at 12.10 a.m. Tuesday, July 10. replies to questions. Replying to Mr Steward, The Hon. Mr JOHNSTON said steps would be taken for bringing into operation a system of compulsory insurance among railway employes, and the proposals would be explained before the close of the session. Replying to Mr Sutton, The Hon. Major ATKINSON said Government had under consideration the propriety of introducing a bill to alter the law affecting the vesting in local bodies of lands opened up as roads and streets, and to obviate the necessity for obtaining conveyances in favour of local bodies. Replying to Captain Mackenzie, The Hon. Mr CONOLLY said he would be prepared to confor with him a3 to the necessity for a sitting of the R.M. Court at Wyndham. MOTIONS CARRIED. The following resolutions were adopted :—: — By Mr FISH : For a return showing the acreage and situation of all reserves or endowments of land in the North Island, Nelson, and Westland made for the purposes of secondary or university education ; also the body or bodies under whose management or control such reserves or endowments are, euch return to show as far as possible the revenue derivable from such reserves or endowments ; further, to show the money grants made in aid of the above purposes, &c. NOTICE OF MOTION. Sir G. GREY gave notice to move the following on going into Supply :— " That this House regrets that the Government has expressed its intention not to make any pro- | posals to deal with lands specially benefited or advantaged by the construction of railways in ' so far as such benefits or advantages have accrued in the past, as in the opinion of this | House the principle of taxing all property increased in value by the construction with the public money of railways, roads, bridges, harbours, and other works is just." The proceedings were here interrupted by the 5.30 adjournment. Evbning Sitting. The House resumed at 7.30. LOCAL GOVERNMENT. Mr MONTGOMERY moved— "(l) That the existing system of Central Government has failed to realise the results anticipated, and that the promises and engagements made at the time of abolition of the provinces have not been fulfilled. (2) That in consequence of the centralising policy much discontent prevails throughout New Zealand. (3) That to ensure economy and efficiency in the administration of local affairs, it is necessary that all such local affairs, including public works, should be withdrawn from the control of the Central Government and vested in local governing bodies, elected by districts having community of interests." He wished to be understood that whatever the decision might be that night, he did not intend to let the subject drop. He would briefly state how, in his opinion, a change, and a great change, was necessary. He asked, them to revert to the time before 1874 and the commencement of that year's session, Everything bore an aspect of progress and prosperity. The Treasurer then proposed to relieve the provinces of certain burdens. The power of the Central Government was then unlimited, while the Provincial Governments were limited, and he had no doubt the powers of the former were employed to subvert the latter. The Treasurer's statement referred to above was well received, but between the date of its delivery and the 11th of August following a change took place in the general tone of affairs. It was then proposed to do away with Provincialism in the North Island, the resolution to that effect being carefully framed to mislead them. At that time it was distinctly stated that there was no purpose of taking the land revenue of either Island for the purpose of carrying out their railway policy. That was the distinct pledge and understanding, and he would show how it was carried out. A subsequent resolution

was passed affirming the principle of local selfgovernment with substantial endowments. These endowments, however, when they came to be sought for could nowhere be found. Subsequently the pound-for-pound subsidy was provided for. That was the policy upon which the Government went to the country and asked for abolition. If ho could show that that policy was broken, then his first rerolntion wa-> provpd. A new House met in 1876, elected upon that policy. No sooner did it meet than a Financial Arrangements Bill, modifying the financial proposals of the preceding years was brought in, and in a variety of other ways the policy was broken. Then again, the pound-for-pound subsidy was limited for five years, and this agreement was broken. The policy of abolition having been broken in this way, the conditions of his resolution were good. In 1877 a financial crisis was imminent, and to meet this a large proportion of the land fund of the Middle Island was appropriated. About this time there was heavy speculation in land in Canterbury, and its Treasury was full, and that fact saved the Colony for the time being. That crisis came in 1879, and at that time Treasury bills for a heavy sum, issued for temporary purposes, were added to the permanent dobt. More than that, a heavy burden of extra taxation had to be put on. All this was the result of the_ central system of Government. Then, again, the matter of roads and bridges was not to be heard of in Parliament after abolition : but what did they find? When the Grey Government went into office they found a list of roads and bridges expenditure required for paits all over the Colony, varying in amount from £120 to £10,000. These promises had to be made to keep the Government in office. Again, in nine years they had increased' the general and local debt of the Colony by £17,000,000 of money. Last year the revenue couid not meet the expenditure by a sum of £168,000, and additional taxation had to be resorted to. The Land Fund had been swept away, and the local bodies were without funds. Instead of the roads and bridges not being heard of in the House, they had now become a subject of barter in it. Having proved the breaking of their promises, he contended that he had established the first clause of his resolution. As regarded the second, it did not require any argument. There was not a member in the House but knew that no redress could be got in any appeal he might make to Wellington. Everything had to be supervised in Wellington down to the smallest disbursement. He would leave members from country districts to say if what he stated was notthetruth. If members thought fit they could pass the first, and not the second affirmation in the resolution. He asked what could the people of Auckland know about the requirements of Ofcago or Ofcago, about Auckland? What did the South Island know about the Native expenditure in the North Island ? The Government simply asked for a sum of money, and it had to be given. They were sent there by their constituents, and were expected to look into such transactions, and yet there they were voting away the public money blindly. As a Parliament they were peculiarly situated. They were kept there during the whole sr.ssion, and, as it were, imprisoned in Wellington. That was a great hardship to members, and yet it could not be avoided so long as things remained as :it present. The resolution he proposed aimed at relieving that state of matters. The Central Government should deal with customs, postal, telegraphs, education, law, land, defence, &c. Local bodieb should be elected by the people having community of interests. They should administer the Land and Education Acts, police, gaols, charitable aid, and have the administration oi railways. He had kept as near as possible to the lines laid down by the British Parliament in granting them their Constitution. Then the session of Parliament need not exceed a month or six weeks. Otago, Canterbury, and Westland he consdered to have a community of interests, and should form one province, having a governing body. The Cook Straits settlements, by which was meant Nelson, Marlborough, Taranaki, and Wellington, would together form a second province, and the rest of the North Island a" third ; although there might be a difficulty in uniting Hawke's Bay with Auckland, and he would not like to coerce thorn. He saw no difficulty in bringing about a division of local and general finance. To be effective the local bodies must have power to tax themselves. He did not, however, propoee to go into a scheme of finance. He had gone into the question, and he would say there was no difficulty, nor could there be any difficulty, on that score. He thought he was in accord with those members who generally voted with him. The public mind of New Zealand was ready for the change, but he would not say that it should be given effect to suddenly. He would propose that it should be embodied in a bill and held over for the general electiou. The Hon. Major ATKINSON said abolition had evidently affected the morality of Mr Montgomery, as he professed to follow the course pursued in Abolition. They had been told for years back about a great change being impending, but that change had not yet; been brought about. Where was the load of petitions with which the table of the House was to groan ? They had never come. The Government of the day spoke the mind of the people in Abolition, and the Opposition represented nothing. The Government submitted questions and bills, and the people endorsed these when they gave effect to Abolition ; and again, they had returned the Government that suggested Abolition, and retained it in power to the present day. It was unfortunate that transaction had been traced back to 1874, as what was then done had been apnroved by the people. They had been told ti at every obstacle was thrown in the way of Provincialism, and yet it was.a fact that the Government of the day was kept in office by the Provincial party. It was in 1874 that the large Provincial Loan Bill was brought forward, and when that failed what was popularly known as the " nine small pigs," or separate Provincial Borrowing Bills, were brought in. It was at that time that it was found impossible in the interest of the Colony to carry on longer under the Provincial form of government. Sir J. Vogel, in proposing abolition, did a noble and patriotic act, equal to Sir R. Peel's in repealing the corn laws. The Abolition Act never promised, as had been alleged, that hospitals and charitable aid should be placed permanently on the Consolidated Fund. What was promised was that they should be so placed on the Consolidated Revenue pending further arrangements. The Act of Abolition was confirmed by the people, who returned a Parliament which said that this Act should not be repealed. The case against abolition was put as strongly as possible to the people and vet the Act was confirmed. When the new Parliament met no attempt was made to repeal the Act, and there it Btands in the statute-book to the present day. The Financial Arrangements Act never would have been passed had not the promises in the Abolition Act been faithfully carried out. They had been told that the pound-for-pound sub9idy > under the financial scheme had not been carried out. The reason of that was that the Abolition Government had been ejected from office and the Grey Go-

vernrcent asumed office. The land fund was also seized by that Government to avert the financial crisis referred to by Mr Montgomery He quoted from the Financial Statement delivered by the Treasurer of that day in support Dt this statement. The difficulties of 1879 and the deficiency of revenue over expenditure were a result of the finance of the Grey Government, winch Mr Montgomery suppoitud. The statement, that thy revenue last year was not sufHofonfc to pay the expenditure waa a fact, but they had to bear in mind that they relieved the Colony of a heavy burden of taxation in that year, charged defence to revenue, and paid £270,000 for sinking fund. These facts had to be bore in mind when they were told their revenue had not equalled their expenditure. Mr contended that Mr Montgomery had entirely failed to show that any of the abolition promises had remained unredeemed. He was proud to belong to a party. He sank minor differences in order to carry out general principles. Despite the fact that Mr Montgomery affected to sneer at what he termed solid voting, that was a complaint which could under no circumstances be made against the party Mr Montnomery" represented. This resolution was only the re-echo of a demand that had been made session after session, and made by men many of whom had from time to time dropped out of the ranks of the representatives, thereby affording additional evidence of the fact that their sentiments were not shared in by any great section of the people. There was also, it was noteworthy, no petition on the table demanding this change. It had been said that time had been taken up with petty debates. His experience had been in quite an opposite direction. Their time was taken up mostly in considering proposals for promoting the interests of the whole human raoe. He asked what community of interest existed between Greymouth and Stewart's Island, these two places being included in the combination of Otago, Canterbury, and Westland. What would the position of Invercavgill be with the seat of Government in either Hokitika or Christchurch ? The Central Government had to consider the interests of the whole Colony, and the more they thought of the matter the more it would be shown that Wellington was the natural centve from which the Colony could best be governed. He ventured to say that when they came to inquire of the people themselves they would find that each district looked upon its own community of interests as separate and distinct, and that they were perfectly content to remain as they are. If these counties were allowed to separate as they thought fit as Hawke's Bay was to be, then he ventured to think they would break up into just about as many provincial councils as there were now county councils. The tendency of the day was not to conjoin these bodies, 'bufr to' separate amongst themselves, as they could spend their revenues to better advantage in small counties. Public works and railways were to be placed under control of the local bodies. How was that to be done? Was each locality to be charged for its own particular area? They onght to have been told how it was possible to work out a proposal of that kind. Then how was the future of the local works to be provided for? Were local bodies to be clothed with borrowing powers for the purpose? To establish the system proposed would not only be an expense of £159,000, but it would cost half a million more than the cost at present 4 He said that from some experience of the ex pense of establishing local governments. The panacea for all this was to be unlimited local powers. He ventured to say the localities would not thank them for such a very questionable boon. As matters stood they had one of the most complete systems of loaal self-government in the world. If there were any further powers to be given the local bodies, and that fact could be shown to him, he would be the first to say let them be given. As a matter of fact the taxation at the present time, deducting the education tax, was 2s 34d per head less now than it was in 1876, when abolition was carried out. On male adults it had only increased 7s per head. Again, the spending power of the people was even greater now than it was in 1876. The settlement and' administration of the land would likewise compare favourably now with what it was in 1876. Provincial institutions were abolished because they had become too complete to admit of different laws being set up with mere imaginary lines between them. Mr Montgomery had failed entirely in proving any one of the propositions in his resolution The people had a General Government, and did not' require anything more than they had. Sir GEORGE GREY denied the assertion that no discontent existed in the Colony. He denied that such was the case. The question he would deal with was one broached during the debate— viz., the poor of the land The Government and its friends had worked hard, and worked successfully, to make great poverty in the place. Large landed estates had been given away by the continuous Government, while taxation of the country was levied on the labouring classes, ■ Was it not true that Ministers assisted in handing over one great block— the Patetere— without adequate return? And having the great value of these and other estates similarly acquired by the carrying out of public works, they now got the labouring classes to defray the taxation of the country. The Treasurer had said that they had a community of interests. That was not true." He and his friends had a community of interests ' and they took good care to maintain it amongst themselves. There could be no community of interests between the inhabitants of the extreme North and South. It was the very essence of good government that districts having different geographical interests and having a variety of climates should be allowed to legislate for themselves. That was the fundamental principle of Rood government; and the idea of different laws existing on different sides of an imaginary line was scouted by the Treasurer. The Government kept back all information, although repeatedly asked for, as to the extent of the large estates acquired in this wav by their friends in the South Island, and yet the Treasurer had spoken as he did that night They could not go into a small landowner's house or cottage but it was found that a deep sense of injury existed. 'The Press and the Uvil bervipe were largely in the hands or under the influence of Government, and by that means the real facts of these abuses were carefully concealed. It was, to his mind quite possible that the whole legislation of the Colony might pass into the hands of one family. That was only allegory (?). The Treasurer might laugh, but there was a feeling in the human breast of this kind which could not be got over. He denied that abolition had been accomplished by the wish of the people through their representatives. It was gained by an undue preponderance at such places as Caranaki and Hawke's Bay. The Treasurer knew that, and he ought not to have misled the House. Taxation did not fall as had been alleged by the Treasurer. It fell more heavily upon the working classes than on the wealthy classes. By adopting the resolution, he believed a fairer system of taxation could be adopted. It was incredible to him that small farmers in the North, who never benefited by the Public Works expendi-

1 » ture, should he taxed to pay the interest on those loans. He defended Sir A. Gordon and Mr Rusden from the accusations made in certain newspapers. It was the duty of the Native Minister at once to interfere in the matter of Native land legislation. Things had got to that pass when this must be done. He had no right to allow a private member to bring forward resolutions on the subject of Native land reform. Government ought to lead in the matter, and not a single day should be lost in putting an end to the abuses in the Native Land Courts.

Mr TURNBULL complained of the tone assumed by the Treasurer. No man had done more to lower the tone of the House generally than the Treasurer. He had himself taken an active part in the abolition of the provinces, but he had since seen cause to change his mind. One of his chief reasons for supporting abolition was the fact of so many Superintendents of provinces being members of Parliament. Had a law been passed prohibiting Superintendents sitting in Parliament, and giving only a proportion of the land fund to the provinces, that would have cured all his objections to Provincialism. The country was on the brink of a great crisis. They had about got to the end of their borrowed capital, and that would bring things to their level. He intended, when the ' Estimates came on for debate, to move that ' they be referred back to Government for reconsideration, as he did not think the country . could possibly support the heavy drain going ©n in its present expenditure. Mr J. W. THOMSON moved that the de- ' bate be adjourned till Thursday. The Hon. Major ATKINSON moved that it be adjourned till to-morrow. After the turn the debate had taken, he thought it should not be delayed a single day. Mr MACANDREW did not think it was to be understood as a party question. Therefore, there was no need for the hurry. Mr JOYCE said that the compact entered into by the Canterbury men had taken the life out of the debate. Under these circumstances, fchere was no use prolonging tha debate. Mr Montgomery should be content now he had , placed his views before the country. He would not consider the question of reviving Provincialism, but was prepared to face that of Separation. Mr LEVESTAM said the debate should go on. The issue was well known. Still, they should have this compact question out. They were told one thing in the Public Works Statement, and he held that a different programme had since been entered into by the Government in connection with Canterbury. The amendment for adjournment till tomorrow was put and carried. ! The House rose at 12.15 a.m.